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Children in the future?

clarissa

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Hi,

I'm new at this. I asked the I Ching about me, someone I met recently...and children in our future. (We are both 40 and without children). It gave me...

2 (changing line 1) -> 24

Any thoughts.
 

dobro p

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I don't draw 2.1 very often. It seems to be pretty special. It seems to indicate the beginning of something, which if acted on, will mean a very significant outcome.

BTW, did you ask the Yi about kids before you asked him about kids?
 

clarissa

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Yes. However, I already knew that he wanted children. Why do you ask?

I found the changing line puzzling. Wilhelm's translation says,

"When there is hoarfrost underfoot,
Solid ice is not far off."

That sounds rather negative. However, 24 seems positive.
 

cal val

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Clarissa...

"When there is hoarfrost underfoot,
Solid ice is not far off."

It's not negative at all. There's a really informative bit in Steve Marshall's "Mandate of Heaven" (that I think you would find very illuminating) about it referencing a rather ancient Chinese courtship and marriage ritual.

If you're a squirrel and there's hoarfrost underfoot, it means you'd better be sure you've gathered all the nuts you'll need to get you through the winter because winter is not far off.

If you're a woman contemplating a family, it means your biological clock is probably very near the 11th hour, and you don't have a lot of time left.

Love,

Val
 

dobro p

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I used to think it was negative as well, but now I simply think it means the very beginning of a process that will firm up soon.

(Oh - I asked if you had asked him about it, because sometimes people ask the Yi things when they could just as easily ask somebody else. Sometimes people consult the Yi as a substitute for ordinary communication. That wasn't you in this case, though.)
 

clarissa

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Hi Val,

Thank you for your comments. Unfortunately, I don't have any way of obtaining Steve Marshall's book at the moment. Can you briefly fill me in on what his thoughts are?

The part about squirrels gathering for the coming Winter is definitely pertinent. I AM very worried about my future and having enough "nuts" to sustain me. Of course, the biological clock part is also pertinent. Very, very interesting! Amazing really.

What do you think hexagram 24 means? Is that basically a positive response to my query...or not?

Thank you,
Clarissa
 

cal val

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Good morning Clarissa!

Well well well... I must have been having a psychic moment this morning... *wink* because I thought that by now your question had probably been well hashed out and answered, but I grabbed The Mandate of Heaven on my way out the door and threw it in my bag... in the off chance the opportunity presented itself to quote from it. And... lo and behold... the opportunity did indeed present itself! And I think you're going to love it... *grin*

Quoting from Steve Marshall's book:

<blockquote>"Fornication outdoors is a great taboo in China. It was euphemistically referred to as 'stepping on green' when lovers who had 'come to meet' at the spring love festival withdrew from prying eyes and went into the hills to sample the new spring grass. In the Book of Odes the parallel expression relating to the autumn,'stepping on hoarfrost', is associated with marriage. This phrase occurs in the first line of hexagram 2, which appears to have originally meant that the time for marriage was fast approaching... [deleted Steve's telling of Ode 34] As it says in the Yijing: 'Stepping on hoarfrost, solid ice is not far off.' What this means is that by the time time hoarfrost in underfoot one should be thinking about getting married, or the seasons will inevitably roll on and before one knows it there will be solid ice. By the time the ice has melted the traditional time for marriage will have been lost, the couple will not have had a winter shut up in their house together. The Neo-Confucian interpretation of hexagram 2/1, that hoarfrost underfoot indicates encroaching danger (a slippery path ahead?) is specious."</blockquote> Either the Neo-Confucians didn't research their history as well as Steve Marshall has, or they simply chose to ignore it.

The Mandate of Heaven is full of many more illuminating gems like this one... it's main theme actually is the historical evidence behind the solar eclipse in hexagram 55... quite a revelation... and when you have the chance to get it, I strongly recommend it. It's a keeper.

Love,

Val
 

clarissa

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Hi Val!

Well, that was certainly interesting! I asked about children and got a message about marriage. OK..so, is it hinting that marriage (and children) to this person is in my future..but I better act quick?

I also got 24...that "turning point" that keeps showing up everywhere.
 

cal val

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Good morning Clarissa!

I'm glad you enjoyed Steve Marshall's quote. I generally don't take any analogy ("Stepping on hoarfrost...") too literally, but since you asked about marriage and children... hmmm... this one seems especially appropros.

And it's not difficult for me to imagine why it was important for married couples to be locked up together during the winter months in ancient China. Have you ever noticed how many of your friends were born around late September-early October. There's more than ONE way to keep warm (and entertained) during the winter... *grin*

"I better act quick"? You keep getting hexagram 2... that's about being receptive rather than acting. If I were to get that, I personally would avoid any action until it became obvious what action to take, and I'd keep my ears and eyes open... receptive to things... to the Yi... to my dreams... to events and the actions of others... coming my way that would further my goal.

Besides a turning point (subject), hex 24 is also returning (predicate... action). Returning to what? To a relationship? To the spiritual realm? To the flesh? To the path? From a mistake? To the self? Yes to all of the above... and so much more. Just before Dobro started the spiritual hierarchy thread, I had asked the Yi if they was a spiritual layering. They answered 23.1.6 to 24... a very succinct yet powerful answer. The peeling away of the flesh leaving the uneaten fruit... the soul? the essence? and the return to the flesh.

I've found after about 30 years experience (slow learner?... *grin*) that when the Yi gives me hexagram 8 or 1 with another hexagram, it often means to initiate the action of the other hexagram. And when they give me hexagram 2 as one of the hexagrams, it often means to be receptive to the action in the other. That's not always the case, and I read the changing the lines for clues there as well, but it's something I always consider in my answer. So...

If the Yi screamed hexagrams 2 and 24 at me the way they have at you, I'd suspect they were telling me to be receptive to returning... to the action of returning, but I'd ask follow up questions to be certain and to get details, such as "What should I be receptive to?" "Is this about a turning point or the action of returning?" "If it's the action, return to what?" or "Return from what?" etc. They're trying to tell you something that's important for you to know, so I feel pretty certain they'd answer.

Returning to my statement that I personally wouldn't take any analogy in the Yi too literally... I keep in mind there are layers to the Yi and layers of understanding and the Yi speaks to our own layers... in symbols. They will answer a question about the stock market... and they will also take me deep inside myself to look at what's lurking in the shadows and help me exorcise anything there that's getting in the way of my having what I want. I always keep that in mind as well when I read my answers.

Love,

Val
 

schastlivchik

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A humble guess would be that if you two were to decide to have a baby, that it would happen quickly, and that it would be a son, because of the Zhen trigram in the final hexagram.
 

clarissa

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Hi Val,

I took your advice and asked two of those questions you mentioned.

What should I be receptive to?
Answer: 14.1.2.3 -> 35

Is this about a turning point or the action of returning?
Answer: 13.1.4 -> 53

Thoughts?

Clarissa
 

clarissa

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Hi,

I also asked,

"What should my attitude toward X be?"
Answer: 53.4.5.6 -> 62

This seems similar to the message I've been getting all along...that this isn't something that's going to happen overnight but rather is happening slowly...and that I should be patient, keep a low profile...and wait. Of course, I could be way off.
 

cal val

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Hi again Clarissa...

WOW... At first glance and from a gut level, I'd guess you've got a wonderful partnership in the making... and I would guess by the second answer it's the new guy.

14.1 - You're finished with what is troublesome.

14.2 - You're moving on... and in the right direction. One sentence in Brad Hatcher's commentary of his translation of the line (which is available for download at http://hermetica.info, Section C) says, "This is like rubbing the belly of luck."

14.3 - Unless I misunderstood, you've basically said that, because of the synchronicity of this man entering your life when he did, you've recently accepted you're not in this alone... there's something out there beside you. This is about offering thanks to that something. Brad says, "In theory such offerings are not made to get more in return, but to work on your worthiness, to express your gratitude, to offer up trust that good will come back around and to
practice the sun?s way with wealth."

And when the Yi talks to me about hexagram 35 they are talking about partnership. It may be a business partnership, a mentor/protege relationship, husband and wife, master and slave... whatever. It's about two people with complementary strenghts and weaknesses working together in an atmosphere of mutual respect. It takes two. The pictograph is of two arrows flying together... toward the sun. Wilhelm/Baynes says: "An enlightened ruler and an obedient servant--this is the condition on which great progress depends." Of course, it doesn't have to be a ruler and a servant as I mentioned above... it's about complements, whatever they may be.

And 13.1.4 to 53 is about a friendship that grows slowly and gradually. *sigh*

Line 1 is what it is. It's about starting out. I very much like Brad's commentary on this line.

Line 4 indicates that some conflict may arise in the relationship that is overcome when one knows one cannot fight. It may be him. It may be you. One of you feels a need for self-defense and then realizes there's nothing to defend against... there's no enemy here. Not to worry about it. Just stay receptive to it, recognize it and stay calm.

And then, of course, 53 is gradual progress. Ironically, this could either be a turning point OR the act of returning to yourself and to the world of friends and new friendships and to love.

It's all good Clarissa. It's your time now. And with this reading, I'm very happy for you.

Love,

Val
 

clarissa

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Hi Val,

You know, I didn't sleep well last night because I was thinking too much of these last readings! Next time I'll ask in the morning
happy.gif
Thank you very much for your comments.

You said, "And 13.1.4 to 53 is about a friendship that grows slowly and gradually. *sigh*"

I really had to chuckle when I read this because that fits the situation perfectly. Given the circumstances this is not something that would even have a chance of happening overnight. Add to that the fact that he's also the cautious type and what do you have? Slow development.

You also said, "Line 4 indicates that some conflict may arise in the relationship that is overcome when one knows one cannot fight. It may be him. It may be you. One of you feels a need for self-defense and then realizes there's nothing to defend against... there's no enemy here."

I think he's the one feeling a bit frightened...and for a very good reason which I won't go into I might add. Very interesting indeed.

Clarissa
 

clarissa

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Hi Val (again),

By the way...

What do you make of the 62 here?

"What should my attitude toward X be?"
Answer: 53.4.5.6 -> 62

I know it means something like keeping a low profile. Would that be the overall view of the situation? If so, it would seem to fit...since there's really nothing more for me to do at this point accept wait...and waiting IS pretty low-profile.

Clarissa
 

clarissa

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OK....finally I just asked it straight up:

"Tell me about my future together with X?"
Answer: 64

...which seems to match up once again with the other responses and if I'm understanding it correctly...it indicates that the movement is toward something positive..but that it takes time. We're not there yet. Wilhelm says in his commentary,

"...this hexagram presents a parallel to spring, which leads out of winter's stagnation into the
fruitful time of summer."

However, it also seems to indicate that this is a delicate time and that caution is advised if one is to have success. Don't rush over the ice like the young fox and get your tail wet. Do you agree?
 

wu_000

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There is a famous line in the I Ching.

?Don?t push it?

At one time or another we all get excited by our link with the I Ching.

And at one time or another we become excited like toddlers and then babble.

Naturally, we have learned speech for the first time. It is so good.

The I Ching is not a manual of what to do. Not a manual to get an edge on the change happening around us.

It?s subtitle is, ?The book of Wisdom.?

It talks to us so as to teach us wisdom.

The way to be in time with our changes.

You have been talking to an informed soul on this thread. Have you heard her words?

Why ask more questions?

I respectfully suggest you start listening more closely to you readings.

Ask less.

Listen to each reading more deeply.

Learn what it teaches you about you.

Not about what you will get.

This is not about your gain.

It is about you growing.

This is not an aggressive post. We have all been there.

Your readings are good. Learn from them and enjoy a full life.

Wu
 

cal val

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Hi Clarissa...

First let me respond to this question, Clarissa, in a way that I hope you'll understand:

<blockquote>"What should my attitude toward X be?"</blockquote>
I have seen this question many times before on this forum, and each time I have been baffled by it. It's a question I can't comprehend, and I hope you and others here will help me to understand it. I see it repeated here so often, it's clearly one that many people consider. It's one, however, I can't remember ever considering myself.

I have been pondering this since you posted it. I went to bed last night pondering and decided to look the word 'attitude' up on dictionary.com today. I've cut and paste the part of the definition that is most pertinent to your question... other definitions are about airplanes.

A position of the body or manner of carrying oneself: stood in a graceful attitude. See Synonyms at posture.

1. A state of mind or a feeling; disposition: had a positive attitude about work.


And still I have a problem with this question... because to me, it's never been a question. I am what I am. I feel what I feel. I think what I think. And if anybody has a problem with it... well then HE has a problem with it... I don't. If he lets who I am bother him, then he's simply not meant to be with me... and that's the end of it.

I cannot adopt an attitude that does not come naturally... that requires any effort. I can't. I don't want to, and I don't know how. But apparently others can, and this is something that I am highly curious about... something I want to learn about.

I don't want you to misunderstand me. I can be sensitive to and adapt to other people's moods. If I walk into someone's office, and I sense he is in a sad or angry mood for instance, I can be empathetic and supportive and validate his feelings and save my jokes or good news or whatever until later. My attitude doesn't change, though. If I'm happy, contented or peaceful, I stay happy, contented or peaceful... quietly.

Frankly, Clarissa... considering all I've read that you've said in this forum... besides the Yi's urgency that you be receptive to and sustain this new friendship, that you have had such a dynamic precognitive experience just prior to meeting this man... I get that you have not a thing to worry about. This is it. It's all good.

I do, however, have a recommendation, since you appear to be anxious about your future with this man, to help you achieve and maintain the most effective communication with him... and that is, if you haven't already, read a couple of John Grey's books. They're wonderful! They work! Since you're not even at the dating stage yet, I'd first recommend Mars and Venus on a Date: A Guide for Navigating the 5 Stages of Dating to Create a Loving and Lasting Relationship... as soon as possible. Then read Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus. I truly believe you won't feel anxious at all any more after you read them.

I'd also like to address something Wu said that I feel is very important and have intimated in one of my previous posts: It is about you growing. The Yi is all for personal growth and will help you if you let them. For me, growth is a life long pursuit. I'm 56 years old and still growing. The day I feel like I have no more growing to do is probably going to be the day I die.

I understand you've gotten yourself out of this unhappy relationship and that's wonderful. I celebrate you! But do you know how you got yourself into it and how it became so unhappy? It takes two. He had his part in it, and you had your part. That's how it is in every relationship. This break between relationships is an opportune time for you to explore YOUR part... yourself... and grow from your experience. The John Grey books may be a great resource for doing just that. Listening to the Yi... being receptive... not just to your new friend, but to the Yi and your dreams... is very important now as well.

In the meantime I apologize, but I am having a difficult time interpreting the answer to your last question. I've looked at your changing lines and hexagrams, and I can't see that the Yi answered the question, but that doesn't mean it didn't. As I've said, I don't understand the question. However, others here who do understand the question may be able to interpret it for you. And when they do, I hope to learn something myself as well.

Love,

Val

PS... This post script is about two hours after I started this post. I stopped because a young man I work with came in and wanted to talk about his relationship with his girlfriend. It's strained right now because she's moved back to Utah. He's scared of losing her forever, and he's in pain. He just sat here for about two hours talking to me about it. Now how's this for a bit of synchronicity. In an effort to mend the relationship, he just read "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" this week and loved it. I got very excited, told him I loved it and cried when I read it. He said he cried too.
 

clarissa

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Hi Wu...

Yes, I agree with you. I was thinking last night about how I have received my answer(s)...what I wanted to know...and that I should now leave it at that...and go ponder on what it all means. It was certainly an amazing experience.

Thank you,
Clarissa
 

clarissa

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Hi Val,

Thank you for your kind words. You're right that I'm anxious
happy.gif
I guess that was pretty obvious. As I went through some of the other threads....I could see that same frantic asking coming from other people as well regarding these sorts of questions. I guess it just goes with the territory...the nature of the query, the nature of the answerer etc. As I was telling Wu....I thought about it last night and did decided that I had received my answers..and that I shouldn't keep "bothering" the Yi with it
happy.gif


About my last relationship...

Yes, I've been thinking a lot about why I got into it. It was out of necessity..but then I had to think about why I got myself into that position of need in the first place. In fact, I was just telling a friend last night that I must not think very highly of myself if I could allow myself to be swept along and eventually land where I did.

About the book...

I've read "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus"...but this was a long time ago. I remember that I found it extremely insightful. I guess it's time to read it again..and check out the other one.

Clarissa
 
D

dharma

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<blockquote>I have seen this question many times before on this forum, and each time I have been baffled by it. It's a question I can't comprehend, and I hope you and others here will help me to understand it. I see it repeated here so often, it's clearly one that many people consider. It's one, however, I can't remember ever considering myself.</blockquote>

Val..
I understand where you're coming from - I don't think that your confusion stems from a lack of understanding the intent but rather that you are beyond this intent. You, having reached a place in your life where you are happy and at peace with yourself most of the time, are not focused on self-worth for the most part. Those who may not have attained a thorough trust in themselves will, from time to time, second guess their "right" to be themselves. In other words, they may believe it necessary and be tempted into "changing" themselves in order to get that which they are after. However, one does not change themselves, one just is, and any changes produced thusly are eventually discovered to be just a means to an end. Hopefully, we all eventually discover that being true to ourselves doesn't involve this kind of manipulation. But before we can get to that understanding, when we don't yet trust that who we are right now is enough, we need to have certain experiences with putting up fronts in our relationships because that is what we believe we need to do to succeed.

Though I realize that this may not be exactly the case for everyone who poses questions such as these, it certainly could be - something to think about.. just my pennies worth..
 

hilary

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I think that in the sort of situation Clarissa describes, 'What attitude should I take?' can be the best way of asking, 'should I be hoping? waiting patiently? acting on my feelings? giving up and letting go?' In other words, 'What would be a realistic attitude to take?'

That is, it's one way to approach 'What's our future?' (Hexagram 64 in response to that is Yi's succinct way of saying 'You haven't decided that yet.')

Also, I don't see anything wrong with asking what would be the best 'posture' to adopt when dealing with someone. It helps no end in negotiating tricky relationships. Like Val said, you can change your approach without changing your inner state.

But I find that 'what attitude to take?' can be a very useful question. I had occasion to ask it a week or so back when a very dear friend got angry with me. I wanted to dismiss this as entirely his problem, something that said a whole lot about him and nothing about me, and would probably blow over anyway. I also wanted Yi to confirm that this was a good attitude. (Reading between the lines here, you can probably guess that at some level I felt it wasn't - hence the question.)

Yi gave me 12 changing at lines 4 and 6 to 8. I changed my attitude and 'got the message' he was sending me. Maybe I could have found the gumption to do so without the kick from Yi - maybe not. Anyway, it was a powerful reading for me.
 

cal val

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Hilary...

Thank you so much for answering my cry for help. I've pondered this question before, and I pondered it a long time before I finally posted yesterday... confessing my ignorance. I knew it was a valid question because so many have asked it, and I knew it was more than simply semantics getting in my way because I can work around semantics. It was pure ignorance from lack of experience.

Your post shed a good deal of light on the mystery for me, and I appreciate very much your taking the time to answer. I look forward to seeing others' thoughts on the subject as well.

Love,

Val
 

cal val

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Hi Clarissa...

Well I guess nothing gets by you does it? LOL... because you're so right... we all have that anxiety. I know this particular variety of anxiety up close and personal myself... that's why I recognize it. It goes hand in hand with tittering like a school girl... *grin*

Love,

Val
 

dobro p

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12.4.6>8

Communication's blocked, and then there's union.

I like those high hex 12 lines, don't you?
 

cal val

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Demitra...

Thank you so much for your post. When I was pondering this question, I tried to think back to how I felt on first dates with new guys... and I couldn't remember ever wondering what attitude to wear... what clothes to wear YES! How to wear my hair YES! I had a plethora of insecurities and anxieties about my body and my looks, but I can't ever remember worrying about my attitude.

And in my youth I wasn't secure with my self like I am now, and I allowed men I fell in love to treat me with less respect than I deserve... (momentarily anyway). It took me until my 30s to see what I was doing to myself and still it was difficult to stop until after my walk through the fire in my 40s.

But still through all that my attitude wasn't ever a question... it was what it was. And as soon as a man tried to mold me into what I wasn't and/or didn't want to be, that was the end. All he ever saw of me again was my dust. And there were times I had a bad attitude and was told to change it... and still changing it wasn't an option... it changed by itself eventually... and then it was still what it was.

Love,

Val
 
D

dharma

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In this way I am more like Val than not. My attitude hasn't been a point of focus for me as it often is for others around me who feel it to be their duty to focus on it for me.
happy.gif


(Apparently there's this whole other manuel of appropriate behaviour that differs from who-I-am that someone forgot to give me
wink.gif
)


Anyway.. I guess it all depends on the way one's whole life story has played out on the whole. I'm basically one of those people that had to learn to be myself instead of who everyone else wanted me to be, and so that type of question has always been a type of taboo no-no for me.

Of course, I do question my approach in certain matters at certain times, but it seems to me that that may be different somehow from what you (Hilary) are talking about. But then again.. perhaps this a case of tomatoe and tomato ? perhaps..

I did however appreciate the clear explanation for what a question like this means to you, and in the process what it might mean to others as well - which makes me curious to try it out for myself sometime and see if maybe the no-no taboo can change form and be useful to me.<center>
bounce.gif
</center>
 

gypsy

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I think attitude is somewhat different from approach. A new approach results from a change in attitude, from an "attitude adjustment."

Example: My professor did not like my thesis proposal. My initial attitude was one of frustration and a little resentment. I made a conscious attitude-adjustment by deciding to suspend my resentment. In my new disposition/state of mind, I was able to see that another proposal was actually better. I then changed my approach and not only met with approval and support from the prof, but was delighted with my new ideas. (I might also have decided to defend my proposal, but again, the attitude adjustment was the first pre-requisite)

The ability to consciously choose one's attitude in any situation is a great gift and also a great discovery.

Some people may have already cultivated the habit of consistently choosing a positive attitude, without even realizing they have done this. For others, just the knowledge that we CAN choose our attitude becomes a tool for self-transformation, and a very important one! Asking the I Ching about the most helpful attitude to take in a given situation is one of my favorite approaches to the oracle.

It isnt always so cut and dry either. Obviously resentment is not a helpful state of mind. But sometimes we don't know whether to assume an attitude of flexibility or one of standing firm. An attitude of "wait-and-see, it isn't over yet" is different from an attitude of "do it now or regret it." The I Ching can help you decide which mind-set is most appropriate to the situation. It nudges your intuition.
 

clarissa

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Hilary wrote:
"I think that in the sort of situation Clarissa describes, 'What attitude should I take?' can be the best way of asking, 'should I be hoping? waiting patiently? acting on my feelings? giving up and letting go?' In other words, 'What would be a realistic attitude to take?'

That is, it's one way to approach 'What's our future?' (Hexagram 64 in response to that is Yi's succinct way of saying 'You haven't decided that yet.')"

That's it. I was really asking about the future...and I eventually did ask it straight up and got 64.

On that 64 note...(and since I'm not asking any more questions..but rather, pondering on those I've received)

After I thought about it..I found 64 in response to my question kind of funny actually. I asked about the future and it responded with something like....well, it hasn't happened yet. Was this the Oracle's way of telling me to buzz off?
happy.gif
 

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