Blog post: Not Knowing and Protection

[hilary]

One of the meanings of Hexagram 4, Not Knowing, is being ‘covered over’, like a young animal whose mother hides it in the undergrowth. This means you can’t see as far as you’d like to, something which people tend to find frustrating - and yet the image of the young creature in the undergrowth, to say nothing of the sheltering mountain above the stream, implies that this ignorance is somehow protective.

As a child of the Enlightenment (the 18th century Western one, I mean), I find it very hard to wrap my mind round the idea of being kept in the dark for my own good. This (amongst other things) makes me glad of Mark Silver, who’s written a blog post about how to receive guidance. He’s writing about business decisions specifically, and may not know that he’s also writing about Hexagram 4 (see the part about the ‘divine fence’) and providing good food for thought for*anyone who’s ever consulted an oracle. I especially like his suggestion for a change of question - from*’What to do about this?’ to ‘What would a healthy relationship with this look like?’

 

[heylise]

THANKS!!
Good hexagram-4 advice!

 

[meng]

A small glass of water is easily contaminated.

 

[meng]

As a child of the Enlightenment (the 18th century Western one, I mean), I find it very hard to wrap my mind round the idea of being kept in the dark for my own good.

What new thing isn't kept in the dark for its own good?

 

[pantherpanther]

A wise parent or teacher may add darkness to light so the stars will appear.

 

[meng]

Have training wheels been mentioned?

 

[hilary]

Hm - maybe I should explain the part about finding it hard to take? It goes like this:
"I want to learn."
"Nuh-huh. You don't need to know. You wouldn't be any good at knowing. Don't go doing those funny scientific experiments, you'll only get the wrong ideas. There are some things that are just too important for you to understand by yourself. Listen to your priest. He knows, and he'll tell you the answers."

And then along comes the Enlightenment to challenge all that, and we end up with modern medicine and space travel and suchlikes.

But it occurs to me that the dialogue in Hexagram 4 is more or less the opposite of that -
"I want to know - tell me the answers!"
"Nuh-huh. You don't need to know, you need to learn. Don't expect me to tell you the answers; go and do some of those funny scientific experiments."

Maybe staying in the dark protects your own capacity to learn?

 

[Trojina]

maybe some things aren't known by any entity anywhere including the Yi. Its not a case of being kept in the dark, that idea pressupposes there is an authority somewhere wishing to keep you in the dark and making a conscious decision that not knowing is really good for you. Some kind of authority figure like you said a priest or whatever but what if hex 4 is simply 'this isn't known'. From my experience i find it way more to be that way, you don't know because it isn't known as in if life is an ongoing process of creation, including your own life, then why would you think there is this thing that knows already and is just choosing to withold the truth from you.

IOW I think Hilary you are sort of creating the authority figure yourself that you wish to kick against keeping you in the dark but there may be no such authority. I think 4 is often just 'you won't know till you do it' and neither does the entity (?) of the Yi know. I see 4 as encouraging the experimental otherwise theres no other way to learn. Maybe 4 is for first hand learning not second hand as in 26, learning from previous authorities

Might come down to whether you see your future more as being a process of creation or a process of discovery or how you see these overlapping.

 

[solun]

everyone finds their own darkness and their own light.
a teacher knows only this, and little more maybe
this or that may be presented if one is a good teacher, but to impose a closed spirit of intention motivated by ego or the darkened self is ... well, it happens i guess, doesn't it?

I think if someone wants to learn, they will be their own teacher
physician, heal thyself.

we all mistrust the unknown, but until we trust it, that there is what we seek out there, there is a manifestation of our vision coming through our consciousness, we can attain the truth we seek, or some answer to the question - this is faith, and the answers can come through an oracle or teacher, but we are ultimately the spirit of our own learning and progress. We have the right to not know, to be innocent, incomplete, explorers. And we have the privilege of believing in protection from something beyond us.
Belief is a form of knowledge. And all knowledge evolves as beliefs do.

I think 4 is about having faith in the unknown, and trust
But if we are old and cynical and bitter and faithless, then what's new? nothing. only when childlike innocence begins to evolve out of it's experience of innocence can it learn, but it is still young, and should have a teacher it respects enough to be modest before it.
There is wisdom and knowledge in the human experience, have faith in it. Have faith in the validity of our journey, the importance of your own discoveries. We aren't learning to become parrots or carbon copies of one another, or all would be petunias, no, there are roses and wildflowers and much much more.

But we do need to immerse our selves in something of a fertile or creative character, in which we can grow.
We have to be humble, genuinely. I will always be a child, not knowing, but I do think this innocence protects us from darkeness which may or may not be there because we are not conscious of it. It's the nature of growth, where there is a seed coat, and when the seedling is strong enough and adapts to it's environment it sheds the protective covering as it grows.

 

[solun]

and the light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness cannot overcome it - biblical proverb

 

[pantherpanther]

Hexagram 4 is addressed to "a youth," that is, the attitude of an irresponsible youth. The I Ching says, "Fine, but you have to learn how to pay to learn. Here's how to learn."?

 

[maremaria]

Hexagram 4 is addressed to "a youth," that is, the attitude of an irresponsible youth. The I Ching says, "Fine, but you have to learn how to pay to learn. Here's how to learn."?

Can you explain a bit more what you mean?

 

[pantherpanther]

Can you explain a bit more what you mean?

I thought when I wrote "Hexagram 4 is addressed to "a youth," that is, the attitude of an irresponsible youth. The I Ching says, "Fine, but you have to learn how to pay to learn. Here's how to learn."? that I was simply condensing the essence of Wilhelm's text . It's focus seems to be about dealing with the conflict of reason and passion, what President Obama has called "teaching moments" when he has sought to resolve divisiveness in the public square.

One part of it:

In this hexagram we are reminded of youth and folly in two different ways.
The image of the upper trigram, Kên, is the mountain, that of the lower,
K'an, is water; the spring rising at the foot of the mountain is the image of
inexperienced youth. Keeping still is the attribute of the upper trigram; that of
the lower is the abyss, danger. Stopping in perplexity on the brink of a
dangerous abyss is a symbol of the folly of youth. However, the two trigrams
also show the way of overcoming the follies of youth. Water is something
that of necessity flows on. When the spring gushes forth, it does not know at
first where it will go. But its steady flow fills up the deep place blocking its
progress, and success is attained.

The lines counsel how to behave, concluding ,° Six in the fifth place means:
Childlike folly brings good fortune.

An inexperienced person who seeks instruction in a childlike and
unassuming way is on the right path, for the man devoid of arrogance who
subordinated himself to his teacher will certainly be helped.

Nine at the top means:
In punishing folly
It does not further one
To commit transgressions.
The only thing that furthers
Is to prevent transgressions.

Sometimes an incorrigible fool must be punished. He who will not heed will
be made to feel. This punishment is quite different from a preliminary
shaking up. But the penalty should not be imposed in anger; it must be
restricted to an objective guarding against unjustified excesses. Punishment
is never an end in itself but serves merely to restore order.
This applies not only in regard to education but also in regard to the
measures taken by a government against a populace guilty of transgressions.
Governmental interference should always be merely preventive and should
have as its sole aim the establishment of public security and peace.

 

[hilary]

maybe some things aren't known by any entity anywhere including the Yi. Its not a case of being kept in the dark, that idea pressupposes there is an authority somewhere wishing to keep you in the dark and making a conscious decision that not knowing is really good for you. Some kind of authority figure like you said a priest or whatever but what if hex 4 is simply 'this isn't known'. From my experience i find it way more to be that way, you don't know because it isn't known as in if life is an ongoing process of creation, including your own life, then why would you think there is this thing that knows already and is just choosing to withold the truth from you.

IOW I think Hilary you are sort of creating the authority figure yourself that you wish to kick against keeping you in the dark but there may be no such authority. I think 4 is often just 'you won't know till you do it' and neither does the entity (?) of the Yi know. I see 4 as encouraging the experimental otherwise theres no other way to learn. Maybe 4 is for first hand learning not second hand as in 26, learning from previous authorities

Might come down to whether you see your future more as being a process of creation or a process of discovery or how you see these overlapping.

You could have a point. eek

Mind you, I find 29 is often a 'the answer/ certainty/ solidity you're asking for just doesn't exist' kind of response. 4 has some other reasons - fr'instance, you're trying to collect knowledge like stamps, and that's not the way you'll ever actually understand anything. Doesn't mean there's nothing there to be known.

(Am I even faintly coherent? I should have spent the day writing up hexagram 11, and instead I've spent the whole - blinking - day grinding my teeth over line 2. Beating head on wall for hours, not good for brains. )

 

[fkegan]

Hi Hilary,

Hexagram 4 in terms of trigrams is about the artesian spring that forms in the valley under a tall mountain showing the power of that mountain to animate or energize the rain water to become a spring or even a fountain. It is that interaction of water and topography that is the initial condition for the Water Cycle of the first decad.

The ideogram for the Chinese name of this hexagram is a picture of a pig under a roof a reference to the traditional practice of putting a pig into a pit under the house for "training" by being kept there and fed upon garbage and sewage until it grew up to be food.

Gia-fu named this hexagram "Ignorance"; for my Flux Tome names I prefer Pupil (or Pupal) referring to either a student being educated or a caterpillar being transformed in the chrysalis from its pupal stage to the butterfly.

In any event, hexagram 4 is all about the need for education or relationship with older and wiser hands to put youth's raw energy into a civilized context.

Line 2, whether or hex 11 or hex 4 is all about the Yang focus in the capable yet secondary position to the gentle (Open Yin Space) Ruler in the 5th place highlighting that relationship is what matters most especially for able subordinates who still need guidance.

Frank

 

[pantherpanther]

Hi Hilary,...

The ideogram for the Chinese name of this hexagram is a picture of a pig under a roof a reference to the traditional practice of putting a pig into a pit under the house for "training" by being kept there and fed upon garbage and sewage until it grew up to be food. I belong in the house.

Gia-fu named this hexagram "Ignorance"; for my Flux Tome names I prefer Pupil (or Pupal) referring to either a student being educated or a caterpillar being transformed in the chrysalis from its pupal stage to the butterfly.

In any event, hexagram 4 is all about the need for education or relationship with older and wiser hands to put youth's raw energy into a civilized context....


Frank

That ideogram is "me," that part that is happy to live under the house and be fed garbage and sewage to become food . I belong in the house.

"We must remember there is never enough MENACE in ourselves – never enough hard confrontation. If there is a true confrontation there is an agony – a horror – in that moment of balance. This way or that? Whichever way we go is an escape. We have to pay. If we give up then we are lost. … We meet someone – read a book – it arouses our interest – we feel that person has something. Even at a very early age that possibility of interest is there. This arousing of interest happens in our ordinary lives. We become aware that there is a hunger in us and because of that we follow that interest – we put our energy into that and no longer just as always before on everyday things. In doing that we put our energy onto a new and different level in ourselves.

We meet someone .... who has something different – that meeting raises your interest to this other level – it calls you to give your interest and energy in that direction. That person remains special for you – will always remain so – has become permanent. They have altered the direction of your life. Then later you will meet something else which will do the same and again raise you to another level. Gradually something becomes your own – what you have received is available to you. And you are in danger. There is a menace for you – a trap. You do not go on – you stay there. It has become too easy and you fall down and allow life to take you away. You do not stay there with that danger, that menace. You do not find your place. If you lose that position of danger it is hard to come back again....

It is easy to make grand efforts – big efforts – to work extra hard on this or that, with terrific energy. This also can be an escape – can be a danger too. But if your work is related differently – if it is not just in one part – your mind or your feelings or your body – if everything in you is related and related to that danger – that menace – so that a true confrontation can take place – a confrontation that brings you up with a jerk – then that is different."

-Jeanne de Salzmann

 

[fkegan]

Hi All,

Remarkable personal intensity over a hexagram about the need to channel lively spring water or kindergarten students to set them upon the right path without shutting down their adorable spirits.

Of course, in a Confucian context there has to be a proper regard for discipline and order which makes this hexagram judgment an excellent place to remind diviners that acting like a kindergartner has its limits and its necessary rebuke.

Gia-fu and I rendered the judgment of the whole hexagram this way in the Taoist Translation:

"IGNORANCE. BLISS. NOT THAT I SEEK THE IGNORANT KID. THE IGNORANT KIDS SEEKS ME. FIRST DIVINATION ANSWERS HIM BUT THREE REPETITIONS MEANS DISTRACTION. DISTRACTION IS NOT ANSWERED. FRUITFUL TO HAVE ZEST.
Ignorance, danger at the foot of the mountain and standstill. This is the ignorance of Man. Ignorance is bliss because it is timely to be blissful. The search of the ignorant kid is proper therefore the first oracle answers him; asking three times means distraction therefore he receives nothing. Distraction is ignorance. To enlighten ignorance with rectitude makes one a sage."

From a Taoist perspective things are far less judgmental. It is important to not be distracted, but other than that the ignorant kid has as much right to a meaningful answer from the Oracle as anyone else.

Frank

 

[pantherpanther]

Whosoever shall humble himself as this little child is greatest, Matt. 18: 1-4.
Put off the natural man and become as a child, Mosiah 3: 19; 27: 25-26

 

[heylise]

"I want to learn."
"Nuh-huh. You don't need to know. You wouldn't be any good at knowing. ....."

"I want to know - tell me the answers!"
"Nuh-huh. You don't need to know, you need to learn. Don't expect me to tell you the answers; go and do some of those funny scientific experiments."

Hexagram 4 is the only one where the Yi speaks about him/her/itself. There is a line in 27, 'you look at me..', but no other hex where the Yi is so present.

It is the conflict which arises so often between our two Yi-schools here in Clarity. The ones who want an answer and the ones who want to learn. I don't know if Yi is not both, giving an answer when asked for an answer, and giving advice when asked for advice. Although the answer involves so much... the mind of the interpreter with all his/her opinions and limits. The quality of the translation. The fact itself that it is only a translation, which can never be more than a good interpretation. When you look again at the answer after finding out that it did not work, suddenly you see a different answer in the same words. So that part I cannot trust very much.

With the 'advice' something very different happens when you look back. Very often I see more. Never 'wrong' advice, but a lot more I could have made good use of, if only I had seen it then. You learn, and learn more.

Yi does not talk about itself in a beautiful grand hexagram, but in the one many see as the dumbest lowest of all. Often reduced to "a slap on the hand". Such a waste of a very beautiful image. I really love this hexagram. But I must admit that once I understand them really, I love them all. All have that value, 48 but also 47, 11 but also 12.

 

[hilary]

Hi Hilary,

Hexagram 4 in terms of trigrams is about the artesian spring that forms in the valley under a tall mountain showing the power of that mountain to animate or energize the rain water to become a spring or even a fountain. It is that interaction of water and topography that is the initial condition for the Water Cycle of the first decad.

The ideogram for the Chinese name of this hexagram is a picture of a pig under a roof a reference to the traditional practice of putting a pig into a pit under the house for "training" by being kept there and fed upon garbage and sewage until it grew up to be food.

Gia-fu named this hexagram "Ignorance"; for my Flux Tome names I prefer Pupil (or Pupal) referring to either a student being educated or a caterpillar being transformed in the chrysalis from its pupal stage to the butterfly.

In any event, hexagram 4 is all about the need for education or relationship with older and wiser hands to put youth's raw energy into a civilized context.

Line 2, whether or hex 11 or hex 4 is all about the Yang focus in the capable yet secondary position to the gentle (Open Yin Space) Ruler in the 5th place highlighting that relationship is what matters most especially for able subordinates who still need guidance.

Frank

Mm - and isn't it interesting that 4.2 and 11.2 both begin with bao, embracing/enfolding, the picture of a child in the womb?

Enjoying Pupil/Pupal

You have your Chinese characters muddled, though. The 'pig under a roof' character is 'Home', as in the name of hexagram 37; this one, meng, shows the animal covered over with plants, and I think LiSe reports that it's more likely to be a tiger than a pig. (I can't access her site at the moment - ack - due to a weird and erratic internet connection, but that would be the place to go to check.)

 

[maremaria]

Hexagram 4 is the only one where the Yi speaks about him/her/itself. There is a line in 27, 'you look at me..', but no other hex where the Yi is so present.

It is the conflict which arises so often between our two Yi-schools here in Clarity. The ones who want an answer and the ones who want to learn. I don't know if Yi is not both, giving an answer when asked for an answer, and giving advice when asked for advice. Although the answer involves so much... the mind of the interpreter with all his/her opinions and limits. The quality of the translation. The fact itself that it is only a translation, which can never be more than a good interpretation. When you look again at the answer after finding out that it did not work, suddenly you see a different answer in the same words. So that part I cannot trust very much.

With the 'advice' something very different happens when you look back. Very often I see more. Never 'wrong' advice, but a lot more I could have made good use of, if only I had seen it then. You learn, and learn more.

Yi does not talk about itself in a beautiful grand hexagram, but in the one many see as the dumbest lowest of all. Often reduced to "a slap on the hand". Such a waste of a very beautiful image. I really love this hexagram. But I must admit that once I understand them really, I love them all. All have that value, 48 but also 47, 11 but also 12.

Really love this post !!!
And especially the way you distinguish "advise" and "answer". Its the rippling effect of an advise , a piece of wisdom , the waves it creates.

 

[pantherpanther]

Hexagram 4 is the only one where the Yi speaks about him/her/itself. There is a line in 27, 'you look at me..', but no other hex where the Yi is so present.

The Hexagrams generally "teach" in an impersonal.metaphorical language . The teacher
does not speak personally and directly, but "as.if" she/he were an oracle.
Perhaps in the cases when "I" appears, it can be read "in quotation marks." that is,
representing the teacher's own view of a situation? Perhaps this has a "shock" value. A reminder that the teacher is the authority who uses the I Ching as one means (among others) to educate.


4. Mêng / Youthful Folly
4.0 It is not I who seek the young fool;
The young fool seeks me.
At the first oracle I inform him.
If he asks two or three times, it is importunity.
If he importunes, I give him no information.
Perseverance furthers.

27. I / Corners of the Mouth (Providing Nourishment)
27.1 You let your magic tortoise go,
And look at me with the corners of your mouth drooping.
Misfortune.

48. Ching / The Well
48.3 The well is cleaned, but no one drinks from it.
This is my heart's sorrow,
For one might draw from it.
If the king were clear-minded,
Good fortune might be enjoyed in common.

 

[meng]

The "is" vs "as if" applies across the board with things concerning Yijing, and the human experience for that matter. For expample, one could approach a hexagram or trigram "as if", or they can learn directly from the "is" of the hexagram. They learn from the mountain, or be the mountain.

 

[meng]

Or be the spring at the foot of the mountain.

 

[pantherpanther]

The "is" vs "as if" applies across the board with things concerning Yijing, and the human experience for that matter. For expample, one could approach a hexagram or trigram "as if", or they can learn directly from the "is" of the hexagram. They learn from the mountain, or be the mountain.

A symbol or metaphor or idea represents some part of reality. To "be" or experience the metaphor etc is what it's there for . An individual matter to do so. Every teacher transmits what he/she chooses but according to his/her experience , aim and obligation . One means is through metaphor and symbol.

 

[pantherpanther]

One of the meanings of Hexagram 4, Not Knowing, is being ‘covered over’, like a young animal whose mother hides it in the undergrowth. This means you can’t see as far as you’d like to, something which people tend to find frustrating - and yet the image of the young creature in the undergrowth, to say nothing of the sheltering mountain above the stream, implies that this ignorance is somehow protective.

As a child of the Enlightenment (the 18th century Western one, I mean), I find it very hard to wrap my mind round the idea of being kept in the dark for my own good. This (amongst other things) makes me glad of Mark Silver, who’s written a blog post about how to receive guidance. He’s writing about business decisions specifically, and may not know that he’s also writing about Hexagram 4 (see the part about the ‘divine fence’) and providing good food for thought for*anyone who’s ever consulted an oracle. I especially like his suggestion for a change of question - from*’What to do about this?’ to ‘What would a healthy relationship with this look like?’

Hillary,
I read Mark Silver. It seems like mediocre "con" stuff. The idea of relationship is good .
-p

 

[hilary]

That's a shame - doesn't seem that way to me at all (needless to say). About my only objection is his painful habit of verbing nouns .

 

[fkegan]

Hi Hilary,

As a child of the Enlightenment (the 18th century Western one, I mean), I find it very hard to wrap my mind round the idea of being kept in the dark for my own good.

The concept in hex4 arises from the association with the chrysalis that protects the caterpillar as it dissolves its pupal stage and develops into the butterfly. A more general metaphor would probably be the darkroom that protects light-sensitive silver emulsion while it is being processed into a photograph.

Or the most general sense that a classroom as a protective environment where young students are kept safe from the distractions of the sunshine and playground equipment while they attend to their lessons.

The notion of being kept in "the dark" of ignorance as protective is only a problem in semantics. To learn it is vital to be able to focus upon the lesson and the teacher at the front of the classroom. The younger the student, the more of an effort requiring discipline and extraordinary assistance and equipment to achieve that result.

Frank