Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
Hexagram one, the Creative, is not to do with ability - it's the primal power so all the lines concern that primal power.
Fine, Trojina, the next time Yi gives me 1.6 I'll abdicate all responsibility and say it's not me, it's some dragon.
And what, pray tell, is a human being with primal power flowing through them to such a degree that they are recognizable by others, as something that stands out, called?
A dragon
How'd you know I was standing back here? :]
I have agreed we do usually take the dragon to be ourselves in line 6. That doesn't make the dragon in the lines people.
I probably can't go any further with this line of thinking where others do not know what I am on about.
Not at all. The constellation one is dragon-agnostic, and the other one requires a dragon sleeping in the lake to be woken up.The third way is to take it that there were dragons. I mean all the theories you cite are based on not believing in dragons, actual dragons.
Indeed... which makes things interesting in line 3.If it wasn't a dragon it wouldn't be called a dragon.
...bearing in mind that 1.6 changes to 43...* when I say I 'won't have' it is a manner of speech rather than a command
I never heard of a person being called a dragon ?
This does not make logical sense. Line 6 is a line just like the other lines.
What about my office example, line 1?
I never heard of a person being called a dragon ? There is a TV show called 'Dragon's Den' where very rich people dole out cash or not to entrepreneurs
(side note: The western use of Lion in reference to a person is like Yi's use of Tiger)Moss elk: (why can't I erase your name! arg)
Yes! it's simply that then.
Here is an example to understand a tiger vs a dragon.
A thug, hooligan, or general A-hole may very well be a Tiger, but when they encounter a Dragon (let's say a real martial art master, not mma for heavens sake) , they ususally don't even know it, unless they make the mistake of engaging the dragon. There is a degree of power in a dragon that is a truly a 'level above' from a tiger, the tiger may take a nap without the dragon breaking a sweat.
Dragons den....
Ok! so now we have to distinguish between Western and Eastern dragons!
The u.s. version of that show is called
"shark tank' and those people are not dragons, only tigers/wolves.
Western Dragons and Eastern Dragons have nothing to do with each other.
One is stories based on finding dino fossils and speculating, the other is about a natural phenomenon seen in heaven.
what Carol Anthony says about line 1.
if anyone feels they haven't done enough indignant sputtering lately
I am completely on board with 1 being a powerful force. Back to Moss Elk:I'm not saying that in a reading a dragon may not manifest as a person or situation, although I think it will always probably be more than that in hexagram 1.
When we are at our best and brightest,
are we not also magical beings?
Same thing could be said about anything in the I Ching. I got 14.2 yesterday, "A great chariot to carry loads," about my cat's follow-up vet appointment. Same thing: the appointment is a manifestation of a great chariot, but "great chariot" is not defined by vet appointments.One minute I'm talking about how I perceive the dragon in hexagram one and the next I'm being told to account for your office reading. I have cast hexagram 1 countless times in my life you know. You are misunderstanding thinking that I'm saying a dragon cannot be anything in one's life such as a person/situation in readings. I'm not saying that but that all those things are a manifestation of the Creative which can use anything but not be defined by those things.
Not me.Western Dragons and Eastern Dragons have nothing to do with each other.
One is stories based on finding dino fossils and speculating, the other is about a natural phenomenon seen in heaven.
Quotation from the Dazhuan, trans. Lynn, on line 1:
'A submerged dragon does not act. What does this mean? The Master says, "This refers to one who has a dragon's virtue yet remains hidden. He neither changes to suit the world nor seeks fulfillment in fame. ...He who is resolute in his unwillingness to be uprooted, this is a submerged dragon."'
And for line 2:
'The Master says, "This refers to one who has a dragon's virtue and has achieved rectitude and centrality. He is trustworthy in ordinary speech and prudent in ordinary conduct..."'
And so on. So the tradition of regarding these dragons as people with dragon-virtues is at least that old.
Did Trojina say that about Western vs Eastern dragons, or is that a post formatting snafu? In any case, if anyone feels they haven't done enough indignant sputtering lately, here is what Carol Anthony says about line 1. Not everything she says, because this goes on literally for three pages and I can think of things I'd rather do than type it all out, like extract my own teeth with pliers, but anyway...
"Line 1. Hidden dragon. Do not act.
In the broad and general sense, the "hidden dragon" refers to the collective ego, which has presented its institutions and values as "the only source of solutions." This idea serves to divert people from recognizing its dragon nature, and obscures the fact that the Cosmos is the true source of all their needs.
In the particular sense, the "hidden dragon" indicates the presence of demonic influences in the situation being referred to. These influences can be back-of-the-mind thoughts that are generated by ego considerations. They can also come from a projection, spell or poison arrow."
And so on.
I know, apologies.Moss Elk you misquoted me I didn't say this, where did you get it from
Not me.
Again, same as everything else. If Yi describes someone with 50, it doesn't mean they're literally a cauldron. They're metaphorically a cauldron (in that reading).These quotes talk about a person with dragon's virtues which is not the same thing as being the dragon.
Again, same as everything else. If Yi describes someone with 50, it doesn't mean they're literally a cauldron. They're metaphorically a cauldron (in that reading).
I don't think dragons are people nor metaphors for people, I kind of find that a travesty
I see what you mean, I guess... but isn't it an unexpressed understanding that the text she's writing about was meant to be oracular, even if she's not discussing a reading example? The whole point of dissecting the text is then to use what is learned in readings. (Probably not saying this right.)Read Hilary's blog again. She doesn't know who is leaping in line 4 - that is just looking at the line itself separate from any reading
Yes, of course, sorry for being misinterpretable.
(later - oh wait, you weren't fussing at us for sputtering, you were joining in - sorry...)
True... the Dazhuan doesn't get much of a look in in general. But it's worth reading anyway. (Wilhelm, Book II.) The received wisdom is that the 'Master' in those passages is Confucius, but I prefer Karcher's idea that these are records of readings by a master diviner. That makes them maybe a bit less universal, but more alive.Never heard about dragon's virtues before, there doesn't seem to be much said about them. I mean you've shown ethese quotes but in general there's little ever said on the forum about dragon's virtues.
True. But it has the advantage that once you've read one line interpretation, you can more or less guess what the rest will be about.Bloody Hell
She won't stop until everyone's egos are hung drawn and quartered.
Ah. Hm. Do hexagrams and their images mean things independently of readings? Discuss.the dragon as written of in the lines INDEPENDENTLY of readings
I just did.Ah. Hm. Do hexagrams and their images mean things independently of readings? Discuss.
At the very least you never said you weren't talking about readings. (Unless I missed that, in which case I'm sorry.)
Ah. Hm. Do hexagrams and their images mean things independently of readings? Discuss.
I'm not enjoying this
I’ve been having another look at the mysterious fourth line of Hexagram 1, Creative Force:
A story of dragons
This line is generally understood to be part of the story that begins in line 1, with the dragon still asleep underwater,
and culminates in line 5 with the dragon in full flight,
Then the dragon overreaches in line 6, and all six dragons take flight without a leader when all six lines are changing.
There are two ways of understanding the dragon. The more widely-accepted view is that this is the Azure Dragon asterism: a giant group of constellations that begins to rise above the horizon at the beginning of spring, and is in full view at the height of the year.
So the dragon is first sleeping below the horizon, and hence beneath the waters that were thought to surround the habitable world –
Then the first star of its horn appears just over the fields at nightfall, and it’s time to work together (zhi 13) and prepare for the growing season –
And then (after line 3, which is about the noble one instead of the dragon), comes:
By April, the dragon’s horn and neck are clearly visible above the horizon, and the rest of its body is coming into view. It’s arranged almost vertically, and so appears to be ‘leaping’ straight up from the watery abyss below the world.
S.J. Marshall has another take, and though he offers it as an alternative to the star-dragon, I see no reason why the two shouldn’t co-exist. He describes how dragons slept in pools in the mountains over winter, until, at the first sign of clouds gathering in spring, the people rushed to the pool to wake them with offerings, noise and aggravations. The rain would only fall once the dragon took flight. So at line 4, there’s a glimpse of something rising from the pool to the clouds – and when it reaches them, in line 5, we’ll have rain.
‘Someone’?
The odd thing – or at least, I find it odd – is that this line doesn’t mention dragons. Lines 1,2,5 and 6 straightforwardly name the dragon, but not line 4. Someone is leaping, or maybe there’s leaping. How come?
Marshall’s story of the dragon in the mountain pool might explain it:
A mostly-invisible, barely-glimpsed dragon would create this kind of uncertainty.
Here’s another possibility, though. If you look through the Songs (the Shijing) for ‘leaping in the abyss’, you find Song 239, celebrating the joys of a prosperous country with a good prince. Among its signs of prosperity and harmony:
The ‘leaping’ and ‘deep’ are the same words as in 1.4. Fish leap in the abyss, too.
Leaping carp
A Chinese folktale tells how, once a year in the third month of spring, the carp swim up the Yellow River to the foot of the mountains, where there is a waterfall called Dragon Gate. If they can leap the falls, they will be transformed into a dragon – and when the first fish makes the leap, the rains come. So we have…
- leaping from the pool,
- the possibility of attaining a whole new level of being
- at roughly the same time of year that the dragon constellation rises vertically from the horizon,
- becoming a dragon,
- and bringing rain.
(For more detail, see these two Wikipedia articles. And a little way down this page, you’ll find a lovely video of the story.)
More about the leap…
The carp’s leap is said to represent a sudden rise in social status, especially from passing the imperial examination. (Work hard in school, and you’ll get on in life!) The Yi is older than the imperial examination, of course, and has more to say with this line, but who’s to say how long carp have been attempting the dragon gate?
The leaping carp is moving up into a higher realm, much as the fourth line moves up a level into the upper trigram. This is the original ‘line 4 moment’: going from theory to practice, testing your strength and exploring the possibilities – though you’re not quite sure yet what they are.
A natural and traditional view is that the recipient of this hexagram should imagine themselves as the dragon, and that at line 4 they might move out into public life. Or, equally, they might not: there is hesitancy, and the wise querent will pay attention to right timing. The Wenyan (the seventh Wing) says,
Ah. Hm. Do hexagrams and their images mean things independently of readings? Discuss.
How about this? :]
It's, oddly, satisfying.
That was a happy dance at the start.
True. But should I - is this a real thing? Yi speaks and means things in readings. Each time it responds with 1.2, it means something subtly different. All those meanings have some commonality, and so I can write blog posts about that, but how much real existence do those ideas have?You commonly discuss hexagrams and their images in your blogs independently of readings....as in this one see above and in most others.
In most blogs you start by talking about the hexagram and it's images without readings like here
The story of Shock | I Ching with Clarity (onlineclarity.co.uk)
So in answer to your question, yes you do it all the time in pretty much every blog post. I'm puzzled as to why you'd ask given it's something you do all the time.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).