Changing lines and secondary hexagrams

[wanderer]

I have heard numberous theories about the relationship of the secondary hexagram and the changing lines to the primary hexagram. All have some resonance, but none is completely satisfying. I have a metaphor currently that seems to work fairly well for me. But I was wondering how other's saw this.

I am not speaking of the meaning of the various hexagrams or of the changing lines. What I want to understand better is the relationship of the primary hexagram to the secondary hexagram and the relationship of the changing lines to both.

Any insight (guesses) would be appreciated.

 

[cheiron]

Hi Wanderer

For me the question is, "Which way is the energy flowing??

This sensing the energy is the difference between a wooden oracle and a living interchange of energy / inspiration between the Yi Jing and I.

Waiting for your metaphor... knowing it will be good...

--Kevin

 

[peter]

An interesting question you raised! Not long time ago I've seen one girl that was sure the second hexagram is the main. She never heard about classical approach and judged only with materials on "Super I-Ching" ("Na Jia" method of hexagram analyzing). At some point she was right, but...

So I asked Yi Jing about this matter; literally my question was: "What are basic relations between primary (ben) and secondary (zhi) hexagrams?" And I received #1 -> #63, Heaven morphing to Finish (Ji-Ji).

Isn't it an interesting result (to say the least)? The very beginning of Wen Wang sequence transforms into the final hexagram of this sequence (#64 Wei-Ji stands aside and is a mediator between #63 and #1 of the next cycle). But structurally it is interesting in the following aspect: Heaven is pure tension, and Ji-Ji is the hexagram with all lines "relaxed" - all the 6 lines fit their places (yang on yang place, yin on yin place). What can we see here?

Personally I see many pairs that fit this scheme. Firstly, Heaven is tension, ergo, Heaven represents a problem, a question, something that causes one to seek answers. And Ji-Ji is an answer, a solution, which causes relaxation and proper actions. So moving lines show what must be done to solve one's problem.

But it is only one variant. There are evidental "temporal" approaches. I mean "asking about future" and "asking about past". In the first case, present moment is shown by primary hexagram, and future moment - by secondary hexagram. In the second case, past moment is shown by primary hexagram, and present - by secondary one.

For social relations (for instance) the primary hexagram represents a main person. A person who controls the situation. (It can be seen in "Na Jia" approach - all elements on moving lines in the primary hexagram control/suppress elements in the secondary hexagram.) If you put yourself in the center of the world - well, then seek your place in the primary hexagram. What for partnership relations, where both partners are equal? Then hexagrams must have equal values, but while you got one hexagram as primary and another as secondary, then you must read primary hexagram.

The most common answer on your question: "It depends". Really, you yourself distribute accents on both hexagrams. Initially it is that primary (root - ben) hexagram is more important, and secondary (side, branch - zhi) only specifies some aspects of the primary. But nobody forbids you to emphasize the second hexagram and consider the first hexagram as some raw material for the second. You want to know, what text lines to read? Again, initially they are lines of the primary hexagram. So if you do not have some "mystical feeling", simply read texts for the primary hexagram. Yes, it corresponds with Cheiron's answer - try to feel how qi (energy) flows and follow it to be in harmony with dao.

What to do with an alone hexagram? Statical, not moving? Well, such dichotomies don't work for it. I think one hexagram is "ding an sich" ("thing-in-itself" in German), so it must have different laws of analyzing.

Hope that helps.

 

[wanderer]

I am somewhat bewildered by the lack of interest in this thread. I am also somewhat bewildered by the absence of guidance from those translating the I Ching or writing books about it.

I am left with two likely possibilities. The first is that it is thought so obvious that no one feels the need to comment or guide. This of course leaves me dense and stupid. And that certainly is possible. The second possibility is that no one knows and is afraid to render an opinion, fearing the appearance of being dense and stupid. That too is a possibility.

The third possibility is that no one is interested in this. That I find hard to believe because it is clearly of extreme import to anyone who consults the I Ching. If we do not have a context in which to consider the words then they are live leaves in the wind.

Perhaps if I venture my current thinking it will give a starting point to the discussion. I did not earlier because I did not want to influence other?s thinking.

There are elements to the puzzle that are givens. That is the place to start. The first given is that we are all on a path, or at least have a path available to us. There is also a goal, which I believe is understood to be the same for all of us. That goal is two-fold. On the spiritual level (Yang) it is to become one with God. We all achieve this goal, but few during our lifetime. The second goal is unity with mankind (Yin). The path to this is through sincerity, humility, and lack of selfishness. Few achieve this goal in our lifetime, but some come close.

The primary hexagram tells us where we are. It describes the situation that we are in. This seems rather universally agreed.
The changing lines indicate a state of flux. What they tell us about the situation we are in is up for debate. But if we use the journey metaphor, we can limit the possibilities. The theory with the most resonance to me is that the changing line (s) point us in a direction. It makes some sense that if we are told where we are (current situation) that the pressing concern is which direction to go.

Now using my western thought, I would assume that the only thing left to know is the destination. But I do not believe this is the case. The destination is fixed. Our destination is always spiritual awakening and harmony in human affairs. So the secondary hexagram can not indicate destination. It also cannot indicate path because the path is the path. It could be the method to get back on the path, but I think it may be the terrain.

If this is true, and I think it might be, I have been misreading for most of my life. This does not matter in some respects, as it does not change what is right. What is right is the great lesson of the I Ching, and of course we all know that before we start. But it does make a difference in other ways in that it makes us confront the fact that life is a never ending process, not one with a definite beginning and ending.

I am reminded of the game of ?pin the tail on the donkey?. For those unfamiliar, the game involves blindfolding children, spinning them around, pointing them toward a picture of a donkey, and having them walk blind and dizzy toward the picture with a tail and a pin, trying to get as close to the spot the tail is supposed to be on. It involves focus, confidence in one?s ability, trust of memory, and a little luck. Does this not sound a little like life?
Using this metaphor would not be too far from the way the I Ching works to help us

 

[peter]

Lack of interest? Well, it is a deep matters, and it can shift one's basis - thing that many people worked on for years. It is as deep as yin-yang and vast variety of their meanings...

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Wanderer-
Third possbility:
Some of us translating and writing books on the Yi have indeed wrestled with this topic at some length and set down our thoughts. Of course we were caught up in that fantasy that our books would actually be studied, avoiding the need to set these thoughts down all over again every couple of months
My own opinions are found twice in the Intro, the first part of the History and under Gua Bian in the Dimensions.
b

 

[bradford_h]

Here's a new metaphor though.
I can consider Ben Gua, Yao Ci (changing line text) and Zhi Gua as beginning, middle and end of the period specified in my question, making it important to be clear with this. Of course, not knowing where the hitches will be will make me want to keep this as vague as my love of vague answers allows.
Let's say I want to know about an upcomig river trip. Things can go wrong before the put-in, a dead car on the shuttle, or the ranger noticing that our permit was issued for 1998. So I might want to make Ben and Zhi Gua the beginning and end of the whole thing. Do I want to know only about the trip between put-in or take-out? Or between the scout above and picnic below the most challenging set of rapids? Or just if I'm going to hit Skull wrong and get trapped in the Room of Doom for 18 hours? (never did)
Without beginning and end specified, all you have is the vector of one moment that the Yi would call your attention to, so I would attend the line text only. But even this moves wildly as the river twists and turns. My generally Southwest trip might appear as trouble while moving Northeast.
I think it's OK to keep this really simple and call Ben and Zhi Gua the beginning and end states of mind, and the Yao Ci as an interpolation or segue between the two, but I think that this underscores our need to make clear inquiries in terms of time spans.
b

 

[cheiron]

I am not sure that being a translator here is the most impotrtant thing... experience and facility with the Yi Jing is essential though.

I am not detracting from translators abilities here either... merely pointing out that developing that essential relationship with the Yi is enough.

For me sometimes the resulting hexagram is actually the present situation in wider context and the Primary hexagram is my particular energy and the moving lines are the points where that energy has a propensity to change under the tensions of my 'being' in that moment.

I generally feel that multiple moving lines can indicate a series of changes through time or might be a single node or complex happening in the time span indicated in the question. (Bad Metaphor: A series of rockets (fireworks) or one of those fireworks which go in a number of directions simultaneously).

At other times I see the resulting hexagram as the likely resulting space after the process of the primary hexagram and the changing lines has been successfully worked through.

I say successfully as there are choice in how we actually handle the dynamic of the moment. however no moving lines is different and a doubled trigram with no moving lines is different again!

To make things more complex... I have had readings where the moving lines clearly represent different players in the 'drama'.

I too do not like to tie it down... sensing the energy of the time and finding my place in it is the most crucial part. So often I see readings as advisories and indications which help me to find the understanding of my 'dynamic' within the 'dynamic' of the time which was open to me all of the time.

It is not all sensing though? an few hours (or preferably a day or two) thinking through and feeling the situation, dumping my fantasies about it, before formulating the question is worth half a dozen questions put in series.

Similarly I find, for grave / deep readings, pondering the complex of the answer slowly foe many hours, within my recent experience of myself and events, is also essential.

I find this slow process helps me connect to the 'time' and that, for me is all.

Why connect? - Try knowing the exact route you are going to take on a car journey... then do it with your eyes shut

- Connection is eyes open.

--Kevin

 

[shelley]

It was here at Clarity, just a couple of months ago, that I first learned that the relating hex might represent the background to the situation, rather than the future. It has made an enormous difference! I'd often been baffled by the relating hex even when the primary seemed quite clear. This way of looking at it often makes a lot more sense.

I still have trouble sometimes with multiple moving lines. Since the only way to get make hex 'a' transform to hex 'b' is by changing those particular lines, maybe the line texts aren't always particularly relevant.

I haven't seen much in this forum on the subject of the ruling lines. Any comments from anyone on how they might help with this?

Love,

Shelley

 

[candid]

I side with Kevin here in ideology.

Not to criticize those other ideas which categorize such things as changing lines and relating hexagram assignments.

How stiff and limited a conversation would be with a teacher who was allowed to speak only within the narrow, specific context of fixed and neatly ordered communication maps, such as assigning fixed order to primary and relating hexagrams.

That's just not the way people communicate ideas, in either direction. To communicate a thought to another, imagination fills in the pictorial thought-landscape. There's lucidity, and receptivity to impressions. Then the hearer can more fully see the idea being communicated. He/she can climb inside the idea, not just observe its appearance.

C

 

[shelley]

I suppose I'd been confined by my lack of faith in my own intuition. My intellect suspected that flexibilty in interpretation would leave me too much room for reading into the text whatever I wanted to see.

I felt a strong and sudden urge this summer to move beyond the interpretations I'd been using and learn more about the imagery in the Yi and how to make my own interpretation. That's what led me to this forum, from which I'm learning so much. And I find that I really can tell the difference between meanings I could read into the text if I tried and meaning that just feels true!

(I'm still interested in the Ruling lines concept, though.)

Love,

Shelley

 

[chrislofting]

The I Ching, as a reflection of recursion etc is focused on 4096 'generic' forms. These come from 12 yes/no questions and reflect a static form, a 12-line form, a dodecagram.

We can take short cuts here and 'compress' the 12 into 6, the six into 3. As we compress so we increase the number of possible answers per question OR lose some resolution in deriving meaning, it is more general than particular. Thus, for example the 'quick I Ching' page (http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/icproact3.html) works off three questions, four possible answers per question (yes/no/yes-to-no/no-to-yes) that gives as a hexagram that is general in that the overall resolution is limited to 64 hexagrams not 4096 dodecagrams.

Thus the moving-line trigram approach reduces resolution for ease in use (and so the 'quick' focus). That said it can also be used to derive moving line hexagrams by doing the process twice and combining the results (thus 'your' perspective is the context and gives you hexagram X. Do it again to get 'their' perspective hexagram. Combine the hexagrams to give a dodecagram as we combine trigrams to give a hexagram. That dodecagram can be 'compressed' into a moving-line hexagram!)

A changing line as such reflects 'doubt', the unstable, that is interpretable from a hexagram level as (a) a distortion of the path through the hexagram, the archetype, and so an example of shape-shifting to 'adapt' to a local event that if not delt with can take one away from the path that is the archetype. Thus in following a path we may get 'angry' about something and so 'distort' ourselves and so our path. That distortion must be treated for what it is, a shape-shift and so we need to get back to the core ASAP. (b) a true 'change' of hexagram X to hexagram Y. This form of change reflects a change in context/core and is considered initially 'positive' in that the change is often a form of escape to something 'better'.

To 'defeat' changes requires the introduction of the opposite hexagram as a response. Thus if 1 is 'changing' into 45 then make 26 the context (or more so introduce elements of 26 to restore the underlying core hexagram perspective. Thus by introducing 26 we 'cancel out' the 45 development and so retain the core path through 1. The issue here is not introducing too much of 26 otherwise another distortion develops!,,,, so the focus is on balance, working through a hexagram as an archetype is a balancing act as one is continually tempted away from the path ;-))

ANY changing lines, from the context of changing-line hexagrams, reflect one of the 63 dodecagrams OTHER THAN the dodecagram that maps to the static hexagram. From the level of meaning as 64 hexagrams so the dodecagrams are the parts that 'sum' to give us the dynamics of the hexagram taken as a whole. Each hexagram unpacks into 64 dodecagrams that can be compressed into... the moving line hexagram.

This is all methodology and the method is applicable to ANYTHING. The CONTEXT that it is applied to will DETERMINE the overall perspectives gained, such that if you focus on 'time' then out will come all meanings associated with time given the range of possible meanings (resolution levels being 8 trigrams or 64 hexagrams or 4096 dodecagrams). The unchanging here is the basic qualities of hexagrams rooted in how we as a species derive meaning. Thus the trigram of earth elicits a 'feeling' of deriving wholeness, or being whole, but drawing something 'in'. period. Thus it reflects total darkness as well as total devotion and any other particular term derived in a particular context that 'fits' the generic sense of contractive 'blending'.

It appears that in the brain any form of CHANGE will reflect, regardless of context, TWO possible forms, one reflects a distortion AWAY from the archetype where the focus is on sticking to the archetype, sticking to the context, and so a warning. The other reflects a definite core change to some other context that is working as a form of escape by need (as in fleeing a situation, as an act of protection) or by exploitation (as in the 'grass seems greener') or enlightenment (a sudden change of paradigm etc that gives 'new eyes' and so core change). These 'transcendence' events initially come with neutral/positive interpretations - as all 'new' perspectives are usually positive, a 'new' adventure ;-)

These perspectives come from analysis of the data from neurosciences etc as to how we as a species derive meaning. We can go 'beyond' the 4096 by introducing moving lines to those symbols but we immediately jump from 4096 possible meanings to over 16+ million (4096^2) and that is too much detail for 'everyday' use - we can learn the 4096 given time and motive and that is enough in that we learn these as 'feelings' as intuitions applicable to a particular event.

(there are issues not discussed here re influence of context, how one hexagram could 'push' another to distort itself etc there are also issues here on dynamics focused on the patterns of five-phase, patterns that seem to be species-wide applicable in their form of production, distribution, filtration, exchange, consumption. - for those see the five-phase I Ching pages - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/icfive0.html)

Chris.

 

[cal val]

Wanderer...

If you do a forum search, you will find volumes and volumes of discourse on this subject. It's come up a few times in the almost year I've been here.

Love,

Val

 

[cheiron]

Someone must be going to give me a drum for Christmas? I seem to be banging one here ? Just my opinions though

After many years of using the Yi Jing, and misunderstanding it too? I have grown to have a sense of the time I am in. More often now I see the seeds developing in the time and know which ones are significant. In other words the Yi Jing is not just an oracle but a viewer which can help us to learn to see.

I believe knowing the space one is in and acting appropriately to the time is more important than knowing the outcome or some possible future were I to follow the route the Yi Jing indicates will move me to some resulting space.

Thus the Yi Jing is not a fortune telling device? I make my future depending on the choices or errors I make? this is why I refer to it as being an advisory to some degree.

Ruling lines: ?Traditionally? (eg most recent Western commentaries) sugest that they are a key to understanding the whole hexagram.

My experience is that they lead one into understanding the whole hexagram as a complex of dynamics some of which might not actually be ?active ?at a particular time.

So with Hx.64 by understanding the whole six lines of that particular change one comes to see the hexagram as a whole. To understand one line in it really requires one to have a grasp of it in relation to the others and to the core meaning of the hexagram as a whole. I cannot do this with all hexagrams yet? each one takes time to plumb. In a slightly inaccurate form, for fun, I recently presented the six changes of 64 as a story which showed how the whole was a dynamic of changes and not a fixed situation even when read without the moving lines.

The ruling line is often the key point in the hexagram when viewing it as a dynamic change of six stages. Thus understanding it in isolation of the whole is not very useful.

Well that?s the way I see it?.

--Kevin

 

[cheiron]

Hi Shelley

For me divination requires ones intuition to be turned up to full volume.

It is a little scary intellectually at first... feels like saying, "I can call an apple a tomato and so that is what it is!" Not so, obviously.

Candid refers to the Yi Jing as a pictorial-thought landscape'... I like that... We have a great facility with images (quite natural) and we know when an image is wrong when placed in another... we sense it... there are rules to the imaginative world too!

However we are often taught to only trust the rules of the logical world and we are taught to distrust everything which is not logical and positivist.

Can I suggest that you play with it... do you readings by your normal method. Then when you are happy engage your artistic/imaginative sense and play with the images... see what works for you (throw all of the rules out? including the received wisdom of how the Yi Jing should be used... Find your way of doing it... it is the only way.

Served up with doubts as an offering

--Kevin

 

[tashiiij]

happy almost anniversary val.

kevin,
"served up with doubts as an offering"

that made me smile. pretty good if you knew the kind of day it's been round here. or is it a week.

lov
tash.

 

[malka]

Chris, I am fascinated and struggling.

How, exactly, does one "apply a context"? I've been reading you long enough to start to follow your thinking process (yeah!) but I'm still confused on application of the ideas.

Are you also saying that we can change the direction something is headed by "applying" the appropriate "curve in the road," so to speak? If yes, how do I go about deciding what the curve ball or antedote to a scenario might be?

Blessings,
Malka

 

[chrislofting]

Hi Malka,

to apply a context means to assert the properties and methods of a particular perspective, one sets the tone rather than responds to someone elses.

As to 'antidotes' - if a situation is being drawn to hex 23 then to draw it 'back' use the properties of hex 23s opposite - hex 43. Just be wary in that too much of 43 can cause a distortion in the other direction! - by this I mean that if the 'archetype' of the situation is hexagram 32 and it is distorted towards 23 then apply some of 43 to cancel the distortion and bring back things to 32.

The 'traditional' perspectives are often strongly reactive in tone. Which is understandable given the times and the lack of knowledge re nature, universe, psyche etc etc We know enough these days to be more proactive if need be - or we can do nothing and go where things take us! - our choice. ;-)

The proactive path will require energy in that the 'pull' of something can be strong, as can the 'push'. Your consciousness, your will, is there to serve you in dealing with the 'push n pull' of things - to be able to put yourself in a context of your choosing, or of your creation (even harder to do but can be benefical in the long run). If you cannot escape a context for whatever reasons you can 'sow seeds' by introducing 'different perspectives' in a subtle way and so at least adapt some of that context to your 'comfort zone' and so tolerate the 'stress'.

NOTE - to do these sorts of changes you need to be very sure of the 'best fit' hexagram, something not guaranteed using the random methods - and so the use of questions. The issue there is the need to be honest in answering those questions - if need be get someoneelse to do answer with you and compare the results to bet a 'best fit' overall.

Chris.

 

[chrislofting]

oops - in the last para it should read 'GET a 'best fit' overall'.

Chris.

 

[wanderer]

I want to thank all those that wrote, both publicly and privately on this subject. All the opinions have some merit. I cannot shake the feeling though that we are all over-thinking this. The intention of the writers of the I Ching probably thought that the relationship of the parts was so clear and obvious that it did not have to be explained. Equally as clear, it has become less obvious over time. That each of us has a different view of what that relationship is has a lot to do with who we are.

The major change I believe is the world we live in. I do not believe that anyone living 3000 years ago could have anticipated such a noisy world. We have so much going on in our heads that when we visualize one question, we have a thousand other ones in some form or another. In such an environment it is truly amazing that the I Ching works at all.

Someone that lived 3000 had a fairly simple life. The questions they asked were extremely well defined. A question that dominated their thinking and would have great impact on their life. We all know that the clearer the question, the clearer the answer. Again I believe that in keeping with the nature of ?The Book of Easy?, the answers were also easy.

Has anyone heard of a method of consideration that includes a fourth stage? Primary hexagram, changing lines, the hexagrams that each line connects to (i.e. 1 to 44 bottom line and 1to 13 second line) and finally secondary hexagram 1 to 33. It seems that to understand better the first line of hex 1, one must read hex 44.

For those that feel that this discussion has been repetitive, I apologize. This topic has great significance to me at the present and I needed some different perspectives to shed light on my own.

 

[wanderer]

Chris,

In being pro-active it is crucial that only the Superior Self act. When the lesser selves try to be pro-active we get ourselves into deep doo.

 

[cheiron]

Hi Wanderer

This sounds like Stephen Karcher's Inner / Outer Operator technique.

Here are my notes from his book Total I Ching 2003. (I hope I do his idea justice)

Synchronicity?

I have just spent four or five hours studying his ideas

Change Operators:

Inner World Change pattern (or Change Operator) -A Yin line placed where a Transforming Line exists in the Primary (Cast) Hexagram; and a Yang line placed where there is no transformation. This pattern shows, "the place where change occurs and its inner transformative aspects." (Karcher 2003) It shows what areas might be 'fertile' for change in ones inner world, as opposed to largely fixed. This hexagram provides a general picture of what can be changed in ones inner world to move through the change as a whole - the landscape that defines the scope for change. If there are any moving lines in the inner (lower) trigram, it may be connected with them.

Outer World Change pattern (or Change Operator) - A Yang line placed where a Transforming Line exists in the Primary (Cast) Hexagram; and a Yin line placed where there is no transformation. This pattern shows what outer world action is liable to lead to constructive movement through the change in question."

These notes are a little dry... He did a demonstration online some time back and I found the use of it quite impressive.

I think these are the two links:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/673.html?

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/680.html?

I enjoyed your question BTW... made me think.

Warm regards

--Kevin

 

[cal val]

Cheiron...

There's a HUGE difference in thinking between inner/outer and higher/lesser. I much prefer inner/outer. The latter is tres condescending and does not make for effective communication beteen my inner and outer selves. Not one part of me likes the other(s) to condescend. It's not about control...it's about cooperation. I seem to cooperate better with myself when I treat all parts of me with respect.

Love,

Val

 

[cheiron]

I agree with you Val... most definitely... not sure what it is I said that you are referring to though...

Was it.."If there are any moving lines in the inner (lower) trigram, it may be connected with them."

That Lower refers to the physical position of the trigram not its value...

Help!!

Warmly

--Kevin

 

[cal val]

Furthermore...

because higher/lesser are definite value judgments, I don't believe it behooves a person who wants to enjoy ideal communication with anyone, including themselves, to regularly employ them. Again, value judgments are about control, and control does not make for healthy relating. The goal is to avoid control...not justify it.

Love,

Val

 

[wanderer]

It is difficult to avoid the use of Higher/lesser or Superior/Inferior, because those are the words of choice throughout the I Ching.

Perhaps a better solution is to find a way to accept them without prejudice. Certainly the Higher Self must act without judgement and prejudice. But that does not mean that it is unaware of what is right and what is childish.

If the Higher Self can mimic the view of most parents toward a child, then respect is not an issue. I know that there can be all sorts of abuse, but in most cases there is intense love and caring.

 

[cheiron]

Val

Hmmm... rereading the thread... see where you are coming from... Higher / Lesser...

For 'higher' well, I will not mention the Connected self on this thread again I promise.

I prefer 'shadow' not lesser.

Karl Jung made quite a study of the rise of Hitler and other associated trends (which took place in both the UK and USA as well as France? but never quite caught hold in the same way).

He concluded that the cultural rejection of our shadow selves was a direct cause of it bursting forth and dominating in that terrible way.

He concluded that we had to explore and become friends with our shadow selves as to do otherwise would empower it as we saw in the 1930?s.

Yes, we cannot stand in the sunshine without seeing our shadow.

Warmly

--Kevin

 

[cal val]

Kevin...

I was thinking you were comparing the Inner World/Outer World concept to Wanderer's higher/lesser selves concept. Were you not?

At any rate, I connect Karcher's outerworld changes to the world of the outer self, and his inner world changes to the world of the inner self. And I prefer that concept over higher/lesser.

When I came to the forum, I thought in terms of higher and conscious selves...never lesser though *wrinkles nose* Once I started thinking in terms of inner/outer instead, I was able to treat my inner self with respect and listen, which, in turn, started blabbing and telling me just why I've been afraid all these years. And, as you know, that kind of revelation is most liberating.

So now I see higher/lesser bantered around here a lot, and I realize just why that kind of thinking worked against me. Besides, another benefit to thinking in terms of inner/outer is that now I feel quite comfortable cuddling me. I'm not comfortable at all with the thought of a higher and lesser self cuddling. It seems to me they would want to avoid each other. Especially if they're constantly engaged in power trips.

Love,

Val

 

[cheiron]

oops I missed a beat there going on about shadow which is a component of our inner self... What some might call 'higher self' I prefer to call the connected self...

I sometimes refer to inner and outer worlds... I find that useful...

No, higher / lower self for me does raise the specre of rejecting parts of me... and thereign lies the beginnings of developing a complex or neurosis... We must integrate ourselves which means loving all of it.


No Val... I think we are in agreement here

--Kevin

 

[cal val]

Kevin...

You said:

He concluded that we had to explore and become friends with our shadow selves as to do otherwise would empower it as we saw in the 1930?s.

You got it! I mean Jung got it. I like that. Though I don't see her as a shadow, I do know she lived in the shadow all those years. She was a frightened little girl who was traumatized by a series of events, and she hid in the shadows and maintained control over my intimate relationships from there. She attempted to control everything with her childlike perspective because she didn't trust any adult, not even me, to handle things properly. Once I changed my language to reflect her importance, she started trusting me and came out of the shadows and started talking...blew me away...and all I could do was hold her. Then I realized how important our friendship is...more important than any other in my life. So now whenever I'm feeling tearful I ask her why and I hold her, and recently when I was enjoying a sunset, I held her and asked her if she was too. What are friends for anyway, if not to enjoy a sunset together.

Love,

Val