Clarity,
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No Martinus, wrong The whole point of the line is that it is unfortunate not to speak out, not to express oneself. It saysMy urge to write and send that latter is very strong - but the advice given seems
to tell me: "Better don't" - you'll be the one who would finally get hurt. Right?
...and Yi says not sending a letter, not crying out is a pitfall so follow your urge. Focus on being clear and truthful.My urge to write and send that latter is very strong
No Martinus, wrong The whole point of the line is that it is unfortunate not to speak out, not to express oneself. It says
'Not crying out.
In the end, pitfall.'
That is not saying 'better don't' it's saying if you don't call out/express yourself then there's pitfall.
You want your words to be a clear and true statement of your perception of the situation. You do not want with this line to be stuffing all your feelings back inside.
In 43 one has something to say. One does not 'resort to arms' or violence but one does speak out. Sometimes I think 43 is called 'Separating' and I think that is because once one speaks out from one's truth one has made a clear declaration of who one is and when one has done that some, especially those who have continued to be abusive as they think we will never speak out, will fall away.
Do speak out! That is what this line says.
...and Yi says not sending a letter, not crying out is a pitfall so follow your urge. Focus on being clear and truthful.
I wondered: Should I send X a mail, explaining him my view on an "objective"
level - i.e. avoiding "subjective" aggressive emotions.
I asked the I Ching. I got 43/6 leading to 1.
No call; in the end there is misfortune.
At the end of parting, the aggregate of mundanity has receded, leaving only the single mundanity of the discriminatory consciousness as yet undissolved. At that time it should be parted with, and its force then must pass away. When the celestial energy makes one more advance, the mundane energy will then dissolve; therefore there is "no call; in the end there is misfortune." "No call" of mundane energy is none other than the "call of truth" of celestial energy. The "final misfortune" of mundane energy is the ultimate fortune of celestial energy. This is parting in which the celestial energy becomes pure and complete, while mundane energy vanishes entirely.
There are many ways for Yi to say 'let it go' and this really isn't one of them.We can see that the small/false is represented by brother Y, and more importantly your own annoyance of his actions. The answer as I see it is for you to be the bigger person and not cater to small matters.
So you think that he should just go on suffering because he is a meant to be 'the bigger person'? How far can you take that? That someone should go on suffering that kind of abuse endlessly so that they will be the bigger person? It really is the very opposite of what the reading is saying anyway and it looks like you have to go to great lengths of abstraction to get there.We can see that the small/false is represented by brother Y, and more importantly your own annoyance of his actions. The answer as I see it is for you to be the bigger person and not cater to small matters.
Going forward in calling out simply expresses your own small response to brother Y's small way of being. It is bound to only stir up more contention. Not calling out leads to the misfortune of not being able to have your frustrations heard, but instead it leads to the consolidation of your place within your family, putting out what does not serve while embracing and unifying with that which you do care for.
I hear this is how you see it, but if I was going through great lengths of abstraction to get here, then the 3 other commentaries would surely have the straight forward answer, and yet they do not.It really is the very opposite of what the reading is saying anyway and it looks like you have to go to great lengths of abstraction to get there.
Line 6 is the only feminine line remaining after the masculine has approached to position 5. It is useless to call for help (from line 3), or cry for forgiveness (from line 4), or shout with menace (to line 5). It will end with misfortune as the feminine is destined to be subdued, and the villain who obstinately adheres to evil is doomed to be defeated.
The upper trigram Dui is the mouth, which here refers to a cry; line 6 will change to the masculine after the feminine is bsubdued and the mouth will disappear.
The word 'vent' that you use here carries a negative connotation of this being merely an outpouring of fractiousness where it is clearly much more more than that. To call the proposed communication 'venting' trivialises the purpose of writing. This is something that has gone on for a very long time and is a serious matter. Moreover Martinus speaks out not only on his own behalf but that of his wife and children.Given that some time has passed and OP has presumably proceeded to vent, perhaps we will soon learn whether:
- Crying out to the brother met with clearing the air and a vanquishing of the evil.
- Crying out to the brother met with futility and ultimately he needed to let go of the issue and move forward.
Also Martinus is writing to the brother he gets on with about the other brother, he's not directly writing to the brother who shows dislike for his wife and indifference to his children.I.e. about his behaviour towards me and my family. He has a strong dislike
of my wife, he ignores our children (totally), never says a word to anyone,
clearly demonstrates his disinterest- etc.
I find that quite a trivialisation of the seriousness and the suffering this family situation causes. How do you know this is something to 'let go of'? It hardly sounds like it and if one's brother openly expresses dislike for one's wife what exactly would 'move forward' be in your eyes?
- Crying out to the brother met with futility and ultimately he needed to let go of the issue and move forward.
.......is startling. So let's translate this into readable English somehow. Hmmm '...the aggregate of mundanity has receded, leaving only the single mundanity of the discriminatory consciousness as yet undissolved'. Dear me.. so by 'mundanity' I think he refers to yin. I wouldn't say yin was mundane, it's a poor word choice IMO. Actually this is so convoluted it bears no resemblance to what the line actually says at all and it certainly isn't a basis for making thisAt the end of parting, the aggregate of mundanity has receded, leaving only the single mundanity of the discriminatory consciousness as yet undissolved. At that time it should be parted with, and its force then must pass away. When the celestial energy makes one more advance, the mundane energy will then dissolve; therefore there is "no call; in the end there is misfortune." "No call" of mundane energy is none other than the "call of truth" of celestial energy. The "final misfortune" of mundane energy is the ultimate fortune of celestial energy. This is parting in which the celestial energy becomes pure and complete, while mundane energy vanishes entirely.
43<>1I wondered: Should I send X a mail, explaining him my view on an "objective"
level - i.e. avoiding "subjective" aggressive emotions.
I asked the I Ching. I got 43/6 leading to 1.
What serious suffering? The OP would perhaps like the brother to care, but the brother does not. We cannot force others to like and care about our lives and our families. Other than that OP doesn't suggest anything that is causing suffering.I find that quite a trivialisation of the seriousness and the suffering this family situation causes. How do you know this is something to 'let go of'? It hardly sounds like it and if one's brother openly expresses dislike for one's wife what exactly would 'move forward' be in your eyes?
On reading the first post from Martinus, and knowing something, a little bit of him from his other threads here, I do see suffering. Surely one would be speaking from some lofty realm of abstraction if one cannot see why this brother's behaviour, long term, would cause Martinus suffering. However what you have said here does support my view that you made the answer fit your opinion that he should just 'move on'.What serious suffering? The OP would perhaps like the brother to care, but the brother does not. We cannot force others to like and care about our lives and our families. Other than that OP doesn't suggest anything that is causing suffering.
It is also advised to get clear of the narcissist if they are affecting your life adversely. And let's be clear the reading did not, by any stretch of the imagination, say 'move on'. Indeed 'move on' seems a dismissive response with no connection to the reading at all.The brother's behavior is described as a perfect example of narcissism. Generally in dealing with narcissism the person isn't going to change, and it is advised to not get sucked into investing in the issue.
Actually Tuck Chang hasn't given an interpretation on this person's situation you just quoted a chunk of his commentary which is not the same thing.@Trojina you conveniently ignore Tuck Chang's interpretation, and suggest that all four of these commentaries are not worth your time, but that you know better than them. Good for you. I'm happy that you have a different opinion, and I've done what I can to back mine up. My interest is in offering my perspective to help OP, not to help you understand what you are not interested in.
Hmm well there's that thing Mary was discussing in the Exploring Divination thread about misogyny in commentary with all this stuff about the feminine having to be subdued. I mean yes he is talking about yin lines not actual women but it's a very outdated angle IMO The above doesn't make very much sense as a response to this query and of course there's no disrespect to the author intended by me saying that since it's taken from a wider context and was not written to apply to this specific reading at all.Line 6 is the only feminine line remaining after the masculine has approached to position 5. It is useless to call for help (from line 3), or cry for forgiveness (from line 4), or shout with menace (to line 5). It will end with misfortune as the feminine is destined to be subdued, and the villain who obstinately adheres to evil is doomed to be defeated.
The upper trigram Dui is the mouth, which here refers to a cry; line 6 will change to the masculine after the feminine is bsubdued and the mouth will disappear.
Indeed.It is also advised to get clear of the narcissist if they are affecting your life adversely.
If the crying out is due to a smallness (Harrington/Cheng Yi), or mundanity of the discriminatory consciousness (Cleary/Yiming) on the part of the OP, then indeed parting with it and moving on is what these commentaries and my own experience of the hexagram is called for.And let's be clear the reading did not, by any stretch of the imagination, say 'move on'. Indeed 'move on' seems a dismissive response with no connection to the reading at all.
I mean you are fully entitled to give your view of the reading of course, I don't aim to hinder that, but I do think you have entirely skipped the answer in favour of your own viewpoint even to the point of denying the suffering of the querent.
Tuck describes quite literally the futility of crying out at this point, which is literally what the question is about.Actually Tuck Chang hasn't given an interpretation on this person's situation you just quoted a chunk of his commentary which is not the same thing.
Indeed, and if you read my reply in that thread, it can be seen that I explain this in detail. And this reply further explores the concept.Hmm well there's that thing Mary was discussing in the Exploring Divination thread about misogyny in commentary with all this stuff about the feminine having to be subdued. I mean yes he is talking about yin lines not actual women but it's a very outdated angle IMO The above doesn't make very much sense as a response to this query and of course there's no disrespect to the author intended by me saying that since it's taken from a wider context and was not written to apply to this specific reading at all.
We can see that the small/false is represented by brother Y,
The qualities of the hexagram are strength and harmony: Harmoniously acting with strength, strong but not violent...
Should I send the email?"No call; in the end there is misfortune." So in the path of parting from mundanity, it will not do to be too adamant or too yielding; one must have flexibility within firmness, and firmness within flexibility, parting gradually, advancing a portion of celestial energy, repelling a portion of mundanity, so that celestial energy advances to wholeness and mundanity spontaneously sublimates.
Should I send the email?(The subject is trapped in a state of) nil howling (i.e. howling that won't last long, in the end misfortune.
Commentary on the image - The misfortune of nil howling, (signifying) it won't last long
Enlightenment through six six: It is useless to cry; evil powers are destined to be toppled. and it is ominous for one who remains evil.
This is part of a full sentence, which you took one part from and therefore changed the meaning.I see nothing of the sort. What is small/false is something else.
We can see that the small/false is represented by brother Y, and more importantly your own annoyance of his actions. The answer as I see it is for you to be the bigger person and not cater to small matters.
So let's take this last rather complicated sentence apart to see what it says really. I think it says that yin when 'active' ie in a change line, leads to a discriminatory consciousness -which would be a consciousness that is able to discriminate which is scarcely a bad thing especially in 43 which asks us to do precisely that, to stand up, to discriminate, to be clear what we stand for. There is no good reason whatsoever to maintain that yin is, when active, using mundane 'discriminatory consciousness'.Indeed, and if you read my reply in that thread, it can be seen that I explain this in detail. And this reply further explores the concept.
The patriarchal culture and its treatment of women as yin can be seen within the words of the Yi (and various commentaries), and too can be seen a perspective of active yin that leads to conditioning. These are distinct matters and seeing them as such allows for the misogynistic lens to be removed.
And indeed in this case the active yin at the top is precisely what leads to the arising of the mundanity of the discriminatory consciousness that has no home and must be parted from.
And yet you go full on with an interpretation where you maintain a yin change line shows petty discriminatory consciousness. And so in your case rather than the 'misogynistic lens' being removed you have actually made full use of it to garner an interpretation to the very opposite effect of the words of the line.The patriarchal culture and its treatment of women as yin can be seen within the words of the Yi (and various commentaries), and too can be seen a perspective of active yin that leads to conditioning. These are distinct matters and seeing them as such allows for the misogynistic lens to be removed.
This one sentence you have here represents two very separate components of a line statement.He who does not cry out will suffer.
Your critical thinking isn't really picking it apart in much detail.So let's take this last rather complicated sentence apart to see what it says really. I think it says that yin when 'active' ie in a change line, leads to a discriminatory consciousness -which would be a consciousness that is able to discriminate which is scarcely a bad thing especially in 43 which asks us to do precisely that, to stand up, to discriminate. There is no good reason whatsoever to maintain that yin is when active using mundane 'discriminatory consciousness'.
Now what exactly one might ask would 'mundane discriminatory consciousness' be if we were talking in plain English ? I would say mundane powers of discrimination, that is to discern the difference between apples and bananas in the supermarket is a pretty necessary function and not at all especially a yin thing nor a 'bad' yin thing.
The whole of hexagram 43 is about using the strength of yang to eliminate the final element of yin at the top. This is where we disagree.The whole of 43 is about speaking out and the danger in the last line is when one fails to do that.
It would appear to be designed to advise our use of active energy (9) so that it is constructive and restrain it when it is not, and to be cautious about engaging with things that we become invited into (6) unless there can be constructive outcomes. I don't see what is patriarchal about this.And what you have done here is on the one hand talk about commentaries being patriarchal and then simply gone ahead and used the patriarchal commentary as a basis for your interpretation.
> The patriarchal culture and its treatment of women as yin can be seen within the words of the Yi (and various commentaries), and too can be seen a perspective of active yin that leads to conditioning. These are distinct matters and seeing them as such allows for the misogynistic lens to be removed.
And yet you go full on with an interpretation where you maintain a yin change line shows petty discriminatory consciousness. What does 'treatment of women as yin' mean? Actual women and men do not equate to yin and yang lines, they are principles, polarised powers that make up the universe.
You are the one who raised this issue due to Tuck Chang's commentary using the phrase "after the feminine is subdued" as a descriptive of the active yin line's influence needing to be subdued.And there is no sexism or patriarchy in the 'words of the Yi' as you say there is, that is only in the commentaries such as you have used. It's not as if using the word 'wife' or referring to the 'wife in the home' is itself sexist. I really do not think the actual words of the Yi are sexist at all nor tinged with misogyny because it really is not misogynistic for there to be a difference in roles between the husband and wife especially in ancient times.
Well, a big "thanks" to everybody's comment here. Most interesting, even fascinating.
Actually I immediately followed Trojina's posting, I sent a mail to my "X"-brother - and I'm glad I did so. He answered and proved to be very understanding, suggested we should have a talk about all this.
Thx to everybody - and to the I Ching, one more time an immeasurable source of wisdom...!
I have not raised anything against any of the competing perspectives given.Please post your personal experience,
If you want the ideas you are putting forth to be considered.
I've already explained how I see the result fitting my interpretation. I am more than happy to let the matter stand, as I have been, and yet Trojina and you seem to want to debate about it.
What is silly (IMO) is to resort to personal attacks on the matter. (Or to make replies and then delete them.)
you are sillyAnd still you would argue against it.
That is rather silly, isn't it?
your level of insight is to be questionedThe fact that you refused speaks volumes about your level of insight.
when your ideas are challenged you consider it an attackAND you consider it an attack when an idea in your head is challenged?
Please point to a single personal attack?
I didn't take it to mean any active yin line though it may have sounded like it.Your critical thinking isn't really picking it apart in much detail.
First we have in this case the active yin at the top. That means this sentence refers specifically to hexagram 43 line 6, but you take it to mean any active yin line / changing yin line.
So the idea is yin is 'mundane' and yang is 'celestial'. Oh if only this didn't remind me of mother doing the ironing (mundane) whilst father writes his theory of evolution in his study (celestial). Also perhaps check out what the word 'mundane' means because it really does not mean 'things one does not need to concern oneself with' at all. At least it would only mean that in some contexts. Mundane means of the this earth, everyday things, practical here and now matters. Who, apart from a disembodied being, could possibly say these were things one 'need not concern oneself with'.Then you pick apart "discriminatory consciousness" as being a consciousness that discriminates, which is all fine, but the point is not about the discriminatory consciousness but the mundanity that arises within it unnecessarily.
It is like being in meditation and having thoughts about something completely unnecessary to think about pop into one's head. That is the mundanity (mundane things one does not need to concern oneself with) of the discriminating consciousness (which here is used symbolically to distinguish it from the pure spiritual mind that does not need to shape itself into words).
But that's pure disembodied misogyny right there isn't it. You have described 'the pure spiritual mind as master' and hence imply the embodied, the yin realm, as something lesser to be subdued. I don't think the I Ching says 'the pure spiritual mind' is 'master' I think that's all philosophy piled on to it.To further explain, the discriminatory consciousness in daoist alchemical symbolism is seen as a tool that indeed has many beneficial uses, but is a servant to the pure spiritual mind. The pure spiritual mind should be the ruler and master, and yet due to the conditioning of the discriminatory mind to constantly be weighing on things it has a proclivity to take over and usurp its master. By following the flow of yin and yang changes within the hexagram Liu Yiming offers insight into how to navigate the balance.
True, that makes no sense to me but I guess it does to those who use line theory. However even those who use line theory cannot change the fundamental meaning of a line through that line theory.The whole of hexagram 43 is about using the strength of yang to eliminate the final element of yin at the top. This is where we disagree.
Well yes, 43 has to do with taking the speaking staff (LiSe) making a separation of what is you and isn't, declaring oneself without resorting to arms and by line 6 if one hasn't then it is unfortunate.In both cases of active yang and active yin are many situations designed for restraint, or for going forward. And there are situations where there is advice to do one thing despite the hexagram giving a strong proclivity for the other thing to happen regardless. That is the case in hexagram 43 line 6.
No, I don't think you can say I am derailing the topic since the topic is the meaning of 43.6 which I haven't deviated from significantly. It's possible your foray into astrology could be seen as 'derailing' since it has zero connection to the topic but still it was a minor derailment so that can pass.You are just derailing the topic.
NO.So the idea is yin is 'mundane' and yang is 'celestial'.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).