Can someone tells me more of Yi Lines Forrest of Change?

[ilemacedonia]

Hi people,

I saw this on the site Yijing.nl
There's a some translation which is still in process. I can see that it are commentaries on some of the hexagrams but I can't understand what is the story behind the commentaries.. Who was Yi Lin and in which circumstances he wrote this commentaries? Also, are the commentaries particular for the Transition from one hexagram to another? And, are this commentaries helpful for understanding the Yi Jing answer on our question?
Is here anybody who is really familiar with this?

Thanks

 

[pocossin]

The Yi Lin (The Forest of Changes) is a Chinese book of short verses that describe the changing of any hexagram into another. See

http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/yilin/yilin-intro.htm

 

[ilemacedonia]

The Yi Lin (The Forest of Changes) is a Chinese book of short verses that describe the changing of any hexagram into another. See

http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/yilin/yilin-intro.htm

Yes I know that but I want to know more about the context in which these verses were written.
Thanks anyway

 

[Sparhawk]

Start here:

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=jiaoshi+yilin&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

 

[cesca]

The wiki on Yilin says "It contains 64 x 64 = 4096 hexagrams". Surely this can't be right. There are only 64 possible hexagrams.

 

[ilemacedonia]

The wiki on Yilin says "It contains 64 x 64 = 4096 hexagrams". Surely this can't be right. There are only 64 possible hexagrams.

Hi Cesca.
Yes, but every single hexagram can move to any other of the 63 through the changing lines and make a pair with it. There are only 64 possible single hexagrams, but there's also 4096 possibilities of pairing the hexagrams.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Cesca,

What Ile said. Every hexagram can become any other. The Yilin has verses for every one of those possibilities.

 

[yxeli]

Just for future reference on whoever opens this thread, just found this page: http://ctext.org/jiaoshi-yilin

Yx

 

[bradford]

It's a really desperate attempt to avoid the multiple line problem.

 

[charly]

The wiki on Yilin says "It contains 64 x 64 = 4096 hexagrams". Surely this can't be right. There are only 64 possible hexagrams.

Hi, Cesca:

Consider that hexagrams are not composed of YIN and YANG lines only, but in fact of OLD YIN, YOUNG YIN, OLD YANG and YOUNG YANG.

If we draw the hexagrams without changing lines, we have 64 possibilities, but if we draw it with the marks for the changing lines we have 4096 different possibilities.

Only with Yin / Yang:

2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 64​

With Old Yin / Young Yin / Old Yang / Young Yang:

4 x 4 x 4 x 4 x 4 x 4 = 4096​

Trust me, don´t intent to draw all, although it´s no impossible.


All the best,



Charly

 

[peterg]

Hi people,

......? And, are this commentaries helpful for understanding the Yi Jing answer on our question?
Is here anybody who is really familiar with this?

Thanks

Better late than never.I had this back pain and my shoulders were tilted badly.I was worried because I used to have long term back trouble.So I cast and got 41.2.3.4.- 30
Clear enough.It actually improved significantly next day as per 41.4 : diminishing affliction swiftly rejoicing.
I looked up the Jiaoshi Yi lin ( Chinese text project) for 41-30
and it goes something like this :
Pitfall. (as in H29. was I looking at the right text?).........shoulders.........shielded..fenced in.....quiet peaceful resting without worry.
Shoa would like to know more about what the Yilin was saying about dem shoulders.

pg

 

[peterg]

The Chinese Text project Yilin verses for H41 begin with the unchanging hexagram and this screws up the numbering.Technically 41 unchanging is 41.0 - 41 (repetition intensifies the quality K&R) .It would have been better to place it 41st rather than 1st.

So for 41-30 you have to read the characters rather than the numbers.I mistakenly read the yilin text for 41-29 and it meant something to me. 41-30 is just a meaningless jumble of words to me.

 

[peterg]

Lise thinks the change is from the 'hexagram of the day' to the hex. of your cast.
See http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/yilin/yilin-intro.htm

My cast was 20.9.2012 (1-3pm) and the new moon was 16.9.2012
So the yilin text is 57 - 41
From Chinese text Project 57-41: http://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en&id=89010

巽之:損：宜行賈市，所求必倍。戴喜抱子，與利為友。

A rough transliteration :
Ground H57. Diminish, injure, H41:
proper to advance, trade, buy, at market, town.
Place. beeseech many times
Support enjoy joy Embrace the son.
Comrade go along with.Fast speedy benefit become friends.

I got back pain 17.9.12 I had to be in town next day and I made it with help of painkillers and a friend to drive me around ( classic 41.1)

ps you do get a better experience at CTP if you sign up. All they want is an email adress and password.

 

[cjgait]

There is a (very small) article on the Yi Lin on Wikipedia. There is no complete translation in a western language at this time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiaoshi_Yilin

The Chinese versions vary. There are several with modern Chinese translations, which is good, since the Han Dynasty original can be abstruse.

Also, there are 4,096 verses, but there is a substantial amount of identical texts (10% maybe? Has anyone counted he many?)

 

[pocossin]

The Chinese versions vary. There are several with modern Chinese translations, which is good, since the Han Dynasty original can be abstruse.

Are modern Chinese translations reliable? I speculate that the oddness of Alex's translation of the tai xuan is because he does not know Han Chinese but made a translation of a translation. Do you know the rationale of the Yi Lin poems? That is, are they derived from imagery in the pair of hexagrams?

 

[peterg]

water 0n earth wrote a piece on the Jiaoshi Yilin here (post#10)
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=12398
He said he read about 200 of the texts and was able to figure out the ''infrastructure'' of of the 4096 dodecagrams, and how Jiao ( I Ching Grandmaster and teacher of Jing Fang) came up with it.
Perhaps he can be persuaded to say something more about that when he's posting again.He also mentioned the possibility of creating translation software if there is sufficient interest in that.
Wang Yang (Authentic I Ching p.4.126.183.) thinks highly of the Yilin and uses it in practical divination and quotes a couple of examples.

 

[peterg]

41 - 30 on the question of back pain

This clever cast on the Q. of back pain ( 20.9.12 1-3pm) seemed to be speaking on two levels simultaenously because there was something else going on at the time.

On 26.9.12 I purchased a McAfee product online.During the order process I lost internet connection (41 loss 30 net) so I resumed and by mistake a second order was recorded (cf trigram duplication) and my account was debited twice on the same day with 57 euro dollars.
Surprising for a big company customer care was very good (they seem to have won accolades for this). In two minutes I was chatting by email with some Japanese girl (a good sign.I associate Japan with H.30) and I had my refund of 57 dollars in a few days.
41.4 : Wu Jing Nuan and Karcher translate the character shi as 'send a message' (to diminish your illness send a message quickly.there will be joy.no error.) (ps could also be getting the oracle's message timely could save the day.officer wood will be getting stronger, offspring metal weaker by and by)
That character and the bit about the message caught my attention at the time.

Even the Na Jia was on theme and buzzing with actions but the dominant one was on the moving 4th line which turned into Offspring ( cure joy worrykiller) metal rooster, very strong under metal month and day of cast, which controls the weak wood Officer ( disease robber trouble ) lines who want to (moving 2nd) hurt the Self earth element and suck up the water money.
Any 6 clash hexagram (eg H30) is supposed to be good news when its about a recent illness.
ps the back pain is still simmering in the background.not quite cured.

 

[cjgait]

Are modern Chinese translations reliable? I speculate that the oddness of Alex's translation of the tai xuan is because he does not know Han Chinese but made a translation of a translation. Do you know the rationale of the Yi Lin poems? That is, are they derived from imagery in the pair of hexagrams?

The quality of the translations does vary, and some of the texts are just so obscure that I'm not sure anyone can untangle them. But then again we all know that moment from reading the Yi itself, don't we? I can write a few notes on some of the editions available if anyone is interested. I have all but the latest one, and haven't made up my mind yet on buying that one (for one thing people keep citing such expensive and interesting works here on Clarity that my budget is exhausted at the moment ).

One of the 20th century scholars who did considerable work on it was 尚秉和 (Shang4 Bing1 He2). From my limited reading of his work he found the Yi Lin most useful as a way to find out more about the ancient texts available to the Han dynasty author that are now long lost. This type of textological reconstruction of lost texts from their 'reflection' in other works is a modern method of scholarship that has produced some significant results in other textual studies such as Bible studies. For those using an iPad I can send a link to an application that will allow you to download many Chinese language texts on the Yi, including one of Shang Binghe's works on the Yi Lin.

As to the question of the Yi Lin as a way to eliminate confusion from multiple texts, I'm not sure. From evidence in the Spring and Autumn Annals and Guo Yu there was already a method in place in ancient times for reducing the texts read down to one or two. That is the method I personally use, as recovered by scholars at Nanjing University (thus the Nanjing Method). It is described in Whincup and, I believe, Rutt.

I think the Yi Lin was going for accuracy. I attempted something similar when I was very young, adding a trigram to each hexagram and thus producing 512 nonagrams instead of 64 hexagrams. The results are...not so good.

As I see it, the problem with using a larger body of texts, effectively moving up a scale of magnitude in the texts from the hexagram and line texts to 4096 verses in the Yi Lin is one of precision. The Yi Lin suffers as a predictive instrument precisely because it is so specific. By this I mean that when it is 'on' it is spot on. But most of the time it misses, and misses quite badly. I cannot really express that in more than intuitive terms, but it makes sense to me. The Yi works by giving general signs of direction and stimulating both the conscious and subconscious elements of the human mind. It 'fits' the mind and does not go beyond our limits. The Yi Lin, on the other hand, seeks to be a precision instrument in an imprecise field, and thus falls short, IMO.

 

[peterg]

How Wang Yang uses the Yilin

Wang Yang (Authentic I Ching p.4.126.168.) says he refers to the Yilin when conducting a complex divination and when using his integrated method which is a combination of different methods.He quotes two examples.
When the extended family were sitting in front of the TV awaiting the result of China's bid for the 2008 Olympics, his wife challenged him to predict the result, 'since he was a fortune teller'. So he did.His Mei Hua cast indicated that the winner would be from the East and so must be either China or Osaka. His second cast
28.3 - 47
determined the votes from the trigram numbers ( early heaven) and strength of element under season : 55 for China 6 for Osaka.( the result was 56 China 6 Osaka)
He quotes the Yilin oracle poem for 28 changing to 47 :
'' Getting in my car with joyful steps and driving to the family holding great celebration.
The kind host of the family gave me a very beautiful coat and I carried full happiness in the car on my return home.''

From the Chinese Text Project : 28 > 47

大過之:困：大步上車，南到喜家。送我貂裘，與福載來。

Da Guo > Kun :
da bu shang che ju (at great pace upon the vehicle )
nan dao xi Jia (southwards going joyfully home to family)
Song wo diao qiu ( giving me a mink coat )
Yu fu zai lai ( going along with happiness in the vehicle returning)

 

[peterg]

Wang's second example is about the 2001 tin mine flooding in Nandan county Gangxi province.Locals feared that up to 200 men may have died when miners drilled into a shaft filled with water.Many were thought to be migrant workers with no official papers.
There were accusations of management corruption, exploitation and a cover up.

His Mei hua cast was based on the time of the accident 3.30am 17July 2001 :
5.5 - 11
Visually he saw hexagram 5 water as flooding and heaven as (hairy?) men. In the second hexagram he saw men buried under earth.
He quotes the Yilin oracle poem for 5 > 11 :
''Under the despotic king Chu, the people are exhausted from awful exploitation.A disaster happened from stream of Chien due to an evil action from the brother of the king.People try to flee but they die in pig water room.''

From the Chinese Text Project 5 > 11 :

需之:泰：楚靈暴虐，罷極民力。禍起乾溪，棄疾作毒。扶仗奔逃，身死亥室。

Xu > Tai
Chu ling ling bao pu bo (name of feudal state's souls spirits violent tyranny harsh oppressive)
Ba ji min li ( exhausted in extremity are the people )
Huo qi qian xi qi ( calamity arising from the heavenly stream )
Qi ji zuo du dai ( name of a person works poison venom )
Fu pu zhang ben tao ( help protect run flee escape )
Shen si hai shi (dead bodies in pig water(earthly branch) chamber )

 

[peterg]

16.3.4 - 15

This one I cast mid september.

It's one that Lise translates under miscellaneous.
16-15
螟蟲為賊
害我稼薔
禾殫麥盡
秋無所得
Moth larvae become thieves
Harmful for my crop of roses
Grain exhausted, wheat used up
An autumn without gains
(tr. LiSe)


Chinese Text Project
16 > 15

豫之:謙：螟虫為賊，害我稼穡；禾殫麥盡，秋無所得。

yu (ease) > qian ( humble,modest)

ming chong hui wei zei ze ( larvae insects become thieves )
hai wo jia se ( destroying my grain harvest )
he dan mai jin ( grain used up wheat all gone )
qiu wu suo de ( autumn without a suitable place to obtain )

The hexagram of the day - see post #13 :
The cast was on 11.9.2012 5-7pm
Last quarter August moon gives H 41
So the yilin text is 41 - 16

CTP 41>16

損之:豫：南歷玉山，東入玉關。登上福堂，飲萬歲漿。

nan li yu shan ( southwards past jade mountain )
dong ru yu guan ( eastward enter jade frontier )
deng de shang fu tang ( climbing high - promotion? blessing of goverment office )
yin wan sui jiang ( drinks ten-thousand year old broth )

 

[pocossin]

Thank you, peterg. My question is, Where do the ideas of moth larvae, roses, and exhaustion of grain come from? What is there about hexagrams 16 and 15 that suggest these ideas? The line text is no help.

16.3.4
Six in the third place means:
Enthusiasm that looks upward creates remorse.
Hesitation brings remorse.

Nine in the fourth place means:
The source of enthusiasm.
He achieves great things.
Doubt not.
You gather friends around you
As a hair clasp gathers the hair.

I am constitutionally unable to apply a divinatory text without understanding its rationale.

 

[peterg]

I don't know either. What I'm trying to discover by trial and error is does the Yilin have a place in practical divination. My interest is inspired by Wang Yang's practical application of the Yilin.
pg

 

[pocossin]

I don't know either. What I'm trying to discover by trial and error is does the Yilin have a place in practical divination. My interest is inspired by Wang Yang's practical application of the Yilin.
pg

Thank you, Peterg. If you ever have an insight into the genesis of the yi lin, I'd very much like to know.

 

[cjgait]

The Good and the Bad in the Yilin

Those two readings, 16-15 and 41-16, certainly represent opposite poles of fortune. In 16-15 The snout moth larva, like thieves,
eat up the seedlings and the wheat.
Autumn comes and there is no crop in the field.

The snout moth larva is still a major pest today in China, mainly attacking the rice crop. The Yuan dynasty commentary notes that it spins silk like the silk worm, but eats the heart of crops.

41-16 is as fortunate as 16-15 is unlucky:

Reaching the Southern Jade Mountain,
entering the Eastern Jade Gate.
On the upward path to prosperity,
drinking the ambrosia of longevity.

As to explanations. There are various traditional trigram attributions for words in the text drawn from the hexagrams involved, but I've never given much weight to them. The text of the Yi Lin is often more similar to the oracle attributed to Zhuge Liang than it is to the Yi (See The Magical Lots of ZhuGe Liang: Divination using the I Ching, ISBN 1468070991).

As I said, there is quite a bit of explanatory material in Shang Binghe, but it hasn't been translated. Harmen knows a lot more about Yi Lin and his Chinese is much better than mine, so perhaps he will pop in here to explain more at some point.

 

[peterg]

Wang Yang (Authentic I Ching p.4.126.168.) says he refers to the Yilin when conducting a complex divination and when using his integrated method which is a combination of different methods.He quotes two examples.
When the extended family were sitting in front of the TV awaiting the result of China's bid for the 2008 Olympics, his wife challenged him to predict the result, 'since he was a fortune teller'. So he did.His Mei Hua cast indicated that the winner would be from the East and so must be either China or Osaka. His second cast
28.3 - 47
determined the votes from the trigram numbers ( early heaven) and strength of element under season : 55 for China 6 for Osaka.( the result was 56 China 6 Osaka)
He quotes the Yilin oracle poem for 28 changing to 47 :
'' Getting in my car with joyful steps and driving to the family holding great celebration.
The kind host of the family gave me a very beautiful coat and I carried full happiness in the car on my return home.''

From the Chinese Text Project : 28 > 47

大過之:困：大步上車，南到喜家。送我貂裘，與福載來。

Da Guo > Kun :
da bu shang che ju (at great pace upon the vehicle )
nan dao xi Jia (southwards going joyfully home to family)
Song wo diao qiu ( giving me a mink coat )
Yu fu zai lai ( going along with happiness in the vehicle returning)

Yilin oracle poem 28>47 is repeated in 60>20 and this one is translated by Lise under miscellaneous
60-20
大步上車
南到臺家
送我狐裘
與福載來
big step up carriage (get into)
South to ? home (army family?)
See off me (in) fox fur coat
And blessing carry come. (bless the journey? here I come?)
臺(see 59-4)
(tr.: LiSe) see Shilin ode 37: frayed and worn fox fur-coats

There are two differences in the characters used : the 7th xi joy, and the 11th diao mink.

Chinese Text Project :
60 > 20
節之:觀：大步小車，南到喜家。送我豹裘，與福載來。

da bu xiao che ju - at great pace (in my) little carriage
nan dao xi jia - southwards going joyfully home-to-family
song wo bao qiu - giving me or seeing me off in, leopard fur coat
yu fu zai lai - carried along with happiness coming back (home)

There are a couple of small differences between CTP 28>47 AND 60>20.
The 3rd character is xiao small instead of shang top.
About the fur coat : Lise has fox. CTP 28>47 has diao mink (marten, sable). CTP 60>20 has bao leopard.
Repeated poems are not unusual in the Yilin. (Cgait thinks its about 10%.)The mystery is why.

 

[cjgait]

The carriage races along,
The joyous family reaches the south.
The ruler presents me with a leopard skin coat,
I return home with the prize.

It makes you wonder if this refers to some historic incident, but neither the Yuan text or the others seem to identify why the family is going south and why that is a cause for joy and the awarding of a coat.

 

[peterg]

Jiaoshi Yilin 17 unchanging - no replies

Jiaoshi Yilin text for Heagram 17 unchanging should resonate with anyone who posts and gets no replies. I posted the following at Chinese Text Project recently :

Jiao Shi Yi Lin text of 41 - 29
Posted by: ganta78 29.9.12
Anyone got a translation of this text?
I had back pain and the yijing cast about it was 41-30.
I mistakenly read the yilin text of 41-29 and it meant something to me.
I'm also interested in the yilin text of 41-30.

Jiao Shi Yi Lin text 41 - 29 and 41 - 30
Posted by: ganta78 11.10.12
I should clarify that those are the hexagram numbers I was refering to.
The numbers in CTP Yilin are screwed up because the unchanging hexagram is placed first.Technically Hexagram 41 unchanging is 41.o-41 and should be placed 41st.
The word for word transliteration of Jiaoshi Yilin is extremely useful.What I was hoping for was a complementary intuitive translation from someone familiar with traditional Chinese.
Best regards.


Yilin text 17 unchanging
Posted by: ganta78 11.10.12
I just picked a Yilin text completely at random which was 17 unchanging.This is how I read the transliteration :
A bird calls west to east
greeting his species
No success to begin with
no exchange, still alone.

隨之: 隨：鳥鳴東西，迎其群侶；不得自專，空返獨還。
niao ming dong xi
ying qi qun lu
bu de zi zhuan
kong fan du kuan

 

[cjgait]

41-30

I did do a translation of 41-30 some time ago (with scans of some modern Chinese translations). The numbers on top indicate that the same verse is used for four different Yi Lin judgments

30_23 43_43 6_37 41_30

離之:剝：戴堯扶禹，從喬彭祖，西過王母，道里夷易，無敢難者。

拥护唐尧扶植夏禹，
跟从仙人王乔和彭祖。
往西拜访王母娘娘，
迫里平坦畅通无阻，
没有人敢于挡道。 (Baihua)

拥戴唐尧爱抚复禹，
跟随仙人王桥与彭祖。
住西遇见王母娘娘，
道路平坦。 (Jietu)

拥戴扶持像尧禹一样的圣君，
跟从王路乔彭祖一样的神仙，
去拜访西王母无人敢阻难。
利贞。 (Xinzhu)

Supporting Yao and assisting Yu,
Following the celestial beings Wang Qiao and Peng Zu.
Meeting the Queen Mother of the West,
The way is smooth,
No man dares block the way.

 

[peterg]

From the point of view of back pain and yilin 41>30, Lise's 50>50 provides a clue.
50-50
積德之君
仁政且温
伊呂股肱
國富民安
Accumulating virtuous chiefs
A government benevolent and kind
Yi and Lu are the right-hand men
The state is rich, the people quiet
50-50 notes
伊呂: the ministers 伊尹YiYin (Shang dynasty) and 呂尚 LüShàng (Zhou dynasty). 伊尹, ancient benefactor of Shang dynasty, was accorded the title 阿衡, support of the state.
呂尚 (呂=backbone) was called the heart and backbone of 禹 Yü, and got the title of Marquis of 呂, Lü.
tr. Pedro, LiSe

CTP 50>50 ding (large three legged bronze cauldron)
鼎之:鼎：積德之至，君政且溫，伊呂股肱，國富民安。
ji de zhi zhi - accumulating virtue
jun zheng qie wen - government chiefs
yi lu gu gong - Yi Lu thigh forearm
guo fu min an - country rich people quiet

CTP 41>30
損之:離：戴堯扶禹，松喬彭祖。西過王母，道路夷易，无敢難者。
dai yao fu yu - support emperor sage Yao support Hsia founder Yu (pillars of state)
song qiao peng zu - pine tree tall stately grandfather Peng
xi gou wang mu - western bypass kings mother (grandmother)
dao lu yi yi - road way injury (yi tribe) easy
wu gan nan zhe - do not dare difficult

41>30 6>37 30>23 43>43 have same text.
They have song fir tree, except for 6>37 which has cong follow.
41>30 and 6>37 have lu road.
The other two have li mile.
Support, backbone,tall straight pine tree, and even gou exceed (as in 28 ridgepole buckling and nuclear 30) and grandparents, are interesting in the context of bent over with back pain.
Dont know about the other lines.
The whole suggests back injury and avoid aggressive activity ?

Sources
LiSe http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/yilin/miscella.htm
Chinese Text Project http://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en&id=87959