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Can the same exagram come two times?

kawarider

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I am a scientist, so I don't know how to think about ICHING. I tried to ask a very important question for my life few days ago. The first time the exagram 28. Ta Kuo / Preponderance of the Great came. I was not convinced so I tried again... and the SAME exagram came again!. Is there someone that can help me to understand what happened? Thanks. Beverly.
 

femke

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Dear Kawarider

As a fellow scientist, I would have to say: the chance of this happening by coincidence depends on the method you used. If it was coins, chances are divided as follows:
6 (changing yin line): 1 out of 8
9 (changing yang line): 1 out of 8
7 (unchanging yang line): 3 out of 8
8 (unchanging yin line): 3 out of 8.
Chances for 2 times the same unchanging hexagram are if I'm correct: 3/8 x 3/8 x 3/8 x 3/8 x 3/8 x 3/8 = 729/262144 = 0,00278.
That's a small chance, but of course no proof that the I Ching gives meaningful answers. In order to prove that, you would have to repeat this experiment many times. But the trouble is, if the I Ching gives meaningful answers, the entity might not be altogether happy with the scientific research on it. And therefore not comply. So you wouldn't prove anything.
That's the problem with holistic thinking, it's not testable by our straightforward science. I once asked I Ching if I could experimentally test it to prove it works. I thought it was a brilliant way to help the acceptance of the I Ching by the western world along. I Ching answered hex. 4, youthfull folliness, undivided. In the Judgement it states: With the first oracle, I answer. Asking two or three times is harassment. Whoever harasses me, I won't answer.
Which was a bit of a downer on my helpful intentions.
So I guess from an I Ching adept point of few I Ching might be giving you a bit of credit for not believing in it yet, by patiently giving the same hexagram twice.

By the way: you might want to post your question to get some input on it, since it's very important to you.

Good luck!
Femke
 
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bruce

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When you get the same hexagram 3-4 times in a row, in various configurations, it also gets a little spooky. But [gambling] slot machines also get hot, and then cool down. So perhaps it isn?t so much a mathematical problem as it is one of how energy flows.

I personally doubt there is an ?entity?, other than the One from which it all flows from, and to.
 

frank

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Hi Kawarider,

Nice to have a 'scientist' on this board. How does a man or woman who wants plain clear proof come into contact with something you can't proof :-D...? The Yi works. Perhaps hexagram 28 is only telling you to proof just that. And you, as a scientist, used to look at things in a very detailed way, getting deeper in to the matter, gets headaches... (28...). 28 CAN mean that the Yi teases you to lower the 'rifgepole'; thats 'your thoughts and believesystem'...

Perhaps I can help you in giving you some entrances of people who actually, as scientists..., have studied the Yi (as there where a japanees and chinese scientists winning the Nobel prize for science... in 1949... and when they had been asked for there inspiration, they mentioned the I Ching...They won it for ther papers on Quantum mechanics..).:

1. Peter Butterworth - 'A functional analysis of synchronicity and the Yijing, part one; the conservation and convergence of meaning' in The Oracle, journal of Yijing Studies, Vol. 2, No. 10, pages 14/34

2. Peter Butterworth - 'A functional analysis of synchronicity and the Yijing, part two: a quantitative study of the Yijing', The Oracle, journal of Yijing Studies, Vol. 2, No. 10, pages 3/24

Both: ISSN 1463-6220

I do not know if the site of this magazine is still in the Internet-air, as the journal is already out of print...

3. Johnson F. Yan - 'DNA and the I Ching'; 1991 North Atlantic Books, ISBN 1-55643-097-3

and there should be some 'science and the Yi' on the Internet...

I hope I made some scientific sense what so ever...

And yes, Femke was right... Give us the question and we will see if we can give you some proof...

You know... the dificulty in explaining The Yi in a scientific way is laying in the fact that the Yi works with believe and the heart... To be a good person, to find the right man or woman of your heart, to find the right job... HOW to handle these things is not learned by science...
You can manage some 'tricks' so a certain lady or man could be interested in you... You could think long enough how to calculate Einsteins' New Field Theory, but as Rupert Sheldrake has said in his book "Seven Experiments that could change the world": 'the way a scientist finds proof is coloured by the way he aproaches the experiment...' As long as scientists believe LOVE is a chemical thing, and hell, it is... but I BELIEVE differently... the Yi will NEVER be understood...

'IT'S NOT IN THE TRUTH... IT'S IN BELIEVING'

Hug,

Frank
 

frank

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So, actualy, as answer to your question (phew :-D)... You said "I was not convinced SO I tried again..." I'm just curious... What kind of scientist are you...? Mixing things together untill you finaly have invented the Purple rose...?

In China Gunpowder was 'discovered' when someone would in a a scientific aproach looking the elixer of life, and when the experiment failed, again it was thrown away... seconds later there was no lab...

LOOK to what's in front of you, I say :-D...

Huggie,
Frank
 

frank

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Oops, and still no answer to your question, darn, I'm way out of line here... not in my best behaviour... in fact no one saw me do this earlier... Geee... I'm a very desent guy...

Answer: "Can't explain it"...

So, there you go...

Huggie,
Frank
 

jte

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Certainly meaningful repetitions of readings (even including the moving lines) occur. I tend to ask followup questions when I'm concerned about an answer, and I've seen this often enough. For example:

After receiving 50.4 (Hexagram 50 with line 4 moving, a negative reading) I asked a followup question, essentially "what can I do to make this better" and received 50.1.4 (50 with both lines 1 and 4 moving).

Another time I received 1.3.4.6. Focussing on line 6 (which reads roughly "Arrogant dragon will have cause to repent") I asked a follow up question to the effect of "is this really that big a deal? Do I have to *worry* about the line 6 change?) Answer was 1.3.4.

As for being a scientist and wanting to understand how this kind of thing can happen, well it's my understanding that I Ching answers have been studied and they are indeed random. (However, I've never actually seen the research article.)

In spite of this the readings are, apparently, for some of us, meaningful answers to our questions, in addition to being random.

Quite the predicament for a scientist. I'd say that you have in effect "gone down the rabbit hole" by using the I Ching. Welcome, and I'm here to tell ya it can indeed get curioser and curioser - if you haven't yet read Jung's writings on synchronicity, you just might give him a try about now...

- Jeff
 
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bruce

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I?m in a constant state of preponderance, and small things never hold my attention long. Always been this way. The ?meaning of meaning of the being of a being? is my obsession. I especially come to life in the minds of philosophers and the hearts of poets. There?s something about the roof caving in, or looking up and knowing there?s more distance to swim than there is air left to reach the surface, that gets someone?s attention. I am the ultimate test. Are you in?
 

renqizhen

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Receiving an identical gua two or even three times within the span of a lunar month usually indicates that you are missing or refusing to really see something.

It is not there when you look. Yet it is there whenever you do not look. If you really want to see inside it, you have to close your eyes. Use the corner of your eye, deep contemplation or rapid cognition...

Avoid staring at your definition of the situation, as this is too restricted. Step back and reflect on everything, like an old tree atop a mountain that has overlooked a sea for 300 years.

Sometimes we will get the same response to different questions. This indicates a need to reflect on the whole situation from several angles and different perspectives, or a need to address a real problem which you are neglecting.
There is often an underlying theme to a series of answers. No matter what I ask, the Classic of Changes will stay centered around this theme until it has played out fully. This could be an external flow of events, encounters and experiences, or it could be something internal, such as ambitions, behaviors, feelings or even values, that I need to question and re-examine.

I think that you should ask different types of questions. Sometimes specific and other times more general like "what is the important change for me today?" (Although a skilled practitioner, like Carol Anthony, claim to never ask a point blank question, the responses she receives address the same theme from 64 different angles. Maybe there is a hidden question there after all?)

Sometimes we will get similar or identical responses to the same question, like you just did Kawarider. This is one way for the Oracle to make it abundantly clear that: "This message is for you, lady. Take it or leave it, and then move on. There are more important issues confronting you, and there are more people waiting in line here."(In situations like that, Yi may come across more like Whoppi Goldberg in Ghost with Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore than your ancient Chinese sage.)

Often we are too entangled or wrapped up in emotions and personal commitments to discern with detachment. Avoid walking into a dialogue with the Oracle when you are too tired, upset, angry or passionate about something.

If you want something too bad, or if you are already dead set on doing something your way, why bother asking the Oracle for advice? It's like asking friends for help that you don't really want. If you fail to heed their advice, next time they will not lend you their support.

A calm and detached attitude is necessary. Relax before the consultation, and treat your favorite copy of The Classic of Changes with respect. Some people keep it wrapped up in silk on the altar, they pray and meditate and light incense before starting the dialogue. I have usually finished breakfast and enjoyed my first cup of tea before asking. Unless it is a really BIG cross-road question, I tend not to go through this whole incense routine.

Never ask questions that reflect any doubt, or you will get slapped with Youthful folly or something to that effect. Tell the over-rational and scientifically trained part of your brain to please SHUT UP for five minutes only while you trust the intuitive part of your being.

Yi jing is awfully astute at detecting ulterior motives. You need to be up front, open and aboveboard or the Classic of Changes will make it very clear that you are asking for license to do something out of (impure) self-interest...

Please feel free to vist my blog at http://renqizhen.typepad.com

Five blessings!
 
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peace

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Ren Quizhen;

What a wonderful blog.
I particularly enjoyed the planning blog,
You wrote:

"I ask myself three questions during breakfast. What is the most important accomplishment of today? What is most important for the future? What must be completed by end of the day??

---------
I also loved what you said about how you run meetings. I strive for that and am in a similar situation as you are at work, where I conduct so many meetings - I'm always looking for tips.

I will be reading your blog - also great resources listed.

Thanks,
Rosalie
 

kawarider

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I thank you all for your replies. Don't think that I said I am a scientist to get no trust on IChing. I asked the IChing other two times in my life before this, years ago, and they ALWAYS answered something difficult to understand but that then happened. I read to use them only in few times during life, in particular and no-ordinary moments. This is my worst moment in life... and Oracle didn't give me a response at all. Hexagram 28 came two times one after the other in few minutes. Afterwards I asked for more help and hexagram 24. Fu / Return (The Turning Point) with changing lines 1.2.6 came out. The twin hexagram was 4. M?ng / Youthful Folly. I don't understand nothing... I know I asked IChing too many times and M?ng says to me Not ask more... It is so confused...
Hug, Beverly.
 

femke

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Hi Beverly

Sorry, I sort of assumed you were not completely convinced the I Ching works, because you wondered how it can happen that you get the same hex. twice. From an I Ching point of view I'd say: because it's the answer to your question.
From what you did release about it ("this is my worst moment in life"), hex. 28 doesn't sound like an inexplicable answer. It can give directions out or through the moment though. Maybe if you posted your question...?

Love, Femke
 
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bruce

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28 is the perfect (best fit) answer for dealing with the worst moments of your life. If it wasn't, you wouldn't have received it.
 

heylise

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And 4 is usually not a rebuke for asking too often. Maybe occasionally it can be that, but I got it often, and it was never because I asked too often.
I like hex.4, it is of a youthful freshness, a very open way to look at life. Not knowing, it can be the door to another kind of 'knowing', or in the very least to learning.

24 to 4, could it be that you need to find your own simplicity back? A very direct way to deal with things and life and everything. Finding your true own road again.

LiSe
 

renqizhen

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"It is not I who seek the young fool;
The young fool seeks me.
At the first oracle I inform him.
If he asks two or three times, it is importunity.
If he importunes, I give him no information."
From what I can see, Beverly finds it difficult to accept that Yi can give her the same answer twice - immediately after each other.
When the Classic of Changes repeats the same answer, this is often a warning that you're missing something, not paying attention to the whole picture, or too focused on wanting a certain answer.
Asking yet another question often reflects doubt - and that's where "youthful folly" is a pretty straightforward way of saying: "Your question has already been answered. Keep moving lady. Next in line, please."
 

heylise

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If the answer had been "4", I would agree. But it was "24 to 4".

Where is the 24?

The relating hexagram often gives the 'time' or situation, so here 4 is the 'time', and 24 shows you how to reach it in a positive way.

And then, I did not get the impression at all, that Beverly was harassing the Yi.
But this is just my idea, about 4.

LiSe
 
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jesed

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Kawarider

28 points to stress, too much presion about the issue you asked. The advice is: move on?

Now, you can move in two ways:
a) leaving the house, before it crash with you inside
b) reinforcing the main structure

Wich one to take? Your choice, after analyze (with realism) if the situation can be fix or not.

In any case: calm down, search for help, and don't remain stock in an stressful situation.

Best wishes
 

kawarider

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No, I am not harassing I Ching. I'm in a sort of desperation and Renqizhen is right: I wanted an answer, but it didnt come. I wanted "It's all finished" and I Ching said something different or only more complicated.. Life is not so simple instead... I'm trying to understand without desperation or anger or stress... Hug to all of you.Beverly.
 

renqizhen

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Beverly, I hope that you've by now come to terms with the Oracle's response, and that you have let go the feelings of desperation, anger and stress.

Your strong reaction to the unwanted response has lingered in my mind, and I've reflected on this for some time. Today I posted a reflection on this, which begins:

"This is the worst moment in my life," said Beverly. "I asked the Oracle and it didn't give me a response at all. I was a little bit angry and tried again. I received 28 again, the same hexagram. I don't know how to think about all this. What is the meaning?"

Beverly felt disappointed and frustrated. I was surprised by her expression of anger. Why did she associate these feelings of confusion with anger, which is supposedly closer to being enraged, incensed or infuriated?

We often use single word labels - like angry, sad, or happy - for feelings that are infinitely more complex, nuanced and layered. Each strong feeling is personal, yet we assume that it?s not only possible to convey a clear meaning through a one word label, but we expect everyone else to instantly grasp and understand precisely what and how we feel. It doesn?t work that way."

You can read the whole reflection at: http://renqizhen.typepad.com/the_way_of_long_life_and_/2006/02/meditating_on_f.html

Five blessings
 

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