...life can be translucent

Menu

Decent I Ching translations with NON-HIPPIE-DIPPIE-NEW-AGE commentary???

anarchophila

New member
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
Are there any good books on the I Ching that have quality (not hippie dippie New Age (apologize if that's your thing)) explanatory notes? I have about 4-5 copies of the I Ching (one with commentary by Wang Bi that's not all that helpful) and they all leave me a little wanting. We're so divorced from the China of thousands of years ago that I think some recent scholarship would really inspire me with better readings. I know that I should just let it speak to me but with such varying translations I'd like to have a firmer grasp on some of the more elusive concepts that should transcend all translations.

Appreciate any suggestions. :bows:

-anarchophila
 

bradford

Senior member
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,600
Reaction score
28
Are there any good books on the I Ching that have quality (not hippie dippie New Age (apologize if that's your thing)) explanatory notes? I know that I should just let it speak to me but with such varying translations I'd like to have a firmer grasp on some of the more elusive concepts that should transcend all translations.
Appreciate any suggestions. :bows: -anarchophila
That's a lot to ask for, those "explanatory notes". One must think one understands before one explains, and that's a bad sign. I finally gave up trying to do them at all, except for a couple of dozen footnotes to clear up points of translation, and just decided instead to expand on and play around with the metaphors. You might try a look at my bibliography - it has what I think are the best versions highlighted. And Steve Marshall's site has a lot of reviews posted. Then there's the giant bibliography by Hacker, Patsco and Moore. Maybe Jack Balkin's version?
 
L

lightofreason

Guest
...We're so divorced from the China of thousands of years ago that I think some recent scholarship would really inspire me with better readings. I know that I should just let it speak to me but with such varying translations I'd like to have a firmer grasp on some of the more elusive concepts that should transcend all translations.

Appreciate any suggestions. :bows:

-anarchophila

The IC+ material focuses on the generation of the IC from the dynamics of the neurology and so is representative of the patterns generated from those dynamics.

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/newindex.html (OR if you use IE browser, http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/IChingPlus )

As such the focus is on bringing the IC into the 21st century AD rather than languishing in the 10th century BC - Included in the IC+ perspective is the ability, due to self-referencing, for any I Ching hexagram to describe itself through the use of making analogies to all of the other hexagrams:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introXOR.html (an elusive aspect NOT covered in any of the material mentioned by Bradford since they had no idea what they were dealing with. SO - if you seek traditional perspectives then go through Bradford et al and experience 10th century BC thinking ;-) - if you seek more modern, up-to-date perspectives on meaning in general and in the IC in particular then go through the XOR experience - as well as the Emotional I Ching experience (not 'new age', based on brain dynamics in the derivation of meaning:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/icplusEProact.html )

The IC+ material is sourced in mapping how our brains derive meaning through analogy/metaphor where the model of such is summarised at:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introIDM.html

Chris.
 
Last edited:

lindsay

Senior member
Joined
Aug 19, 1970
Messages
617
Reaction score
0
I've been thinking about Anarchophilia's post. I think I know what A. is talking about as far as "hippie-dippie" goes - but the astonishing thing is I couldn't think of any translations of the Yi or even commentaries that I would label "hippie-dippie." The I Ching stereotype does associate the Yi with the hippie movement and with facile New Age writers -- but in my experience, people who are seriously interested in the Yi tend to be a rather hard-headed and thoughtful bunch. Can anyone out there think of a published translation or commentary which is "hippie-dippie"? Surely even Carol Anthony doesn't fall into that category. Can you think of 4-5, as A. suggests? I wonder what A.'s criteria are for "hippie-dippie-ness"?
 

sparhawk

Senior member
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,060
Reaction score
3
I once read somewhere that Eskimo (Inuit) women would chew on raw seal leather as a way of tanning it and make it malleable and thus able to use it for their clothes, etc. After years of chewing on the leather they would lose their teeth and thus, the elderly women are not able to chew their own food anymore. Unable to feed for themselves, the elderly women are fed by the younger women who would chew their food for them and would pass it to the old and then they would swallow it...

Well, I don't think anybody here is THAT elderly or toothless and unable to feed for themselves. Read as much as you can and separate the grain from the chaff-- which is a very subjective task, mind you. The term "hippie-dippie", as applied to the Yi is, IMO, uncalled for. I suggest anyone that approaches the Yi thinking it was a creation of the foggy 60's, to stay away from it. The darn thing has been around for a few millenniums and has enough "serious" bibliography to fill whole libraries. Make it part of your "search" to find the ones that resonate with you.

No digestion for third parties here... :D (eeewww! :eek:)


Luis
 
Last edited:
B

bruce_g

Guest
Having once been a bonafide dippy hippy, I have a comment or two on this.

To me, a hippy dippy Yijingster is one who sees the Yi as something established and finished, and this from perceptions and applications formed somewhere in the past. For example, I know someone who takes absolute stands on what this hex or line means, because that's what it meant to him back when he was a hippy. It's becomes institutional and therefore un-living.

The second position of a hippy dippy Yingster is that these principles exist not as realities but only in the form of lofty ideas; much as LiSe expressed today, on another thread, regarding the shortcoming of philosophy.
 

lindsay

Senior member
Joined
Aug 19, 1970
Messages
617
Reaction score
0
Bruce, you never stop surprising me! I always think of "hippie-dippie" the same way I think of "loosey-goosey" - that is, lots of vague, fuzzy, feel-good talk that more or less accommodates everybody and everything. Cheech and Chong. Everything's cool, everything's mellow, whatever.

So, when you identified "hippie-dippie" as applying to someone having rigid and dogmatic views about the Yi, I almost dropped my bong and set fire to my tie-dyed bell-bottoms. Man, where is your head at? I just can't grok what you're saying, man. I never thought of hippies as people who take absolute positions. Man, where's the 'go-with-the-flow' thing?

Anyway, I'd like to hear more. I was into the Yi in the 60's, but not as a hippie. Maybe I've had it wrong all these years.

Lindsay
 
B

bruce_g

Guest
laughin…

Well, as you’ve said: “in my experience, people who are seriously interested in the Yi tend to be a rather hard-headed and thoughtful bunch.” The hippies I hung out with were very intelligent, thoughtful and well grounded individuals, and especially the one individual I referred to earlier, which was the only friend I had at the time who showed real interest in the Yi. Sure, there were stoned out rap sessions, which went in circles, but this was just searching for meaning. This was the time of Castaneda’s frolicking too, and there was great interest in all that, especially so with my friend and myself. But I don’t consider that as being hippy dippy or New Age.

Oh, there were the grok-ers (funny, hadn’t heard that term in ages!), the go-with-the-flow-all-is-groovy-hippies, too, just as there are now. New Age philosophy, i.e. crystal healing, a mishmash of ancient and modern spiritualism etc. came later, or at least segued from the hippie movement into New Age thinking. The rest became materialist yuppies, getting their own piece of the pie.

So, it isn’t simply dogmatism I was referring to, but modern day individuals whose ideas of the Yi are still fixed in their past. To me, that defines today’s hippie dippy Yijingster.
 

bradford

Senior member
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,600
Reaction score
28
Can anyone out there think of a published translation or commentary which is "hippie-dippie"?
I have 1 1/2 apple boxes full of them. About 3/4 of the books n my "C List" in the back of my bibliography are mostly indiscriminate, rambling thought with little-to-no cogency.
 

bradford

Senior member
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,600
Reaction score
28
Brad, I'm curious, why do you keep them?
Cuz ya just never know.

For while I only refused to own the two most ridiculous of them, books by
Joseph Murphy and Diane Stein, but even those are in my collection now.
I dunno. Where collections are concerned, does size matter?
I guess I keep them in case something is called to my attention, or in case
someone asks a question about them, or in case, horror of horrors, I find
I've made a mistake somewhere. That still happens and I have to start taking
notes all over again for particular lines.
 
B

bruce_g

Guest
I'm the opposite of a collector, nothing stays which isn't currently used. Used to drive my ex nuts, but then she was a pack rat. I drew the line when she stored boxes of old books in my fishin' workbench shelves. That just ain't right.
 

lindsay

Senior member
Joined
Aug 19, 1970
Messages
617
Reaction score
0
A few minutes ago I was looking at Bradford's "Bibliography," especially his "C-List", to see what books were banished to the outer circle. Many of them I've seen or own, and yes, some of them are indisputably "hippie-dippie." The proportions differ. Some are hippier than dippie, others are more dippie than hippie. A few happen to be favorites of mine. All in all, Brad's "C-List" seems like a reliable field guide to exceptional mediocrity and profound superficiality.

But I noticed something else. Looking at Brad's "Bibliography," I would estimate at least two-thirds - maybe even three-fourths - of all English-language books about the Yi were published between 1970 and 2000. After 2000, there has been a noticeable drop in the number of new books, seemingly fewer with every passing year.

How do you account for that? Well, the baby-boom generation had an interest in Asian philosophy and religion that has not been shared by any generation since. As for the drop in new work about the Yi, you might argue the internet has co-opted traditional print media - but in fact there have also been fewer new I Ching sites in the past few years than appeared around the turn of the century. It is more likely the resurgence of traditional religions and a new sense of external cultural threat has turned Westerners back to their own native traditions.

Observing trends in book publishing and the internet, it is hard to escape the conclusion that interest in the Yi is diminishing, not growing. The 1990's may well have been the high-water mark, the Golden Age of I Ching studies. No doubt interest in the Yi will revive at some point in the future, but trends like this probably follow fairly long cycles.

It's not too late to jump ship and join up with Wicca.
 
B

bruce_g

Guest
It is more likely the resurgence of traditional religions and a new sense of external cultural threat has turned Westerners back to their own native traditions.
My guess is that apathy reigns supreme, as materialism enjoys the same sort of renaissance as in the '50's, except that now everything is bought on credit, except for the $5 lattes... sometimes.
 

bradford

Senior member
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,600
Reaction score
28
But I noticed something else. Looking at Brad's "Bibliography," I would estimate at least two-thirds - maybe even three-fourths - of all English-language books about the Yi were published between 1970 and 2000. After 2000, there has been a noticeable drop in the number of new books, seemingly fewer with every passing year.
I wouldn't go by that. I stopped fanatically collecting new books about the time I "finished" mine (always gotta say finished in quotes or the book will bite you). New ones are still coming out - see Amazon. But the new ones didn't influence what I'd already written so they didn't go into the bibliography.
 

sparhawk

Senior member
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,060
Reaction score
3
Bruce, you never stop surprising me! I always think of "hippie-dippie" the same way I think of "loosey-goosey" - that is, lots of vague, fuzzy, feel-good talk that more or less accommodates everybody and everything. Cheech and Chong. Everything's cool, everything's mellow, whatever.
Ahem!! (cough! cough!) :rofl:
 

sparhawk

Senior member
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,060
Reaction score
3
Brad, I'm curious, why do you keep them?
Not sure about Brad, but I keep everything that talks about little broken and whole lines, even though a good number of them ain't good enough to start my BBQ. :D

Call me anal... :rofl:

L
 

sparhawk

Senior member
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,060
Reaction score
3
nothing stays which isn't currently used. Used to drive my ex nuts,
Hmmm, if I was reading that as a line from the Yi... Yeah, I think I see the connection. :D

L
 

heylise

Senior member
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 15, 1970
Messages
3,079
Reaction score
3
What's the green light next to my name?? Does it mean I am online? Umm, I am. Hi Luis, you online too?
LiSe
 

sparhawk

Senior member
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,060
Reaction score
3
Yup, that's what it means. Somebody has to keep an eye on this place... :D
 
B

bruce_g

Guest
Hmmm, if I was reading that as a line from the Yi... Yeah, I think I see the connection. :D

L
Wow, that took me awhile to get. Will withhold comment, though this is usually where a guy jumps up and down, pounding his manly chest. Let's just say, I know what's up. Oops, there I go, doing ape dance.

:hissy: AaaaaAaAaaaaAaAaaaaaaaa!!!!!
 

sparhawk

Senior member
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,060
Reaction score
3
Wow, that took me awhile to get. Will withhold comment, though this is usually where a guy jumps up and down, pounding his manly chest. Let's just say, I know what's up. Oops, there I go, doing ape dance.

:hissy: AaaaaAaAaaaaAaAaaaaaaaa!!!!!
LOL!
 

magictortoise

Senior member
Joined
May 26, 2007
Messages
172
Reaction score
0
Try Wilhelm-Bayne's translation or Legge. I learned in the late 60's using the Wilhelm-Baynes. It has fine commentary in the mid-section and the latter section as well.

Ken Wanamaker
 

dobro p

Senior member
Joined
May 19, 1972
Messages
3,043
Reaction score
1
I've seen lots that I thought weren't worth the price of purchase. Not worth mentioning, obviously. lol
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top