Blog post: Stirring the lake

[hilary]

Every now and then, I open a book and the words leap out at me as hexagram commentary - and then ramblings like these result…

Here’s Thomas Moore, in Care of the Soul, talking about faith.

‘Imagine,’ he says, ‘a trust in yourself, or another person, or in life itself, that doesn’t need to be proved or demonstrated, that is able to contain uncertainty.’

(I imagine Hexagram 61, Inner Truth, and 孚, fu, truth.)

He encourages a faith that can embrace doubt rather than splitting it off. (Does that suggest a new idea*about the ‘other’ of 61, line 1?) Then -

‘Also, if we don’t acknowledge the shadow side of faith, we tend to romanticize our belief and keep it in fantasy, apart from life. Jung tells about*a dream of one of his patients, a theologian. In it the dreamer approaches a lake he had long avoided. As he draws near, a wind stirs the waters and makes ripples. He wakes up terrified. In discussing the dream Jung reminded him of the pool of Bethseda in the Gospel, which was stirred by an angel and became a healing water. But the patient was reluctant to respond. He didn’t like that stirring and he didn’t see a connection between theology and life. …To respond trustingly to the challenges of life and to the stirring of the soul’s waters is to bring faith to completion.’

Above the lake is the wind - Inner Truth - and the noble one here will engage in long deliberations to delay executions; he’ll take no firm, irreversible decisions.*I suppose this must mean he is never completely certain - he’s always open to be moved, like the lake, and so there is always space for doubt.

Another hexagram-lens to see this through might be 54, the Marrying Maiden: the lake below, and the way it is stirred. The challenge of 54 - one of them, anyway - seems to be to find equilibrium and authenticity in a situation where you cannot ‘bring order’ of your own, or even set your own direction. Change happens to you, you get moved and ‘married’ into a new place, and you must needs grow into it; you don’t have the luxury of adjusting the situation to fit with your pace of growth. The lake is stirred, the vibrations travel through - and then there’s that impossibly lovely, enigmatic and untranslatable Image:

‘Above the lake, there is thunder. The Marrying Maiden.
A noble one through ever-flowing endings
Knows what wears out.’

​

She gets a clear understanding of what cannot last, what is brittle and susceptible to wearing out, by sensing the quality of flow that complete things have.*’…To respond trustingly to the challenges of life and to the stirring of the soul’s waters is to bring faith to completion.’

And Thomas Moore continues,

‘Belief can be fixed and unchanging, but faith is almost always a response to the presence of the angel, like the one who stirs the waters. Or it could be the angel who appears to the Virgin Mary and demands absurd faith in his message that she is pregnant with a divine child. “Fiat mihi,” she says to the angel, “Let it happen to me even though I don’t understand.” This angel, Gabriel, appears more often than you might think, telling us that we are pregnant with a new form of life that we should accept and trust.’

I’ve never been able to look at the Image of 54 without thinking of Mary - maiden become wife, mother of a future king (like the younger sister in 54, line 5), keeping these things and pondering them in her heart.

 

[maremaria]

I think doubt, is an essential 64 catalyst to keep faith/trust alive. This is what , I think, tried to say in 61 thread about line 1. Doubt as not mistrust ( in a negative way) but as questioning ( delaying execution)

Enjoyed reading you post.

 

[pantherpanther]

Chapter 10 TTC
When Heaven gives and takes away can you be content with
the outcome like a quiet girl? When you understand all things can you step back from your own understanding? Give birth to life without wanting to posses them; take care of them without intention of controlling. This is called “Xuan De”—the virtue of oneness.

Lake," the young girl" is Yin in a relaxed and joyous way: the most effective
way to gain Yang and "faith." And be "present to the angel."

 

[elvis]

61 has its infrastructure described by analogy to the generic qualities of hexagram 29 - "with containment comes control".

All of the lake based hexagrams have their skeletal form, their infrastructure, described by analogy to water based hexagrams.

The beginning of 61 is described by analogy to the generic qualities of hexagram 59 and as such introduces the initial 'lifting of a fog'.

The purpose/completion of 61 is described by analogy to the generic qualities of hexagram 18 and so a focus on correcting an 'error' - something well covered in the focus of a judge going to bat for an individual unjustly punished.

The doubt angle, the avoiding of completion, the focus on 'remaining open', of 61 is described by analogy to the generic qualities of hexagram 17 and so a focus on finding a belief/faith to follow (or to fight for), unable to dig it up from within oneself and as such covers a perpetual focus on being an advocate for others.

To stir the lake is useful but better to start such at home - as in using the language capabilities of the I Ching to describe all features of the lake that are possible GIVEN the structure of the I Ching - IOW map out the CLASSES of 'lakeness' in detail - this allows for transcending the limits of the more, limited, traditional material in that it gives us access to an additional 63 hexagrams worth of information per hexagram (and that useable ad-infinitum as one 'zooms in' for more details - the benefits of a language.

The core focus is on the PURPOSE of the hexagram - and here, in 61, it is described by analogy to 18 and the traditional texts support such a process even if not aware of the 'hard coded' element present that brings out the IC as a language.

(in 54 the purpose/completion is described by analogy to the generic qualities of
28 with its focus on excess, going beyond the norm, going the extra distance - so necessary when the immature are required to grow up quickly, unexpectedly)

 

[44bob123]

Hi Elvis aka Chris Lofting,

If you want people to understand what you're saying, you really need to translated it into everyday English. I think I'm reasonably well educated and articulate but I just give up.

Bob:bows:

 

[elvis]

Hi Elvis aka Chris Lofting,

If you want people to understand what you're saying, you really need to translated it into everyday English. I think I'm reasonably well educated and articulate but I just give up.

Bob:bows:

perseverence furthers...

you obviously dont understand the I Ching is a language and as such is able to describe itself by reference to itself. Thus I summarised some of this in bringing our particular aspects of the hexagram under consideration using the language nature of the IC.

If it all seems 'strange' to you then work through the free introduction to the EIC book - http://www.emotionaliching.com/ShortEmotionalIChing.pdf (load it then save it to your disk for future reflection - as I said, perseverence furthers...

 

[russell]

61 has its infrastructure described by analogy to the generic qualities of hexagram 29 - "with containment comes control".

= changing the first and last lines of 61, in the pattern of 27 or 28, to produce 29.

The beginning of 61 is described by analogy to the generic qualities of hexagram 59 and as such introduces the initial 'lifting of a fog'.

= changing the first line to produce 59.

The purpose/completion of 61 is described by analogy to the generic qualities of hexagram 18 . . . .

The doubt angle, the avoiding of completion, the focus on 'remaining open', of 61 is described by analogy to the generic qualities of hexagram 17

= changing alternate lines, in the pattern of 64 or 63, to produce 18 or 17

an additional 63 hexagrams worth of information per hexagram

This is a mental exercise in comparing every hexagram to every other. The EIC boils down to choosing a hexagram based on answering questions about one’s mental state, then seeing the meaning of the resulting hexagram reflected in all the rest. (That’s how I see it and I have no intention of arguing the point.) Unfortunately, it is accompanied by so much obfuscation about language, and classes, and the XOR function, and neuronal processes, and brain symmetries, as to be all but unintelligible. The inability to clearly explain or communicate it does no credit to its source.

I think of it as an introspective plum blossom method; rather than look for significance in external events, one looks at internal mental states. Unfortunately, my internal mental states are typically full of conflicts, desires, and fears, and I would rather obtain a hexagram from without, an external reference to use as a point of departure, and ponder its meaning as it relates to my situation. I think I speak for many people who consult the I Ching when I say that we are turning to bronze age wisdom when contemporary wisdom fails us. But of course, those who think that the EIC is better, and want to use it, or the plum blossom method, or swinging a pendulum over symbols of the trigrams, or any other, are welcome to.

 

[elvis]

This is a mental exercise in comparing every hexagram to every other.

No. It is a focus on PART/WHOLE dynamics as the brain processes information. The XOR usage covers how the brain differentiates parts of a whole and so can extract a spectrum from a whole, a parts list. There is no 'metal exercise' done in that all that is done is the use of the XOR operator applied to I Ching representations of meaning. In other words we find these relationships are hard-coded into the nature of meaning derivation. As such we find that the I Ching is in fact a language and so able to interpret ANYTHING - something the interpreters of the I Ching in its traditional form had no idea about.

Using the IDM/EIC material we can identify the details of hexagrams precisely if but at the class level. There is no subjectivity involved - the objectivity is in the use of logic operators (in this case, XOR), there is no mental stress in manufacturing such material, no years of subjective analysis etc etc etc - this is all hard-coded as properties of the method our brains use in deriving meaning - something the ancients knew nothing about.

What you don't appear to comprehend is that we are seeing the I Ching classes of meanings derived directly from our neurology and as such identifying the hard-coded nature of meaning at the generic level of class formations. (as covered in http://www.emotionaliching.com/AbstractD.html )

ALL other usages of the I Ching focus on magical/random methods derived from a period of basic ignorance about how meaning is derived. Here we focus on deriving meaning using the brain's methods in holistic assessments of situations using emotion as well as using the language element to describe in detail all of the properties of each hexagram - something not covered in any of the magical/random focused texts.

The EIC boils down to choosing a hexagram based on answering questions about one’s mental state, then seeing the meaning of the resulting hexagram reflected in all the rest. (That’s how I see it and I have no intention of arguing the point.) Unfortunately, it is accompanied by so much obfuscation about language, and classes, and the XOR function, and neuronal processes, and brain symmetries, as to be all but unintelligible. The inability to clearly explain or communicate it does no credit to its source.

LOL! such vanity! All I see is someone who thinks they have skills and so any inability to understand cannot possibly be due to their lack of ability! LOL! You need to read more dude. You sound like someone who has no idea about calculus insisting that someone bring it down to your level! Impossible.

Basic human thought dynamics covers development from symmetric thinking through anti-symmetric and on to asymmetric. The asymmetric is not comprehensible from the symmetry position and you demonstrate such with your prose. So - rather than dumb down to your level, perhaps it is time for you to smarten-up? ;-) Enlightenment covers moving upwards, not downwards.

I think of it as an introspective plum blossom method; rather than look for significance in external events, one looks at internal mental states.

No. The focus is on the UNCONSCIOUS and the use of our primary emotions to assess a situation - they are very good at such but get suppressed by 'mental states'. The EIC method can bypass those issues and give a good assessment of a situation that can reveal hidden motives etc out of conscious awareness. We are NEVER free of the influence of context pushing our buttons. What the EIC does is give you access to what is pushing and your personal consciousness then fills in the details.

Unfortunately, my internal mental states are typically full of conflicts, desires, and fears, and I would rather obtain a hexagram from without, an external reference to use as a point of departure, and ponder its meaning as it relates to my situation.

The assessment of ANY event from an objective position is an assessment of all POSSIBLE expressions - your obvious belief in the magical shows a lack of understanding of the dynamics of the brain in dealing with the environment. ALL 64 hexagrams, AS CLASSES OF MEANINGS, operate with a whole where that whole is the filtering system we choose to use to interpret reality.

As such the WHOLE of the I Ching applies to each moment - BUT at this level the probabilities of each hexagram ARE IDENTICAL (1 IN 64) in that they lack the grounding of the emotional content of the environment where such will push your buttons - your internal states are not independent of your external states - your unconscious is driven by instincts/habits that are PUSHED by the context. Thus the use of magical/random methods gives you a hexagram that represents an aspect of the whole which is then treated AS IF the whole - this is an illusion and covers the dynamics of metonymy (part confused as if whole).

Thus to get an 'external' perspective seemingly 'free' of your desires etc is rubbish since all of the perspectives apply and there is no sorting of such into best-fit/worst-fit order. Due to the use of magical/random methods the resulting hexagram is 'somewhere' in this dimension of best to worst but there is no idea WHERE.

On the other hand the EIC approach is more consistent in getting the 'best fit' hexagram (or close to) and this is testable and so falsifiable. Furthermore we can identify the 'big picture' by generating the full best-fit to worst-fit ordering of hexagrams as we can the small details using XORing.

I think I speak for many people who consult the I Ching when I say that we are turning to bronze age wisdom when contemporary wisdom fails us.

What fails you is the method you use! The EIC is far superior to 'bronze age wisdom' and you would learn a lot about the I Ching if you bothered to understand the material - and so put in the effort. Prior to the EIC I can see how 'contemporary wisdom' may have failed you but with the IDM model other forms of meaning derivation are opened-up and all of those focused on 'contemporary wisdom' are up for review.

But of course, those who think that the EIC is better, and want to use it, or the plum blossom method, or swinging a pendulum over symbols of the trigrams, or any other, are welcome to.

Wonderful example of symmetric thinking, of post modernist perspectives where you think 'any metaphor will do'.

What the EIC brings out is a depth of understanding never available before in the context of getting the I Ching to describe itself by reference to itself.

Now of you lack the immediate skills in understanding then it is up to you to lift yourself, not for me to dumb things down since in doing such we move from asymmetry to symmetry and in doing so lose precision in perspective regarding local situations.

As one cannot convert the basics of the Calculus to simple arithmetic so one cannot convert the language nature of the I Ching to the basics of traditional I Ching. IOW there is some learning involved (as covered in the IDM material) and through that you can transcend your current perspective - if you dare (too risky perhaps? don't what to see your inner 'truth'? too overwhelming perhaps?)

 

[jesed]

There is only one EIC, and Chris is it's prophet

 

[russell]

Calculus: figuring out what the sum of an infinite number of infinitely small quantities would be, such as the areas of very thin slices of the shape under a curve, when the width of the slices approaches zero. Not so hard to grasp the basic concept, is it? It really is an extension of simple arithmetic; or as Archimedes did it, simple geometry.

Even when something is complicated, there is a simple way to explain it, if it makes sense in the first place.

 

[elvis]

Too general. Too 'waving of hands' - this is a dedicated I Ching list and as such covers in-depth work on the IC - the 'waving of hands' section is the magical/random methods section called "Shared Readings".

Try complexity/chaos dynamics in your brain allowing for positive/negative feedback that elicits 'emergent' forms - see anything on autopoiesis. - or just read the IDM abstract that covers the emergence of basic classes of meanings in our brains and all of our abstractions stem from such.

The IDM template is the ground for all meaning, and that includes the I Ching. We then find that there are THREE forms of interpretation - symmetric (wholes), anti-symmetric (parts) and asymmetric (languages, mediations across wholes/parts)

When we apply the latter to the I Ching we see emerge a language where we can get the I Ching to describe itself by reference to itself.

For example, flipping the top and bottom lines of ANY hexagram will give us another hexagram that describes, through analogy, the generic skeletal form or infrastructure of that hexagram. E.g. apply the process to hex 01 turns it into hex 28. What we are seeing here is the EXPRESSION of the qualities of hexagram 27 expressed through a context described by hexagram 01. (hexagram 27 covers the general meaning of the fleshing out of a skeletal form, an infrastructure, and the quality control needed in doing so. XOR it with ANY hexagram will give you a description of that meaning but distorted through the particular hexagram under review.)

The EIC work covers the I Ching as a language and the ability to use vague emotional assessments of any situation to derive a hexagram from which we can then extract fine details of that situation. This is all covered in the book (IDM is an appendix) and the first 50 pages are free - http://www.emotionaliching.com/ShortEmotionalIChing.pdf

Time to move into the 21st century AD dude. The bronze age wisdom is simplistic and lacks the details we can get now, together with consistent, testable, predictions on development etc - far more consistent than using the traditional methods. There is no issue in including the original material in analysis if you need, but the advancement in understanding the IC through the EIC is huge and can aid in resolving any traditional 'confusions' ;-)

 

[elvis]

There is only one EIC, and Chris is it's prophet

LOL! not right - I dont do any 'prophetising', the EIC does all of that through understanding of our parallel nature, our intuitive abilities in making vague assessments of situations - I am just the messenger.

 

[russell]

I think that what I am saying continues to be obvious. As well as the fact that you have crossed the line from explaining your ideas, to forcing them on everyone.

My apologies to Hilary for redirecting her original post. Will sign off on this one. Good night/morning, all.

 

[elvis]

Unfortunately, my internal mental states are typically full of conflicts, desires, and fears, and I would rather obtain a hexagram from without, an external reference to use as a point of departure, and ponder its meaning as it relates to my situation.

"...in animals and humans, emotion is an instantaneous appraisal and evaluation of the state of the external environment at the same time as the internal physiological and psychological condition of the organism. Thus emotion contains, simultaneously, data about the exteroceptions, body functions (both visceral and skeletal), memories, anticipations of the future, and the state of the self with others. Note here that, in humans at least, the sense of self is central to any developed emotion.
A feeling is essentially an overall evaluation of the internal and external worlds together in the one experience. Looking two ways at once, it is a 'Janus-faced' integration. Although rough and ready, often incomplete and mistaken compared to step-by-step analytic thinking, it can have a quickness and efficiency which logical thought lacks. It is a somatopsychic event. a gestalt, a holistic experience of multiplicity. Consider elements singly, apart from the others, and the feeling magically disappears; let them come together again and the emotion returns.
If affect is an undivided whole event of quick appraisal, then the view of that emotion is simply disruptive of reason must be discarded. Rather, it appears that feeling can be both the preliminary and an end stage of a thinking process.
...
In summary, an emotion or feeling is, by its nature, an undivided whole; it functions to appraise overall the internal and external situation together. Details thinking, on the other hand, in its problem-solving aspects, is analytic. it is concerned with discriminating the significant constituents of a whole circumstance and their relationships in the situation. Analytic thought of any sort starts with awareness of a whole question but is not holistic in its own nature.
Seen in this light, feeling and thinking are not best set against each other. They are stages or aspects of any adaptive, maladaptive, or creative process." pp17-18 Rayner, E., (1995) "Unconscious Logic : An introduction to Matte Blanco's bi-logic and its uses" Brunner-Routledge.

The EIC material captures this dynamic of feeling and thinking, of the holistic and the partial, the organic and the mechanistic.

The questions of the EIC capture the emotional assessment of a situation, the questions being vague serving as coat-hangers for emotion-determined responses to be attached.

Given a hexagram derived from the answers to the questions, we have a representation of the situation in I Ching format that is then open to the analytical aspects in the form of using the language nature of the I Ching to extract details of that situation in the form of analogies to other hexagrams; this is where XORing comes in as does the focus on ASYMMETRIC forms of interpretations where we see emerge part/whole dynamics and so extraction of a spectrum or parts list of a situation.

This method is consistent, testable, falsifiable and as such offers a level of precision in understanding the development of situations not found using the more traditional methods of using the I Ching.

 

[jesed]

I am just the messenger.

No further questions, I rest my case