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marcusc

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Why is "desire" an "inferior" principle? I can understand detaching from the outcome to avoid disappointment and whatnot, but is the desire and the outcome one in the same? Or just an intent/generality?

I thank you now for your insights and perspectives?

Gratitude,

Marcus
 

elvis

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IT is considered such in a context of how to deal with suffering - the tie to Buddhism etc covers Sidhartha's reflections on the rich life and the poor life, the latter with greater suffering than the former. The 'removal' of desire is considered a way of resolving suffering by balancing out the highs and lows that come with desires (my highs can lead to your lows etc)

The genetic seed is in the concept of NEED and so unconditional requirements (food, shelter etc). From such, with the development of child awareness etc comes DEMAND where a dependency exists (child-parent). With further development of consciousness comes the emergence of DESIRE and the will to satisfy such.

Implicit in this is that desire cannot be removed, at best it can be immediately satisfied - as, for example, in the act of waking up from sleep and the immediate sensation is enough to satisfy you. Buddhism etc works off this perspective in reducing desires to this level and so a level of immediate satisfaction and no sensation of 'desire'.

At the other end of the scale is the push for wealth such that all desires can be met if you have the money - the problem being that not many do but many try - and so the push of capitalism ;)
 

elvis

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BTW in the I Ching the focus covering needs/desires etc is through hexagrams with the base trigram of mountain or lake - the overall ground being in the sense of PASSION (and so of suffering - some pleasing (joy/agape love etc) others not so (death, impossible loves etc) - IOW the name of the coin is passion and the two sides represented by mountain and lake.

The trigram mountain covers suffering (issues of self-restraint, being blocked etc) as it does the emergence of discernment skills from such - Buddhism etc focuses on this development of 'inner light' given 'outer' darkness.

The trigram lake covers self-reflection and the emergence of intensity in expressing such - literally or figuratively.
 

neegula

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hope i'm not misunderstanding this post, but...

i start from:
freedom is a form of discipline.
after this i can add (with some problems because of language):
balance between what is desired and what we can achieve comes from our "sense", according also to one's personal ethic.
Nature was giving us anything that can be achieve, just a matter of choice.
i don't agree, for instance, that sexuality should not be lived, that a good meal must be thrown down not for fun, but for nutrition matter. with all respect for buddha's teachings:bows:

i repeat, maybe i just got this post in the "wrong" way....
if it is like this, sorry:blush:
 

fkegan

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Hi Marcus,

Desire is generally considered an inferior principle since it arises from passion or emotion (or biochemicals in the bloodstream) rather than intellectual thought. This hierarchical thinking that the mind is higher than the body or less like other animals and thus closer to God has its own history and argument.

Desire and outcome suggest a very different line of inquiry. What we expect or desire and what we experience as outcome are usually out of sync since expectations are part of our imagination and outcomes are more about perceptions.

Overall, it would seem you have some other question ultimately in mind which isn't being clearly understood or answered so far.

Frank
 
M

meng

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I think it's more the purity of desire which determines its quality, much like with gold or jade.

Someone with no desire seems too distant to relate with, too inhuman. Someone who experiences pain can relate with my experience of pain. Someone with desire understands my desire. How awful it would be of a god to create beings that would desire god, while being a god who doesn't desire. Why, that's nothing more than loving a post.

Then, there's desiring to not desire, the effort of the ego to conquer the ego. Setting out to do this is natural (for a human), but you come to see the humor in the contradiction. No, there's no escaping that you're going to have to reckon with the whole enchilada, including desire. Why would a god give me desire unless it served his/her/its/their creative purpose? Now it's simply a question of what to do with it.
 

rodaki

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Why is "desire" an "inferior" principle? I can understand detaching from the outcome to avoid disappointment and whatnot, but is the desire and the outcome one in the same? Or just an intent/generality?

I thank you now for your insights and perspectives?

Gratitude,

Marcus
hi Marcus

I think desire is amazing, I haven't found anything more potent than that but if not taken in within a bigger picture -if you choose to see only the desire part- then desire can come back and bite you . . I think everyone can attest to that
I had very much the same question as you in thinking about hexagram 58, a lovely hexagram filled with all these warnings and preconditions, especially in the Wilhelm version . . it made me wonder why, why spoil the joy with all this strictness . . then there was discussion here on 58.5 (one of Hilary's blogposts) and that made me think how we assume that swimming in a lake is more secure than swimming at sea- since lakes have limits and all- until drunk by the feelings of joy and self-assuredness we try to stand up only to discover that the lake bed does not hold our whole existence and that lake depths go beyond what we can assume looking at their surface . .

anyway, I'm not sure if the association is clear enough, I'm just sharing thoughts here, but it looks to me that desire has to work like a lake in that respect . . this is trigram heaven that in coming to expression it needs to abide to the very actual conditions of how reality stands, hence the yin line that turns it into lake . .

in my mind, this is why both desire and lakes come with all the warnings and regulations . . have to look out for that illusion of omnipotence they might inspire . . maybe that's also why lakes need mountains, a stable footing, being receptive to bigger views . .
 

fkegan

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in my mind, this is why both desire and lakes come with all the warnings and regulations . . have to look out for that illusion of omnipotence they might inspire . . maybe that's also why lakes need mountains, a stable footing, being receptive to bigger views . .

Hi Dora,

Lakes form in valleys which are what folks call the elevation between two mountains. Similarly desire wells up within us in response to other strong feelings that we may not be aware of at all.

Desire is an inferior principle since it isn't a principle at all, rather an emotional outpouring. If you can elevate your desire to the level of an intellectual principle than it can on a par with any other principle. The desire to achieve ultimate enlightenment can be a noble calling. The thirst or desire that wells up and fills you as a lamp is filled with burning oil needs to be exhausted (nirvana in ancient Sanskrit) before anything else makes sense.

Frank
 
M

maremaria

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Reading this thread, the phrase "stay hungry ! stay foolish !" comes into my mind.
 
M

meng

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Once you're past 60, it's more like "stay horny".

Yesterday I stopped by the senior citizens center in Kingman, where I'd read there was a Thursday jam session each week. I knew it was traditional country, but I didn't know it would be pre-Hank Williams. Was a pretty big group, maybe 40. Half were on the floor dancing while the other half listened to the music from their chair. They all seemed so affectionate and peaceful, holding hands, dressed up in their cowboy and cowgirl best. There was one woman, long white hair, must have been at least 10 years my senior. Her libido was alive and well, I could tell. Her husband (or boyfriend) played merrily on his harmonica.
 

cesca

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Once you're past 60, it's more like "stay horny".

Yesterday I stopped by the senior citizens center in Kingman, where I'd read there was a Thursday jam session each week. I knew it was traditional country, but I didn't know it would be pre-Hank Williams. Was a pretty big group, maybe 40. Half were on the floor dancing while the other half listened to the music from their chair. They all seemed so affectionate and peaceful, holding hands, dressed up in their cowboy and cowgirl best. There was one woman, long white hair, must have been at least 10 years my senior. Her libido was alive and well, I could tell. Her husband (or boyfriend) played merrily on his harmonica.
I like this. There's a difference between desire, in the sense of an obsessive grasping at things/sensations/experiences, and an appetite for life.
 
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meng

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Yes, exactly. There really was something golden about what I observed there, something pure, something tested, and at the same time young and innocent.

And let's consider that the Kama Sutra is believed to have been written by an ascetic monk, and that Tantric sex is first a spiritual disciple.
 
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maremaria

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Once you're past 60, it's more like "stay horny".

.
Lol, that too !!! but its a good advice for younger people too, imo.

I like this. There's a difference between desire, in the sense of an obsessive grasping at things/sensations/experiences, and an appetite for life.
That reminds me of hex 44, a side of it at least.
 

neegula

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at the same time young and innocent.

And let's consider that the Kama Sutra is believed to have been written by an ascetic monk, and that Tantric sex is first a spiritual disciple.
i was quite surprise when i had It in my hands;
i found myself studying it, not reading. it was very Sweet and Clear:)
 

fkegan

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Machiavelli noted that perspective is required to study in depth, thus rulers studied their people and commoners like him could study Princes (more from being an unemployed court counselor). Also the famous Italian desserts are said to arise from the poverty of Italians with lots of time to dream of what would be an ultimate treat if they could afford it.

The Karma Sutra is known as a spiritual treatise dealing with the pleasure aspect of ideal human life. There is another one dealing with economics and money management.

Desire can be an object of ideal spiritual contemplation, it is only when desire replaces thought that it is considered a lesser decision making principle.

Frank
 
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meng

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The Kama Sutra illustrations penetrate the relation between body and spirit. Participants become embodiments of the divine principles of creation. In western terms, they create their own world, their own Adam and Eve.

This normally goes by so fast during sex that's it's unnoticed. Consciousness fades, giving way to consuming sensations: the "little death". This is the opposite of what the Kama Sutra and Tantra practices. A high level of composure and concentration is required from each. Ecstasy is not allowed to sweep them away, but together they blissfully sustain life.
 

Tohpol

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The Kama Sutra illustrations penetrate the relation between body and spirit. Participants become embodiments of the divine principles of creation. In western terms, they create their own world, their own Adam and Eve.

This normally goes by so fast during sex that's it's unnoticed. Consciousness fades, giving way to consuming sensations: the "little death". This is the opposite of what the Kama Sutra and Tantra practices. A high level of composure and concentration is required from each. Ecstasy is not allowed to sweep them away, but together they blissfully sustain life.
Yeah, and developed as a high art for the spritually dedicated rather than a weekend course for $500. Unless you're with your platonic polar opposite i.e. your twin soul then it pays to be darn careful when playing about with these energies as it's like playing with the Creative - directly on tap and can potentially short-circuit the mind/body matrix in a variety of ways.

Quite potent stuff at the basic level of bio-chemicals / animal instincts as we know, but when the "subtle body" and the sexual "centre" gets consciously activated with all that breathing ....Holy Moses. Not a game of "twister" that's for sure. Be prepared for some increased "evolution" courtesy of the Universe if ya go plucking its Universal strings...:D

Topal
 
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meng

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Yeah, and developed as a high art for the spritually dedicated rather than a weekend course for $500.
I agree in good humor, but take exception to it also. The principles can be practiced with those who may not be especially spiritually dedicated. A higher awareness is both the process and the goal, which means those with a higher awareness or who desire a higher awareness of those energies can practice it whenever they choose, to whatever degree they can achieve. Even ordinary love making can be expanded through patience, awareness and appreciation. Those are pretty fundamental to unity beyond ape man. chuckle
 

Tohpol

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I agree in good humor, but take exception to it also. The principles can be practiced with those who may not be especially spiritually dedicated. A higher awareness is both the process and the goal, which means those with a higher awareness or who desire a higher awareness of those energies can practice it whenever they choose, to whatever degree they can achieve. Even ordinary love making can be expanded through patience, awareness and appreciation. Those are pretty fundamental to unity beyond ape man. chuckle
Sure! And I'm all for that expansion. :D

I don't mean to infer that ancient tantric practice is just for the initiated so to speak. My point was the "principles" - in terms of a set of keys to access certain stages - were created as a disciplined (and safe) process of spiritual knowing. Since then, regardless of whether or not tantra is successful to that end, the schools have very often become diluted or distorted; a mish-mash of the original tantric practices. Cultural context plays a part in this kind of teaching too. That inevitably has implications for the dilettante.

So, I think caution is needed when adopting practices outside the realm of "standard" love-making, is all, especially when it involves breathing techniques. This is why experimentation with breathing techniques / sexual practices is seen as unwise in some spiritual traditions as it is said that certain "kundalini" reactions, (loosely named) can burn away certain "webs" separating the centres / chakras before the individual is ready to cope with it, for example. But in a truly loving relationship perhaps that is mitigated - or not. Maybe it depends entirely on the individuals in question as to whether the above applies.

Then there's the Sex Magick crowd and various other folks on that path throw such caution to the wind as a matter of course, as they want such immediate and potent effects, failing to see the inherent contradiction.

It's all very interesting...

Topal
 

neegula

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but when the "subtle body" and the sexual "centre" gets consciously activated with all that breathing ....Holy Moses.

Not a game of "twister" that's for sure.

Topal
i never went to any course, but i knew breathing is asked to remain calm, and attention kept like eyes focused on embers instead of on flames.

't does it mean twister in this case?:blush:
 

Trojina

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Sure! And I'm all for that expansion. :D



So, I think caution is needed when adopting practices outside the realm of "standard" love-making, is all, especially when it involves breathing techniques.


It's all very interesting...

Topal
(There speaks the voice of experience :rofl:)
 

fkegan

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are we talking about the same sutra?
Hi Neegula,

But it is different when the text comes up in Indian Buddhism class than just picking it up on your own. I had the opportunity to do both.

Frank
 

neegula

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Hi Neegula,

But it is different when the text comes up in Indian Buddhism class than just picking it up on your own. I had the opportunity to do both.

Frank
of course it is very different, i'm sure about this.
very very great part of Books i had/have in my hands came to me without being in a class leaded by a teacher, apart from Chaitanya life, course in miracles, acquarius gospel and few others...
 

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