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frank_r

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A question what I'm asking myself already a long time is, what is Consciousness?

Some thing you become aware of others you don't. To see, feel, taste something, has a lot to do with your state of mind.

So yesterday I asked the Yi, and because it's already a long time that I wanted to ask this question I did this with the yarrow stick oracle. I also wanted to do that for a long time, because I never did that before. So I went into the garden and made a bunch of little sticks. It's a long ritual but interesting to do.

My answer from the Yi was 12 with changing lines on 4 and 5 - 23.
For me this are 2 in a way negative hexagrams, so I was surprised with this answer.

Speaking of synchronicity, I just saw there was also another discussing about consciousness.

What do you think the Yi is trying to tell me?
 
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lightofreason

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frank_r said:
My answer from the Yi was 12 with changing lines on 4 and 5 - 23.
For me this are 2 in a way negative hexagrams, so I was surprised with this answer.

Speaking of synchronicity, I just saw there was also another discussing about consciousness.

What do you think the Yi is trying to tell me?
Your perspective on 12 and 23 is IMHO biased - you are not considering context where IT determines the positive/negative interpretations. So... what is the context in asking the question? Are you upset or just 'down' in some way?

Your question covers with/from neutralising comes pruning.

Since consciousness covers mediation so the above is acceptable - but then the WHOLE of the I Ching applies, consciousness is ALL of it, and local context will then sort the hexagrams into best-fit/worst-fit order.

Chris.
 
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bruce_g

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I don’t think the question can be answered in the way you hope to understand it; meaning to say, you can’t hold that answer in your hand or have some final explanation of ‘what is consciousness’. It’s too far reaching to have a tangible answer. But, if you reflect on your own consciousness you can project that outwardly to pertain to consciousness in the general sense. You are aware? The Universe is also aware. Your awareness is limited. Universal consciousness is unlimited. You are separate (12). The Universe is whole. You would have to lose (23) your separateness to grasp the whole. Is that possible? I don’t know.
 

frank_r

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lightofreason said:
So... what is the context in asking the question? Are you upset or just 'down' in some way?

Chris.
Thanks for asking Chris, no I don't feel upset or down.

I was asking this question because I wonder what makes the difference between us people. Sometimes I see the negative side of something, and sometimes the positive. And for somebody else it can be the oposite at the same moment. But for me real consiousness goes beyond that, it is what it is. The naked thruth.

bruce_g said:
You are aware? The Universe is also aware. Your awareness is limited. Universal consciousness is unlimited. You are separate (12). The Universe is whole. You would have to lose (23) your separateness to grasp the whole. Is that possible? I don’t know..
I also don't know if that's possible. But where do we stand as a individual?
 
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bruce_g

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frank_r said:
I also don't know if that's possible. But where do we stand as a individual?
I don't know how to answer this. I think therefore I think I am. I perceive therefore I perceive that I must be.

Subjectively, individually, everything runs through our filters. But that doesn't explain consciousness. For me, subjectively, consciousness is what I experience. But I wouldn't call that pure consciousness. It's a processed version or experience of consciousness. But it's what I have to work with in this moment.

How do you explain what you experience right now in this second? For me, the lights are on, I'm sitting at a computer, typing. My fingers are moving, my eyes are receiving and filtering light. That's all subjective experience of consciousness, but it's consciousness nonetheless.

In a word, I'd call consciousness "awake". And when sleeping, consciousness dims but doesn't go out.

I don't think your question can be answered in a way which would satisfy you, and I think Yi's answer reflects that.
 
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lightofreason

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frank_r said:
I was asking this question because I wonder what makes the difference between us people. Sometimes I see the negative side of something, and sometimes the positive. And for somebody else it can be the oposite at the same moment. But for me real consiousness goes beyond that, it is what it is. The naked thruth.
For consciousness as an agent of mediation see Libet's book "Mind Time : The Temporal Factor in Consciousness" HUP

to describe "Consciousness" - its full expression - read all of the hexagrams in the IC in binary sequence order ;-) ... and then recognise that the same categories describe personalities and so styles of thinking - so it all gets rather 'big'! ;-)

At any moment you are in one of those states (and so reflecting their spectrums as well)

Our species nature maps to the dichotomy of particular/general and we as individuals do not exist, we exist as collective specialists (warriors, drones, workers, alpha females/males etc etc)

When we are born our sense of SELF starts to develop and is operational and learning from age 2 or so -- this is our unique nature and so the source of innovation as it is the source of psychosis!

This nature is the manifestation of Darwin's "mutatation" and allows for 'novel' choices of behaviour WITHIN our genetically-determined particulars... and so the many interpretations of hexagrams but still within the general nature of a hexagram.

The focus in the singular is on mediation of self with others and so the connection with the miraculous/random ;-) - being unique it is 'beyond compare' and so outside of traditional Science perspectives - the only 'Science' of concern is that of freedom - and so a focus on morality/ethics (a common theme in the IC ;-))

Chris.
 

martin

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12 to 23 makes sense to me Frank.
I assume 23 reflects your question. You are asking about the line 6 level, pure consciousness, spirit.
The answer is 12 and perhaps this is more an instruction than a direct answer.
'Be still and know Me'?
 

martin

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Or as a direct answer: pure consciousness is what remains when everything else comes to a halt.
 

dobro p

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Yes. But I'd tweak it: consciousness is what remains when you still thoughts, emotions, sensations and movement.
 

frank_r

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I thought about some of the replies today, Chris you are saying that all the hexagram fit to consiousness it only depends on the context. And you read the answer more as a state of my mind, not as a answer to my question(You were even thinking I was depressed?)

And in a way Bruce is saying the same, first by saying that you think that the answer is not satisfaying to me, later when you say "pure consiousness is". ( here you meet Chris again).
But I only was wondering in what way the Yi was answering, so in that way I'm always satisfied with whatever answer I get from the Yi. But I was surprised because it came from a corner I didn't expect that it should come from. It really shook me awake!

On the level of spirit(the 6 line as in 23, Yes Martin!)on the level of the heart, the void I agree you can't say anything, than the whole Yi is possible.

But that's for me also the reason to work with the Yi, that it can put the finger on the spot which is asking for attention.

So I looked into my acupuncture notes which energies had to do with consciousness.
The first I found was also the heart, the void, but second the spleen- Intention- thought- Idea.
So there is also a awarness on earth, (being knocked down and unciousness, being from the earth, but still on earth).

I also looked in the Chinese dictionary what they saw as conciousness: 知覺
知 = zhī = to know, to be aware
覺 = jiào =a nap, a sleep. jué = feel; find that; thinking; awake; aware.
 

mrmorrow

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Frank------ i see your question as being trapped in time. we move forward through lines four and five of twelve as we manipulate the solid world we experience through the subatomic particles of quantom theory.Maybe some form of atom splitting talkes place hence 23.Or consiousness is in fact the experience of time itself.I hope this helps a little.
 
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lightofreason

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frank_r said:
I thought about some of the replies today, Chris you are saying that all the hexagram fit to consiousness it only depends on the context.
The set of all hexagrams reflect the aggregation of states of consciousness - as do all trigrams and all dodecagrams! It depends on the scale used to analyse/represent things.

Given understandings of our brain working unconsciously, the size of the whole we deal with consciously is but a part of what our unconscious deals with (see comments/references in:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/wavedicho.html )

THe WHOLE of the I Ching is a filter for any moment and as such ALL hexagrams apply to the moment BUT the local context will sort the hexagrams into an order from best fit to worst fit; this includes states of consciousness.

EACH hexagam can represent a state of consciousness not only that is local but that is favoured for life (and so the nature of personality 'type') and serves as the preferred filter for interpreting reality (and so that includes the I Ching)

WHen we review the neurology and associated development of consciousness as SELF, the development shows us consciousness as an agent of mediation and once the mediation is completed (we have formed representations) so it can disappear and we live off auto-pilot; the process favours developing of 'good habits' that allow us to operate smoothly in any context where context pushes us (this being a way to conserve energy in a thermodynamic universe)

Chris.
 
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lightofreason

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frank - consider this:

"During the projection of a three-dimensional structure onto a two-dimensional plane, information is lost, and it is therefore necessary to collect a plurality of projections at different angles in order to reconstruct the original structure"

The IC is presented symbolically on a two-dimensional plane such that each hexagram represents a different angle on the three-dimensional form that allows us to reconstruct that form in our minds - and so the 'whole' of consciousness.

Chris.
 

martin

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I have never seen a classification system that captures all possible 'angles' and the IC is no exception.
It seems that every system, however rich and however complete it appears to be, represents itself only one (meta)angle.
To come close to the fullness of 3D reality you have to look through many 'eyes'.

For another 'eye' - I like the classification of states that John Lilly presents in his 'The Center of the Cyclone'.
Here is an overview.
 

martin

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Hmm, thinking ... I'm not entirily happy with my statement that the IC does not capture all possible angles. Because perhaps it does. Chris is convinced that is does (because it's all hardcoded in the brain, etcetera) and I think that many others also feel, for different reasons, that the IC is 'complete' somehow. A map of all there is.

Okay, maybe, but the thing is, and I guess that is what I wanted to say, if I ALWAYS look through the 'eye' of the classical IC, or IC+, I still limit myself. If I always look through the eye of - for instance - Marx I also limit myself.
Now you can say, yes, but Marx doesn't cover all there is and the IC(+) does. But that doesn't really matter, does it? The IC(+) view is still only one eye and I will see more and come closer to 3D reality if I also look through other eyes.

Well, this is as clear as I can get it at the moment, I think I need a beer. :)
 
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lightofreason

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IDM covers all of the angles - but its focus is at the level of the species and so is 'vague' in that covering; it is like the parafovea of the eye, good at pattern matching, edge detection.

LOCAL context (and so akin to the fovea of the eye) fleshes out the details but due to our specialist perspectives none cover all there is in detail! (consciousness limited to what it can deal with at any one time) - the movement from the universals to the local does not 'add' any more universals, it adds colouring, finer details but with local biases that can exaggerate, marginalise, or even exclude the expression of the full set of universals.

What IDM allows us to do is look at a particular expression and note what it appears to leave out (e.g. it may exaggerate 'yang' and so marginalise 'yin' etc) and so try and identify that area (XOR allows us to do this - to flesh out those 'emotions' not used in some local context - the ability to make analogies to other specialisations allow us to use one specialisation to flesh out hidden details in another)

Chris.
 

frank_r

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Hello Martin, interesting side you gave, I saw that under the "Green Qutab" there is also something about Laleh Baktihar - who wrote the book the precence of God. In this book he writes about the ennegrams that there are 64 different types. From there I was inspired to make the connection to the Yi. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=315

Chris, thanks for giving the inside to 3D from a 2D perspective. I understand what you are getting at.

mrmorrow said:
Frank------ i see your question as being trapped in time. .Maybe some form of atom splitting talkes place hence 23.Or consiousness is in fact the experience of time itself.
And Mrmorrow I suddenly thought about a article I once wrote about time and the heart.
it's about time and the spirit/heart-6 line.
;http://www.frankroosen.com/The time spirit.doc

So now I'm a lille bit more aware what conciousness can be.
 

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