Can't see !

[louise]

Hi all, I've received hex 5 line 4 several times now and would love a bit of clarification on it. Would you say it means that you are in 'cave of blood' and just have to wait it out - or do you think it means get out as fast as you can this is no place to wait ? Do you think this line advises
patience or swift action ?

 

[frandoch]

Hi Louise,

My Twopennyworth:

Michael F.

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">Line 4: YOU ARE IN TROUBLE - THIS IS SERIOUS, BUT !!! You will learn much. This was intended. This is your fulfillment. Get out of this situation as fast and as quietly as you can, but remain gentle, understanding and compassionate to others. This could be your enlightenment. The Universe teaches us in whatever way we need to be taught. It uses the right amount of difficulty and unpleasantness to make us want to change. It enjoys teaching us. It hasn?t got anything else to do.</FONT>

 

[louise]

Ta Frandoch, so you see the line as saying exit the situation for sure ? There was doubt in my mind because some translations seem to say 'you're stuck, don't do anything' where others say, as you have, 'get out of this swiftly'.

 

[martin]

Hi Louise,

I have also looked at different translations and there seems to be some disagreement about this line, as you said.
What I understand is: a period of waiting is perhaps unavoidable, but you don't have to wait in an unpleasant situation or inner state.
You might as well make the best of it.

Lise puts it thus: If you have to wait, then don?t stay in a place not fit for waiting. A bad place, a wrong mind-set, low company.

Makes sense?

Martin

 

[dharma]

Louise, the 4th line of Hx 5 in Sarah Dening's "Everyday I Ching" says:

"The situation is critical. You cannot move forward or go back. All you can do is stand fast and allow events to take their course. It is essential that you stay calm. As emotional reaction will not serve you. To have any chance of getting out of this situation, you must do nothing which might involve you further in it. If you wait patiently, you will be able to extricate yourself in due course."

This seems to indicate that you must escape your situation, however, since you cannot go forward nor go back, the only way to get out would be to avoid getting in any deeper than you already are.

Hope this helps a bit,
Dharma

 

[louise]

Martin, Dharma, thankyou for reaching out to me in my bloodied cave ! Your interpretations differ to Frandochs in that you imply waiting in this place is unavoidable, the only thing to do is not aggravate things, maybe not even struggle to get out of it. Karcher and Frandoch seem more to feel this line says get yourself out of this situation quickly, be active ? I will think some more - thankyou both for your thoughts, they make sense.

 

[frandoch]

Hi Louise,

Hex 5 Line 4 leads to Hex 43. This may help.

Love

Michael F.

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">Key Characteristics: Resolution, Defeating Corruption.

Overview: This hexagram refers to the resolution needed to bring about the overthrow of the still powerful corrupt influence. This is an example of the eternal struggle between good and evil. In overcoming evil, there are certain rules that must be obeyed. Firstly, we must ensure that our resolve is based on strength coupled with good intentions. We should pursue our objectives without animosity, but with a determination to succeed. Secondly, evil cannot be overcome by evil methods. Doing so will result in aiding and abetting evil. Thirdly, we must not engage our opponents in battle. In doing so, we acknowledge their power. Instead we should openly denounce the evil, and demonstrate the virtue of correct conduct. In this way we set an example to those around us, and therefore strengthen their resolve to follow the ?wise?. This course of action will negate the power of our opponents.

Outer World: The top line may represent a corrupt person at the head of an organisation, a family member acting against the interests of the family as a whole, a clique or faction within a group, or a similar situation in any grouping. By following the advice contained in the Overview, a successful outcome is assured, even though there may be some danger in openly denouncing the evil. To protect against this danger, you must avail yourself of any help available. Be honest with your allies. At this time openness will gain you support from those who can help. Any material gains you make during the Resolution must not be allowed to accumulate, because any accumulation builds up until it changes into its opposite, i.e. dispersion or collapse. The ?wise? therefore distribute their good fortune whilst it is accumulating so that the build up does not occur, thus avoiding the collapse.

Inner World: Firstly, you must examine your inner self to ensure that the corruption is not within. Be brutally honest with yourself. If you have feelings of pride about how you have dealt with the situation, or a desire to boast about your virtuous conduct, or anger towards those you feel have caused the problem, or a wish to obtain retribution against your opponent, then these are characteristics of the ego, and you must eradicate them, or you will not be the right person for the task. Instead, develop your inner strengths and your resolve to overcome the ?unwise? in both you and others.

Relationships: Make a stated Resolution to overcome any difficulties that exist. In doing this, and by remembering the rules mentioned above, you will strengthen the relationship.

General: Corruption can?t be overcome by corruption, nor deceit by lies. Truth is the way.</FONT>

 

[louise]

Thanks Frandoch, very timely as have thrown 43 often of late as primary hexagram and was thinking of it.

 

[gene]

Hi everyone.

In hexagram 5 a lot of the concept of waiting is centered around waiting for help. It is not until line 6, at the last possible moment that help comes. This comes unexpectedly. At the last possible moment, often, in life, unexpected help comes from the cosmos. Both action and inaction are implied in line four. We can do nothing about the situation, we can only wait it out. But what we can change is our inner attitude. By changing our inner attitude, we attract "cosmic helpers" so to speak. As long as we are feeling depressed, "in the pit", as long as we worry, we fret, we do not trust, the cosmic helpers cannot come to our aid. We cannot stop fate, but we can go out resolutely to meet it halfway. We need to attain an inner strength that is "stronger than fate."

Gene

 

[gene]

Hexagram 5is followed by hexagram 6 in which it is said, when in a situation of conflict it is best to overcome the conflict fairly by meeting the other halfway. It is the same with fate.

Gene

 

[learner]

Hi Louise,

It might be helpful a personal experience when -having been entangled by a seriously difficult situation- I received Hex 5 with the moving fourth line. By reading the line at that time, I had the perception that I could do absolutely nothing either to improve things or to solve the problem. However, I was waiting with the wrong state of mind, plenty of anxiety and fear. So, I just changed my attitude and trusted that things would clear up. And eventually they did.

All the best,
Learner

 

[louise]

Hi Gene. I've thrown hex 5 line 4 a few times and the other day received line 6 aswell. In my experience what you say is true - when I look back on difficult times the solution has never come through great struggle or through an anxious state of mind - it often comes unexpectedly when one is more in a state of acceptance. I know that, but this time I forgot, panic sets in.

Learner, thanks for sharing your experience, I think you are right, maybe this line is about the state of mind you wait in. Having considered I think this is what it advises, don't wait in bad place mentally, rather than get out of situation immediately - although of course it could mean this sometimes ? Possibly whats puzzling me is the distinction between bad place mentally and bad place in actuality. Reading Karcher I thought
he says get out of this quickly (but I can't)so I guess he could mean get out of negative waiting attitude quickly.

 

[theoldman]

For Louise,

Yes, change your attitude, and find peace.
Why have to win your weaker party AND feel guilty.

 

[louise]

Theoldman, I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean when you say "Why have to win your weaker party AND feel guilty" ?

 

[learner]

Hello Louise,

I tend to believe that Hex 5 fourth changing line talks about waiting in the inappropriate state of mind, based on my personal experience and on the translations that I read as well.
Wilhelm?s translation describes an extremely dangerous situation where one can not move forward but can not withdraw either. It seems to me that this is the meaning of waiting for the ?rain that will fall bringing relief in the appropriate time?. The rain might be the help depicted in the sixth moving line, with the metaphor of uninvited guests. In my view, Hex 5 is about perseverance and patience rather than escaping desperately. I am aware how difficult is to remain in an awkward situation that seems unbearably endless. Honestly, my personal experience has proved that the interpretation of the dreadful fourth line was correct. But obviously there is no guarantee that the same is going to happen to you. Ultimately, it is your decision whether or not to heed the advice.

I sincerely hope the best outcome to you.

Learner

 

[chrislofting]

Hi Learner & Louise,


re hexagram 05, it seems to have its roots in the mixing 47 and 09 where the generic properties of hexagram 05 reflect the mixing of the generic properties of hexagram 09 mixed with the generic properties of hexagram 57.

Thus we find that:

"The generic properties of hexagram 09 are the accumulating of small gains with the intent of using them to serve as foundations upon which to stand to be noticed; this sort of action requires an opportunist mentality. The generic properties of hexagram 57 are in the use of cultivation to become influencial. The combination of these generic states are reflected in the overall properties of hexagram 05 where the 'waiting' for an opportunity is not wasted in that one spends the time 'networking' and so laying-down relationships that can be useful later on. (there is also a sense of 'serving one's dues', 'doing one's apprenticiship, intership etc'." Hexagram Notes (http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/icpoints.html)

If we view this generic form and then zoom-in for the changing line 4 then we have two possible interpretations:

(1) 05 is actually changing into 43 reflecting a change from waiting to doing something in the form of 'spreading the word', as 43 reflects, the 'hard sell' of 'something', the process of spreading the seed, cuttings, etc., IOW one's opportunity has arrived where one's role deals with 'spreading the word'.

OR

(2) 05 is under the influence of exaggeration such that one is trying to 'work' when one should be 'relaxing' but with one eye on the door/job market/gossip etc prepared to grap any opportunity. IOW whilst relaxing one is grabbing little moments of social interaction and moving into the 'sell' phase reflected in 43, the warning is simple, dont do that. ;-)

The line comment for 5.4 can be interpreted as ""One waits by enjoying the moment with drink. A testing time, but appropriate." and this seems to reflect the general comments of (2) above.

Chris.

 

[gene]

Hi Louise

I am still working on the inner meaning of "waiting in blood." Carol Anthony has some ideas, but I am not quite resonating with hers. I am not sure of the inner metaphorical meaning of "waiting in the meadow either." Waiting in the sand can mean holding to thoughts and feelings that cannot truly hold us up, like Jesus parable of the man that built his house on the sand rather than the rock. In the storm it came crashing down. Waiting in the mud can mean ideas or thoughts that bog us down. It is very difficult to move easily in mud. We have ideas that weight us down, and do not do us real good. Waiting in blood is more difficult. One idea is that we hold to ideas, thoughts and feelings that create irritation and retaliation in others. In ancient China it was common to place prisoners in a pit. As such, all they could do was wait for their fate, which often was having the cave filled with dirt, and the prisoner is buried alive. Thus the line says, "get out of the pit." Waiting in blood can be very serious because it means the coming conflict can be very dangerous. In modern times it is more likely we have agitated someone who wants to get revenge. Other analogies are possible. However, the hexagram as a whole is very hopeful because help is promised at the end. (Line 6). Also the judgement says, "If you are sincere, you have light and success." The various lines tells us of ways we may be holding back the help that we need through improper attitudes.

Gene

 

[gene]

Stephen Karcher's ideas on this are interesting. According to his plan, so to speak, line 4 of hex 5 is the incentive for line 3 of hex 6. 6.3 is the manifestation. Karcher's version of line 3 says, "Completing the adversity will open the way." So we have the same concept at play here. One must go through the fire so to speak. But at the end, all will be well, and we will be just that little bit wiser.

Gene

 

[theoldman]

For Louise,

Sorry that I've just come back to read your post to me. And I dont' think I can say something NOW.
Because everything CHANGEs. right?

 

[heylise]

Line 5.4, the Chinese text says:
Wait
In, at
Blood
Issue forth/ come out
(Originating-) from
Cave
I don?t think it says anything like wait!!, on the contrary. But the whole hexagram is not ?wait!?, it is about how to deal with a time of waiting. That can in some cases mean to stop waiting, but in other situations to go on waiting. And in most: how to wait.
They had (have) in China very often too little or too much rain. This hex has more to do with the latter: everything wet, the road slippery with mud, gray skies, endless boredom, and many lived in pits or caves, which filled with water. They sure had to find ways to cope with all this trouble.

5.4 does not say who is waiting, you or something, someone. Kunst translates ?it gets wet in blood, it comes out of its hole?

Blood is a symbol of fears or of ties, usually blood-ties, but they can also be ties with fears or sorrow. Heavy or sad emotions.

LiSe

 

[chrislofting]

Some comments on 5 in general:

In the binary sequence hexagram 05 pairs with hexagram 09.
This pairing reflects the overall focus on betterment, be it through establishing contacts whilst waiting for the 'right moment' (05) or through the summing of small gains upon which to stand and so eventually be noticed (09).

In the binary sequence hexagram 05 opposes hexagram 35.
This pairing reflects the differences between waiting for the 'right' moment (05) as against bringing something into the light based on devotion to that something such that any time is the 'right' time (35).

In the traditional sequence hexagram 05 pairs with hexagram 06.
This pairing reflects the requirements of needing to 'compromise' in development, either through the waiting for the 'right' moment, but also to use the time to nurture relationships useful later (hexagram 05), or through the need to formally compromise as done in legal situations where we meet 'the enemy' half-way, no more and no less (hexgram 06).

In the traditional sequence hexagram 05 opposes hexagram 60.
This pairing reflects an overall sense of limitation, that imposed on the individual by the times as one waits for an opportune moment to take advantage of (hexagram 05), as well as that formally imposed as a necessity in social organisation, where the imposition of standards eases issues of measurements, formal requirements, etc etc (hexagram 60)


**IN particular** note in this next section the hexagrams here that reflect the mixing of their characteristics to become the characteristics we associate with 05:

The generic properties of hexagram 05 reflect the mixing of the generic properties of hexagram 09 mixed with the generic properties of hexagram 57.
The generic properties of hexagram 09 are the accumulating of small gains with the intent of using them to serve as foundations upon which to stand to be noticed; this sort of action requires an opportunist mentality. The generic properties of hexagram 57 are in the use of cultivation to become influencial. The combination of these generic states are reflected in the overall properties of hexagram 05 where the 'waiting' for an opportunity is not wasted in that one spends the time 'networking' and so laying-down relationships that can be useful later on. (there is also a sense of 'serving one's dues', 'doing one's apprenticeship, internship etc'.


In the variations on a theme sequence, hexagram 05 complements hexagram 48.
In this pairing, both hexagrams 05 and 48 reflect a focus on setting foundations, 05 through the use of networking whilst waiting for an opportunity to express oneself, and 48 through the establishiment of a 'well' that serves as foundational source of nourishment for a collective.

These comments extracted from Hexagram Notes (http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/icpoints.html)

I have already commented on how to interpret the particular line change. ;-)

Chris.