Changing Lines

[peace]

Hi:

This is very elementary but....

What does it mean when a line changes?

Does it mean that the line is in excess?
So, if a yang changes to yin - does that mean that the yang went "over the top" and now it's a yin - like too much of a good thing????

When I read the changing lines - I'm understanding that the line changes - but I don't really understand what it changes from.

Hope this makes some sense.

Thanks,
Rosalie

 

[frank]

Hi Rosalie,

For what's worth, I have read somewhere that a 'changing' line is actually 'old', and have to make a place for the new... Like everything changes in this world all the time, a Yang-changing line could say... take it a bit easy... (changing into yin), and a Yinline could say, it's time for action...

Does that make some sense?

Hug,
Frank

 

[peace]

Thanks. I'm going to see if I can read up on it.

Rosalie

 

[bruce]

Hi Rosalie,

Something which reaches it's end or limit then turns into its opposite. Because an idea or natural principle comes into being doesn't mean it should become a fixed "thing" and last forever. Take a great inspiration, for example. It comes into being like a child, lives itself for a time, and then it does one of two things: either it becomes a static "thing" or an established dogma (religion, philosophy, etc.), or it can dissolve and be born into it's opposite, anew.

 

[bruce]

Or, take a tree, for example. It begins as a sprouting life form, strives for life, grows and becomes mature. Then it dies and returns to the earth, losing its something-ness - but not before dropping its seeds to the ground: yang to yin to yang to yin, and on and on.

 

[bruce]

Reminds me of the Buddhist monk who was reincarnated as an accountant.

 

[bruce]

?The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose. The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits. All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea [is] not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.? ~ Ecclesiastes

 

[hilary]

Blogged!

Now... Bruce, since you're on a roll, what difference does it make to a reading whether your moving line is changing from yin to yang, or from yang to yin? Do you look at which way it's going and make that part of your understanding somehow?

 

[bruce]

Hi Hilary,

Now you're making me think.

The most obvious shift in content value (for me) is whether to move or steady, as the line would indicate. If day is turning to night, and I'm not an especially skilled or intuitive nocturnal hunter, it's better to hold back and rest until morning. So in that example, the changing yang line goes into retreat mode.

I make only vague or ghost like images of the specific meaning given to each line. I see them quite fluidly, and also homogeneously, in some cases. But when a yang changes to a yin, or vv, that puts a bias on whether to act or withdraw; again, as it pertains to that specific line.

For me this is all done at a glance, at first. And the glance usually turns out to be more accurate than my analysis of it after. What I'm saying is that this particular feature of a yin line becoming yang and vv, either strikes me in a particular reading or it doesn't. I don't place huge emphasis on those sorts of details. (like when I see a pregnant woman, I don't ask how...

)

 

[hilary]

Making you think? Dear oh dear...

This is one of those 'really should look into it' things for me. I'm not sure whether it is possible to find a meaning general enough to be universal for 9 or 6, or whether you'd have to take a whole bunch of other factors (not least line position) into account before this could really contribute to readings.

I asked Denis Mair about this a while back. His first comment was for yang lines, look to its 'template' in hexagram 1, and ditto for yin lines in hexagram 2. (Oh, and he recommended LiSe's work - sensible man.) Second thing he said - and I hope he wouldn't mind my quoting him -

"I think a changing yin line in general indicates that something has been building up, and will now emerge. There has been an incubation, otherwise yin couldn't change. By contrast, yang's nature is dynamic to begin with, like a pinball ready to drop. A changing yang line may settle into a certain direction of action, out of an elastic, indeterminate phase."

Very interesting ideas. (He has a website full of them.) I don't feel as if I've paid enough attention yet to these things...

 

[peace]

I'm glad other people have some curiousity about this. I thought it was a stupid question with me being the only one who didn't know this.

I like the idea of the yin incubating and then when ready, becoming yang as Bruce said - and also what Hilary said about going back to line position templates. I particularly liked what Bruce said about the Zen becoming the accountant.

So - now I'm wondering if I'm more yin than yang -and what I'll change into! (Help!)

Thanks,
Rosalie

 

[bruce]

Giving more thought to this matter of what impact a changing line has, as it pertains to yin and yang, it doesn?t (to me) necessarily follow a specific pattern that I can see, other than by general impression in specific cases. I?ve just looked up a few examples to check against the theory I put forth, and I can?t say it holds much substance. I also checked the yin/yang movement compared with the fan yao, and while I can make it fit through rationalization, it doesn?t appear consistent enough to apply in anywhere near every case.

Sorry, Hilary, but I can?t say I can find a repeatable methodology in this dynamic.

That?s what I get for thinking!

 

[peace]

Hi Everyone:

I'm copying this from a book - Anthony - I Ching.

"The maximum point for etither the yang or yin influence is the point of change towards the opposite.

When the yang energy reaches its maximum thrust, the yin polarity takes over, drawing the energy to itself; reaching its maximum, it then reflects the energy back again towards the yang pole where one again, the pull of the yang force takes over.

Changing lines are seen as "unresolved" lines which reflect unresolved elements in our situations; these lines must change to the opposite to become resolved - and in changing them, a new hexagram is created.

The new hexgram shows the direction in which the situation is moving, thus we are able to obtain a complete perspective.

If we have not received sixes or nines, the individual lines have no special significance for us and the hexagram is meant to be contemplated as a whole.

Reading all the lines helps us understand the way movement takes place in this hexagram - but it is not necessary.

The new hexagram is contemplated as helping to define the meaning of the first hexagram.
---------------------


Hope that helps.
Rosalie

 

[jesed]

Just in case the commentarie could be useful

I'm quite shocked by this post
"what difference does it make to a reading whether your moving line is changing from yin to yang, or from yang to yin?"

Seems the basis of fundemantal laws of I Ching are missing.

1.- I Ching try to put in images the Universal Laws. The most you knows Universal Laws, the best you can understood I Ching

2.- There are 8 fundamentals Laws; and another 8 derivated Laws to understand Reality (and I Ching)

3.- One of the Law is there are 4 Forces withing any situation: Tao, Heaven, Earth and Man. Each one of them have it's own Direction of Movement. Because this Law, you can predict the Direction of Movement of Heaven, Earth and Man within any situation (so, you can predict the whole Direction of Movement of the situation)

4.- There is also a Law about Change: there are tree stages of Change (Acumulation, Transformation and Mutation). Of course, it means there is a diference between Transformation and Mutation. The Changing Line shows, precisely, the stage of Change withing the situation: acumulation, transformation or mutation.

5.- Derived from that, the Change can be "forward" or "reward". This is another important diference between yinn==>yan or yang==>yinn

Best wishes

 

[bradford_h]

To Hilary's question:

"what difference does it make to a reading whether your moving line is changing from yin to yang, or from yang to yin? Do you look at which way it's going and make that part of your understanding somehow?"

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that with regard to understanding the Zhouyi, or original part, it makes no diffrence at all. While the Zhouyi authors had an understanding of opposites and their interdependence or interplay, Yin and Yang were not to become a significant part of Chinese thought for another 500 years. Notions of opposites were mainly developed in Hexagram pairs which had some sort of structural or pictorial relationship, like Qian and Kun or Sun and Yi (Decrease and Increase). Changing lines, regardless of whether Yin or Yang, change one Gua into another, giving us Ben and Zhi Gua, or new Zhen or Hui Gua (lower and upper trigrams). This I think was the extent of the significance of changing lines or Yao originally. The Wings authors would later make a big deal of Yin and Yang, wihich they still usually called Rou and Gang, but I think the insights they derived from this and applied retroactively to the Zhouyi were for the most part accidental.

 

[jesed]

Hi Bradford

What question is most importan about evolution of I Ching:
a) "is accidental or intentional discovering?",
b) "is later or older discovering?" or
c) "is useful or unuseful discovering?"

Is like Chris efforts and discoverings: there are later than others (2005 and go on...) but the REAL question is: Is it useful? I think it is, in deed.

So, I wouldn't say "don't pay attention to Crhis' essays because is not original material in Zhouyi". Neither related to others developments.

Best wishes

 

[bradford_h]

Jesed-
What's why I qualified my statement so carefully and applied it so strictly to the Zhouyi.
There is a way to test it too. Look for occurences of the so called mantic expressions, especially the ones used more frequently, like ji, xiong, li (reward), li (difficulty), lin, hui, wu jiu, etc. and see whether they are used with greater frequency in 6 or 9 lines. It would likely have to be more than double to be statistically significant. This would certainly show whether the authors saw the two line types in themselves as meaningful.

 

[hilary]

Great! nothing like a little shock value to draw people out.

So, if I'm following you (Jesed), the idea is that yin moves forward to yang, and yang falls back into yin?

How do transformation/ accumulation/ mutation relate to 6s or 9s?

(Brad - like Bruce, I couldn't find any consistent themes, but I haven't done a really thorough study. I know yin/yang is a later development, but broken/solid might in theory still have some intrinsic meaning. Hard to pin down, though...)

 

[jesed]

Hi Bradford

Yes; I had notice the careful expression you used. I think I'm the one that didn't express well.

The question of Hillary talks about the use for ACTUAL readings. So, understanding that your commentarie was about orignal text, I was trying to point the question: Actual readers can find useful the theory of yin/yang even if it is a later development?

Hi Hillary
Transformation is firm changing to soft; mutation is soft changing to firm.
In every situation, you can find both "forward" and "reward" movements. One use "forward" movement to know where the situation is coming from; and "reward" movement to know where the situation is going to.
"Forward" and "reward" is related to the Post-Heaven order.

Best wishes

 

[bruce]

"Hard to pin down, though..."

Wellerrr, maybe it can't be pinned down. But neither does it necessarily never come to play. Yang's nature is not to be pinned down. Yin is grounded, or rather, is ground. So yin can be pinned down. hmmph.. I wonder then if the key to what you're looking for might be in the yin side of every change line, regardless which direction it's going.

 

[kevin]

Pin down 1. A bolt of lightening. A flash of inspiration.

Pin down 2. The shadow moving accross a hillside. The way a staff team takes the insight and re-manifests what it is doing.

Not 'So' Easy.

(Naughty - Sorry)

--Kevin

 

[bruce]

Not So!

 

[peace]

Hmmm! Maybe I shouldn't have asked the question!
Kevin - what do you mean by Pin down 1 and 2. Is that like pinball???

Rosalie

 

[kevin]

Hi Peace

No - very good question. Its made me play around with some ideas ? thanks

I was attempting a word play on one of the posts above. To ?pin down? meaning to define exactly.

Those two hexagrams, particularly, are almost indefinable. Unless they are in reference to a particular question put to the oracle. They are the two primal forces which weave the cloth of life. Or are they woven?. Their interplay is the structure running throughout the whole of the Yijing.

Bruce ? Knew I could count on your wit! Brilliant The interplay of So and Not So was very thought provoking.

Warmly

--Kevin

 

[kevin]

Here is a bit of musing:

Taking a hexagram and line almost at random.

34.2 A time of Great Invigorating. Inspiration in the lower hexagram of the inner world and Thunderous change above in the outer world.

Line 2 is the centre of our inner world. It is the balance point where ideas and potentials might generally be seen as having formed within us before moving toward precipitation into the outer world. (When the 'action' moves through line 3 to 4.)

When it changes:
The inspiration (Bright Line) becomes so developed so full it becomes a dark line of manifestation. In life we might say that the inspiration becomes so powerful at the centre of our inner world it becomes not 'just an inspiration' but manifests real things within us.

So the lower trigram becomes Li ? Clarity, brightness, clinging. This gives 55 Abounding. The dramatic change of 34, thunder in the outer world changes to 55 and the change is now well informed by bright perception within the person - so that great things can be done, They are organized and can be manifested in great works.

The reverse is also a truism:

When the manifestation of the trigram Li becomes over great in its centre. That is the fire or perception is too bright it ceases to manifest and becomes pure inspiration?

Any Jazz players here?

In a little more detail. The time of Feng / Abundance is radical change in the outer world focussed and held by the Clarity of Li in the inner world. Great things come from it ? Abundance manifests. Li itself is bright inspiration manifesting at its centre with that dark line. That line ?holds? the inspiration and manifests it into Abundance.

Going the other way - When the manifestation in line 2 is overfull and it becomes a bright line of inspiration ? trigram Qian ? The situation is reflected in 34. A time of thunderous change in the outer world, driven by inspiration and creativity? but lacking that manifesting line in position 2.

Could one of the differences between 34 and 55 be that 34 does not yield so much (material) abundance because it lacks the dark line in the second place?

Sorry ? all that was a bit repetitive ? my attempt at manifesting clarity.

--Kevin


PS - For simplicity I have assumed that the inner world drives the outer world - of course there is constant interplay between them.

 

[jte]

Jesed, from your post above:

"Seems the basis of fundemantal laws of I Ching are missing.

1.- I Ching try to put in images the Universal Laws. The most you knows Universal Laws, the best you can understood I Ching

2.- There are 8 fundamentals Laws; and another 8 derivated Laws to understand Reality (and I Ching) "

Do you have a reference for these 16 "laws", I'd be interested in seeing the whole list of them and the tradition they are from. (Hopefully this is available somewhere in English, else I guess I'm gonna have trouble getting this info...)

Thanks!

- Jeff

 

[jesed]

Hi Jeff

Some of those Laws (not all of them) are descibed in "The Book of Changes and the Unchanging truth" from master Huan-Ching Ni.

The only book I now that describes the 8 fundamental laws and the 8 derivated Laws is "I Ching: El canon de las Mutaciones. El septimo tiempo" (I Ching: The canon of mutations. The 7th Time) from master Ricardo Andre?. It is in Spanish

And those are real Laws, not "laws", as much as Gravity Law and Relativity Law.

Best wishes

 

[soshin]

Hi, Kevin,

let me be the second one around here to jazz a little bit.

I took a hexagram - almost random, like in your case. ;-)

It was 9, The Taming Power of the Small, third line changing to 61, Innter Truth.

OK, as I am a frog of very little brain and even littler capabilities in English ;-), I have to hold it short...

9. Lower Trigram Chien, The Creative; Upper Trigram Sun, The Gentle (Wood, Wind).

61. Lower Trigram Tui (Lake); Upper Hexagram, Sun again, of course.

The third line, a Yang, changes into a Yin.

So, what possible information can I get out of those ominas, without knowing what the Yi says regarding the text of the line. (This is the first moment for a long time I'm happy for not knowing the Yi's text by heart).

Let me see...

Inspiration/Creative Force in the inner world, and in the outer world the subtlety and gentleness of the Wind.

Line 3 is the borderline of our inner world, trying to step over to the other side of the gorge on its way up.

Accumulate and nurture the small on the ground of/on the way to/ inner truth.

Inspiration becomes Joy. Very Good! Out of that, Inner Truth..... On the other hand, joy is not always something good.

Threes are in an unstable position, furthermore it is a yang in a yang position which makes this one too strong. But on the other hand it becomes a yin, riding on a yang, which is good.... Too much joy? Too much Wang Bi/Lynn lately... ,-)

OK, i don't know anything about that all, that gets too confusing, let's stick with Kevins way...

The Dao of Inner Truth is Subtlety and Gentleness in the outer world, Joy in the inner world. (Phew, beautiful!) This is obviously a very good Dao.

The Dao of the Taming Power of the Small is Subtlety in the outer world paired with the creative inspiration of Chien in the inner world.

But the overall concept of 9 is also the accumulation of the small to get great things done.

Yeah, I got something: Inspiration in its own is not sufficient to make the Joys of inner Truth happen. And Inner truth needs the yin becoming yang to Accumulate the Small to get something great done.

Phew....

I let it rest on you, mea publico, if that makes any sense to you.

I think this musing is at least very interesting.

As for the line, I dunno. Out of the guts, I would say not a favourable one cause of (see above). But I could be totally wrong.

So, now I stop writing, I am absolutely and extremely courious about the line statement.

Namaste,

Soshin

 

[soshin]

Ah, it's the family quarrel line.

But shortly before I wrote this I understood that trying to figure out what possible omen the line statement could carry wasn't part of that jazz tune.

Even better. Anyway, Wang Bi has a totally different way how he comes to the conclusion that 9,3 is unfavourable.

Back to the books again. Hope I don't become a confusionist... ;-)

Again, very, very interesting, this musing. I should do one of those musings each day....

Habe die Ehre,

Soshin

 

[jesed]

Just in case the commentarie could be useful

"As for the line, I dunno"
9.3
a) third line of Heaven.. it's an excees of energy/activity (that's not good)
b) second line of inner trigram Joy... (a centered joy is needed to balance excesive energy)
c) fist line of inner trigram Fire (the begining of clarity of vision is needed to do a kind aproach to outer world)
d) The line is in 3rd position. It is a transitional position; so this position needs precaution. An excess of energy in a position that needs precaution is not good
e) The line doesn't have a good correspondence with 6 line (both are firm lines). That's no good
f) The Line doesn't have a good solidarity relationship with line 2. That's no good
g) The line does have a good solidarity relationship with line 4. So, if follows the advice of line 4 (a truthful heart), he/she could be safe, and "blood will vanish"

So, there is danger because excess of energy (like husband and wife fighting each other); the Subject needs go to Inner Truth to avoid danger. This Inner Truth (truthful heart) is the begining of the clarity of vision to act in the outer word. Without it, pitfall in his/her outer-world action

best wishes