Divination and neo Judaic religion.

[brazinglyunaware]

I haven’t come to Clarity for some time due to uncertainty biblically speaking. Is IChing a sin for those who are Christians and have the Bible as their roadmap? I don’t want to knowingly sin if divination is biblically wrong. Thanks for any comments.

 

[surnevs]

I haven’t come to Clarity for some time due to uncertainty biblically speaking. Is IChing a sin for those who are Christians and have the Bible as their roadmap? I don’t want to knowingly sin if divination is biblically wrong. Thanks for any comments.

As Christians, we are sinners (beforehand). If you use the Wilhelm-Baynes translation of the I Ching you will know plenty of references to the New Testament. I've asked myself: did Jesus study Tao Te Ching?
- or for that matter: Daoism ? Taking Lao Tse to have existed, this work has had around half a millennia to reach the area in which Jesus lived and it has also had an influence on thoughts around the I Ching, not thereby saying that the I is Daoistic, but could be seen in the light of it, partly. I think that, if you have doubts you should consider reading the Introduction to the missionary James Legge's translation of the I Ching.

 

[rosada]

Consulting the I Ching is a form of divination. Deuteronomy 18.10 explicitly states that divination is a sin every bit as displeasing to God as wearing clothes made of different types of cloth or a man lying with another man - unless they are on drugs (“If a man lies with another man they should be stoned”).

 

[Hans_K]

Consulting the I Ching is a form of divination. Deuteronomy 18.10 explicitly states that divination is a sin every bit as displeasing to God as wearing clothes made of different types of cloth or a man laying with a man unless they are on drugs (“If a man lies with another man they should be stoned”).

I am such a sinner on many levels according to this description. I can already feel the heat of hell burning under my feet and yet I can't let it all go.

 

[rosada]

Maybe this is why the I Ching cautions that when one finally has the nerve to do their own think it is best to wear foot protection! (49.1)

 

[Hans_K]

Maybe it's a fungal infection.
Since Hel is cold.

According to Christianity, hell is very hot . And this topic is of course about Christianity and the use of the I Ching

 

[Trojina]

I haven’t come to Clarity for some time due to uncertainty biblically speaking. Is IChing a sin for those who are Christians and have the Bible as their roadmap? I don’t want to knowingly sin if divination is biblically wrong. Thanks for any comments.

I don't know, I wonder a lot about this myself. It all depends on what or who one thinks one is consulting when divining with the I Ching I guess. Some people see Yi as a 'tool', a sort of thinking aid and don't believe there is any spiritual power operating behind it at all. Going by that model there cannot be anything wrong with consulting it, if it is just an aid to thinking processes.

But what if one believes there is an intelligence behind Yi as I do then is it wrong according to the bible ? It would depend wouldn't it on the nature of that intelligence. Some people believe that answers from Yi are actually from God, that Yi is a source of Wisdom as described in Proverbs 8, referenced by Roger Sessions when he discussed this issue in his book 'The Christian I Ching'.

Or what if, as some believe, it is not God we consult neither is it a little 'thinking aid' or mythological playthingy nor just a reflection of our own psyches but a spiritual intelligence that is not God but is very compassionate and wise such as an angel or Genie ? Then is it wrong?

I wrestle with this question as I work my way through the bible being only on Numbers at this point but having encountered lots and of course Urim and Thummin which I read were ways of divining to know God's will.

Clearly the bible states obeying/worshipping deities, gods besides God is wrong and ultimately only enslaves us. So if one thinks Yi is a mini god then it could be wrong to consult, I really don't know.

Over the years I have never had the sense consulting Yi was wrong and indeed many times in readings I have known Yi appear to recognise Jesus, there are some beautiful readings that show this. I feel Yi 'knows' Jesus I don't think Yi opposes Christianity at all. So one can ask Yi about Jesus but what about asking Jesus about Yi ? I have asked, I sincerely seek to know what Jesus would say to me about Yi and I believe I can ask though as yet I am still unsure. Currently I have the feeling Jesus isn't bothered, as if it's not a concern, but I don't know. I hope to know one day. (Chortling at myself at saying 'Jesus isn't bothered.....as if I know, I do not know'....I never heard Jesus say the words in the bible 'I am not bothered either way' )

So in answer to your question whether it is sinful to consult (and I don't want to fall into the trap of using a narrow sense of the word 'sin' as wrong doing but mainly separation from God) it does depend on who you think you are consulting when you consult.

No one knows the answer to that, people only have opinions.

Also where does divining fit with prayer? Often people in dire straits will cast many frantic questions to the I Ching but don't think of simply praying which is far less complicated. So they are happy to sit for 4 days thinking about what the horse in line 4 is doing or whatever but they haven't considered simply praying for help with their problems. It's worth experimenting (if it weren't sinful ) on how resolutions or help come with prayer and how they come with Yi. When consulting Yi people are still very often in the manipulative mindset of 'how can I work this out so it all turns out best for me' and they caught up in endless loops of second guessing and such which can also occur with prayer I guess. But in prayer one is more open to answers coming from all around and from within it's not all focused on what line 3 means and looking things up in the hexagram search. And the flip side of that is sometimes one wants that narrowness of response.

But is it wrong to consult the I Ching? I really don't know. I still do it, I'm not always at ease with doing it and I certainly wouldn't want to dismiss your question as some kind of joke because actually it is a serious matter.

Another point is if you read the bible then isn't it the case whichever bit you are reading the point is there is only one worthwhile endeavour in this lifetime and that is to know God better. That is all we have to do, nothing is more important than that. Does consulting the I Ching help us to know God better ? It may well do for all I know. After all it replies to anyone regardless of whether they think it is a projection, a tool or a deity, it doesn't matter what they think it is it still answers. Maybe the guidance and kindness we often receive from Yi is a way of coming to know God better ? Maybe we get to know God better through asking about little things in our lives and the one thing the bible does also deal with is people's daily lives, it's not a remote 'you must be detached and completely reactionless and nothing matters it's all a mirage' kind of deal at all and neither is Yi. And maybe people who have no belief in God at all get to know God better through consulting Yi even though they don't know it....? Or maybe they don't. I don't know.

I spoke to a Christian mentor once about this. She didn't know what Yi was of course and she said something like 'well God's not going to take it away from you if you want/need it' so I think she saw it as a bit of a comfort blanket though she wasn't at all judgmental about it.

In short there is no alternative other than to decide for yourself whether you feel it is okay to divine with the I Ching. Oh, also you could pray about it, ask in prayer for a sense of what to do?

 

[Liselle]

So in answer to your question whether it is sinful to consult (and I don't want to fall into the trap of using a narrow sense of the word 'sin' as wrong doing but mainly separation from God)

This is something I've only recently learned, by listening to some audiobooks about Christianity - sin isn't what I thought. It's not always anything objectively wrong, and it's not necessarily the same for everyone (with many exceptions, of course). As Trojina says, sin is separation from God, what takes you away from what God wants for you.

This has helped a good number of my readings make more sense, actually.

I wonder if it also sheds light on a couple of readings Hilary did?

• "Yi [...] how were you made?" 11uc
  

  Blog post: I don’t know the first thing about the Yi

  Sequel: Hexagrams as pictures Well, here I am getting started teaching week 1 of the I Ching Foundations Class, so it’s hard to think of a better title for a blog post… Oh, I know quite a few things about Yi. I know some of its history and the stories behind its words, and how its components...

  www.onlineclarity.co.uk
• "What does the Nativity [the Incarnation] mean for us?" 11 again, lines 3 and 5 moving.
  
  

  Christmas I Ching

  I' ve been wondering and delighting in this reading for a year now - it seems a good time to share it. I had a Christian upbringing, and as I started reflecting for myself, I never quite saw the point of the Incarnation. God is here, of course - where else would we be? So I never altogether understo

  www.onlineclarity.co.uk

11 - heaven and earth interact. Vs. being separated in 12.

 

[my_key]

I haven’t come to Clarity for some time due to uncertainty biblically speaking. Is IChing a sin for those who are Christians and have the Bible as their roadmap? I don’t want to knowingly sin if divination is biblically wrong. Thanks for any comments.

From the perspective of Christanity there seems to be confusion in the Bible about the appropriateness of divination practices. Perhaps the extremes are displayed in an affirming way with the disciples casting lots and at other extreme the worship of false gods.

In the original Hebrew, the word that has been translated as sin carries a sense of 'having missed the target' and it appears to be that there has been a magnification of its meaning in the ensuing years.

Divination, in similar fashion, has been exposed to some bad press over the years and was even forbidden for religious or political reasons in a number of ancient societies. The etymology of the word divine shows clear roots in the Latin divinus "of a god," and in divus "of or belonging to a god, inspired, prophetic". It has morphed over the centuries to also convey a sense of things that are supernatural or magical, especially with regards to divination practice which has been seen increasingly by many as a mumbo-jumbo based predictor of the future.

When looking at sin it can be useful to take the cultural sting out of the word. Sin when boiled down to it's essence speaks of a lack of love, non-judgement, honesty, respect, honour and compassion towards self and others in including God. In that way the teachings of the Bible must promote love, non-judgement, honesty, respect, honour and compassion towards self and others in including God. At the root of the word divination there is a clear connection with a god. I guess the dilemma here is whether a god is actually the God. So if you believe the teachings that divination is the following of a false god then I guess it is a sin. The question that might then be asked is do I worship my divination practice at the expense of all else?

The qualities of not sinning ring very true to the path advocated by Yi for the junzi; 'the ideal realising person', who is invited to display love, honesty, respect, honour and compassion towards self and others during the many trials that life brings. So, for me consulting with I Ching is not promoting a sinful approach to life in any way shape or form. Engaging the wisdom of Yi promotes the growth of a 'realising person' who is better able to conduct themselves in sin-free ways. This is achieved through reflection upon and learning from life lessons. In so doing he becomes full of greater awareness; more self aware. As Jesus says in the Bible that one of the major paths towards God is to 'Know Thyself' then it seems that divining with I Ching is doing no more than Jesus was asking of you.

 

[moss elk]

I think it is important to note the difference between the concepts of 'Sin' and 'Trangression'.

One can truly only 'sin' against the teachings of a religious group, or the organization itself which claims divine authority for themselves and created what is known in the West as 'Royalty' who also claim divine authority over 'lessor' people.
-Read Thomas Payne 1791 on the absurdity of monarchy: https://oll.libertyfund.org/quote/thomas-paine-on-the-absurdity-of-an-hereditary-monarchy-1791
Some people, like myself, consider that whole two-pronged partnership a trangression against humanity (Divinity's children) that has existed for millenia. Remember how Royalty and the Churches until only recent times all used to condone Slavery?


Transgression is a much more important concept, because it spans cultures around the globe and doesn't require any belief system to know that when you harm another human being it is, generally speaking, a bad thing. (I won't go into specific examples of when it is a good thing to do here)
We innately know when we witness someone committing a transgression
(even on video) , we have physiological responses to ranging from shock to revulsion to anger. We sense it, it is real.

To sum up:
Trangressions are real and observable.
Sin is made up and contemplable.

 

[my_key]

I think this is an important differentiation and there is a case if one is to follow this split level approach that the ' lower level ' aspect of transgressions does align more with the idea of missing a target rather than have everything tarred with the same brush of eternal damnation.

Using different words:

Transgressions are acts with break a humanity based moral or ethical code.
Sin, in a religious context, is a transgression against divine law or a law of God.

The Bible is explicit in the Ten Commandments defining what I would call a god-given decree of the worst transgressions. The first few commandments focus on God related things - perhaps these are the real sinning material. One more speaks of respect for the ancestors and the rest comment on the moral and ethical code of conduct required to minimise man's inhumanity to man.

There is also in all this, the wonderfully tricky tightrope to walk of spiritual perspectives vs religion.

I've always liked the Egyptian approach where they believed that the heart recorded all of the good and bad deeds of a person’s life. On dying the heart, an embodiment of the soul, is weighed on a set of scales against a feather, representing truth and justice. The arbiter of the weigh-in is Anubis and the outcome is recorded by Thoth. A decent enough life is judged as having been lived if the heart balances with the feather. Having been classified as worthy this allows you to become the recipient of a passkey into paradise.

I wonder how heavy the use of a divination practice weighs on the purity of the soul?

 

[Graham_Giles]

I'm not saying this is my view, but it is as close as I can get to the Christian perspective on this.

From conversations I've had with my godmother about this, one reason that Christians don't use divination tools is that they believe that when you do so you're contacting and opening up to the world of "spirits", and they're a mixed bag - you're as likely to contect a harmful or even mischievous spirit as you are one that wants to help you.

Christians also believe that when they pray they're in direct contact with Jesus, so putting these two together they would see divination as not only problematic but also unnecessary.

 

[Trojina]

Christians also believe that when they pray they're in direct contact with Jesus, so putting these two together they would see divination as not only problematic but also unnecessary.

Yes, 'unnecessary' that ties in to another thought I had in relation to the original poster's question

I haven’t come to Clarity for some time due to uncertainty biblically speaking. Is IChing a sin for those who are Christians and have the Bible as their roadmap? I don’t want to knowingly sin if divination is biblically wrong. Thanks for any comments.

It can be also the case I imagine that if one is especially deeply devoted in Christian faith or indeed any other faith there will come a point where it might simply would feel odd/obsolete to then be going off to consult an ancient Chinese oracle. Not that it would be wrong to do so exactly but that there just wouldn't be space for it or it's not part of that path.

As Graham said I think much of the caution about divination in the bible is to do with coming into contact with harmful or misleading spirits. We cannot discern easily between helpful and unhelpful entities in the spirit world. Many new agers have come out to say what they thought was their spirit guide, all sweetness and light, was in fact not (note I am not one to psychologise the reality of the spirit world out of existence into the whole 'it's all in our minds/unconscious kind of deal). But I don't feel/it is not my experience that consulting Yi is like calling on random spirits exactly, but, well, it all boils down to, as I said before, what you think Yi is, who or what you think is answering.

I have the idea that the deeper one goes into one's faith then naturally the less one would be drawn to consult the I Ching but obviously I don't have any data to support that as yet.

 

[my_key]

I'm not saying this is my view, but it is as close as I can get to the Christian perspective on this.

From conversations I've had with my godmother about this, one reason that Christians don't use divination tools is that they believe that when you do so you're contacting and opening up to the world of "spirits", and they're a mixed bag - you're as likely to contect a harmful or even mischievous spirit as you are one that wants to help you.

This is true from my experience in divination. Never engage with it while you are drunk, under the influence of drugs or feeling really emotionally or physically shredded. Divination is a practice best conducted from a strong centre. The stronger you are, standing in your power, the better the centre you hold and the better you will be able to withstand the unhealthier elements of the spirit world and their trickery. Equally, strong centres create the best exchanges of dialogue. The still small voice within is very easily buffeted if the centre is not held securely.

Christians also believe that when they pray they're in direct contact with Jesus, so putting these two together they would see divination as not only problematic but also unnecessary.

You make a valid point here Graham, although it isn't shared by me, both on the problematic and unnecessary fronts.

(Graham - None of my following comments are aimed at you. I'm just offering my perspective.)

Christian views are, indeed, that praying can be seen as direct contact with Jesus or even God. That view is not to be knocked - prayer works. Although why there is a need in some Christians to knock an alternative perspective, can be baffling. Many fine, upstanding clean-living people hold beliefs that divination is a connection to God too.

This could perhaps, be seen as protectionism by some or that enforcing of the belief that there is only one way to commune with the divine i.e. through the church and /or religion. Or perhaps many other perspectives could be offered here by way of explanation.

As a kid I used to play football in the street, where we pretended to be football stars of the day. All was well until anybody other than the lad whose ball we played with wanted to be Bobby Charlton. At this point the ball was picked up and closely followed by the words 'I want to be Bobby Charlton. If you don't let me be Bobby Charlton I'm leaving and taking my ball home'. My way or the highway! How easy it is in one act to destroy the joy of so many others!

I always wonder about what the motivations are behind banning or outlawing something. You only have to look back to the Spanish Inquisition or, more recently, to McCarthyism in USA to witness the inhumanity of man on man when outlawing alternative belief systems. The authority that ruled at those times eventually showed up to be a coercive body based in a flawed belief system. (There will most likely be more modern similar episodes but for now they elude me.)

Having been baptised into a Christian world, I believe that everything is under God and each thing has been created for a purpose. Perhaps divination has been allowed into God's world by God ( for who else opens the door?) for some divine reason. Do the people who want to knock divination believe they know better than God or doubt God's will? - For thy will be done!

It might even be here for the hard of hearing, or weak of voice who need a bit of help, when dialling up God, because there is some static or other interference on the direct line making communication difficult. Who knows? How bountiful, though, the world is if there are actually at least two ways to speak with God.

We all have our own path to walk. So, Christians who are not in favour of divination have just as much right to follow their truths as anyone else. And long may that be so.

 

[trauts]

It is not a sin if you use it to consult your "higher self" or soul that responds to you with a symbolic answer to your question--just as it does in dreams. If you are using it for inner growth and to do the right thing in circumstances, how can that be a sin? Meditation is not a sin and when you consult your higher self for a good purpose it is meditation. There are many paths to God and this is one way to reach your higher self or soul in order to communicate with it.

 

[moss elk]

There are many paths to God and this is one way to reach your higher self or soul in order to communicate with it.

Right, and there is no reason to doubt
the Dao of Jesus.

The Dao of Religion is another thing altogether with a completely different character. Big J never said "religion is the way, the truth, the life"

And the good Samaritan didn't go to mass.
Does that tell you anything?


As Ghandi once said,
"Oh, I don't reject your Christ. I love your Christ. It is just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ"

Gandhi's message to Christians | Africa needs Gandhi

Complete book online about the relevance of Gandhi's doctrine of non-violence

www.mkgandhi.org

 

[Graham_Giles]

This is true from my experience in divination. Never engage with it while you are drunk, under the influence of drugs or feeling really emotionally or physically shredded. Divination is a practice best conducted from a strong centre. The stronger you are, standing in your power, the better the centre you hold and the better you will be able to withstand the unhealthier elements of the spirit world and their trickery. Equally, strong centres create the best exchanges of dialogue. The still small voice within is very easily buffeted if the centre is not held securely.

You make a valid point here Graham, although it isn't shared by me, both on the problematic and unnecessary fronts.

(Graham - None of my following comments are aimed at you. I'm just offering my perspective.)

Christian views are, indeed, that praying can be seen as direct contact with Jesus or even God. That view is not to be knocked - prayer works. Although why there is a need in some Christians to knock an alternative perspective, can be baffling. Many fine, upstanding clean-living people hold beliefs that divination is a connection to God too.

This could perhaps, be seen as protectionism by some or that enforcing of the belief that there is only one way to commune with the divine i.e. through the church and /or religion. Or perhaps many other perspectives could be offered here by way of explanation.

As a kid I used to play football in the street, where we pretended to be football stars of the day. All was well until anybody other than the lad whose ball we played with wanted to be Bobby Charlton. At this point the ball was picked up and closely followed by the words 'I want to be Bobby Charlton. If you don't let me be Bobby Charlton I'm leaving and taking my ball home'. My way or the highway! How easy it is in one act to destroy the joy of so many others!

I always wonder about what the motivations are behind banning or outlawing something. You only have to look back to the Spanish Inquisition or, more recently, to McCarthyism in USA to witness the inhumanity of man on man when outlawing alternative belief systems. The authority that ruled at those times eventually showed up to be a coercive body based in a flawed belief system. (There will most likely be more modern similar episodes but for now they elude me.)

Having been baptised into a Christian world, I believe that everything is under God and each thing has been created for a purpose. Perhaps divination has been allowed into God's world by God ( for who else opens the door?) for some divine reason. Do the people who want to knock divination believe they know better than God or doubt God's will? - For thy will be done!

It might even be here for the hard of hearing, or weak of voice who need a bit of help, when dialling up God, because there is some static or other interference on the direct line making communication difficult. Who knows? How bountiful, though, the world is if there are actually at least two ways to speak with God.

We all have our own path to walk. So, Christians who are not in favour of divination have just as much right to follow their truths as anyone else. And long may that be so.

Bobby Charlton? You could still have been George Best! (Just kidding, they were both very great footballers.) Good post by the way (and Trojina too).

I attended Barry Long's classes in London in 1987 (he was an Australian spiritual teacher with quite a big following at that time), and at one point he said that anything you are drawn to will serve its purpose to you. He himself studied astrology at one point but said that he eventually realised he had to go beyond it.

 

[Liselle]

The Dao of Religion is another thing altogether with a completely different character. Big J never said "religion is the way, the truth, the life"

As Ghandi once said,
"Oh, I don't reject your Christ. I love your Christ. It is just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ"

He sort of did, I think? Jesus, that is - wanted to establish a religion, a Church, made of people. Which doesn't mean we can't possibly believe in Him without attending services on Sundays, but I imagine it might be more in keeping if we did.

And the fact that so many Christians are unlike Christ - well, er, duh.

 

[Graham_Giles]

Right, and there is no reason to doubt
the Dao of Jesus.

The Dao of Religion is another thing altogether with a completely different character. Big J never said "religion is the way, the truth, the life"

As Ghandi once said,
"Oh, I don't reject your Christ. I love your Christ. It is just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ"

Gandhi's message to Christians | Africa needs Gandhi

Complete book online about the relevance of Gandhi's doctrine of non-violence

www.mkgandhi.org

Another good post. People forget that Jesus was speaking to people in a specific place at a specific time. When he said "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6), he was aware that there were a lot of false teachers at that time whom his followers would have been tempted by. There isn't any evidence that he meant that no one would come to God ever or at any place except through Him.

 

[moss elk]

He sort of did, I think? Jesus, that is - wanted to establish a religion,

Does the fact that most of us on this thread would have executed by the church 1000 or even 500 years ago for saying what we wrote here
In any way make you consider that the organization known as religion (which includes all the cultural superstitions and great gobs of ignorance and divine-royalty) has never been in line with Jesus's intentions? It was created centuries after him.

Food for thought.

 

[Graham_Giles]

Does the fact that most of us on this thread would have executed by the church 1000 or even 500 years ago for saying what we wrote here
In any way make you consider that the organization known as religion (which includes all the cultural superstitions and great gobs of ignorance and divine-royalty) has never been in line with Jesus's intentions?

Food for thought.

Agreed. In the 16th century I would have been executed simply for having a Bible in my home translated into English.

 

[Liselle]

Jesus might not have approved of the church doing those things. Just because a church does bad things isn't evidence that there shouldn't be a church. It just means people can sin collectively as well as individually, and unfortunately even in the name of God.

 

[moss elk]

Jesus might not have approved of the church doing those things. Just because a church does bad things isn't evidence that there shouldn't be a church. It just means people can sin collectively as well as individually, and unfortunately even in the name of God.

No, but it is evidence that the church/religion (and Royalty) has been awfully evil for a good 1700 years now. (No matter their intentions) Because it is about a few, controlling the many. And has always been a tool of wealthy racist Imperialists:
"Well those people are going to hell anyway, let's sell them Opium, take their stuff and enslave them"

Massive Transgressions against humanity,
backing nearly every war of conquest?
Condoning the genocide of Native N&S Americans (and Native Australians)?
Condoning Slavery?
New evidence of at least three centuries of child predation around the globe
And cover ups, & letting those people retain positions of authority.

Within the last 150 years, the church my grandmother was a member of (Southern Baptists, so you know I am not picking on catholics) used to lynch people because of their skin color and then have a picnic. (This was before her joining, she didn't take part)

True story from 5 years ago:
I helped a 95 y/o retired Catholic nun move to a new home. At the end of the day, as I was preparing to leave, she touched my arm and said, out of the blue,
"You know, I don't really believe in organized religion any more"
I didn't respond, just left with the oddness of it all. And I'm not sure why I mentioned it.

When exactly, do you propose that religion 'became' good? Take your time.

 

[Liselle]

It's a battle with no end in sight, true. People and institutions doing bad things, brave people challenging and changing it, new evil sprouting up. Hopefully we'll perfect this some day. That's probably the goal.

 

[dobro p]

I haven’t come to Clarity for some time due to uncertainty biblically speaking. Is IChing a sin for those who are Christians and have the Bible as their roadmap? I don’t want to knowingly sin if divination is biblically wrong. Thanks for any comments.

Why are you asking I Chingers a question about the Bible? Wouldn't it make more sense to ask the Bible users? But if you do, my advice is to ask TWO Bible users. The first would be one who takes everything in the Bible literally. There are people who really believe that because the Bible is a holy book and the word of God, you have to take everything in it literally. (There's stuff in the Old Testament that says don't use oracles, but Jesus never mentioned it.) The second Bible user is one who knows how to think, who knows that times change and you have to adapt. For instance, we don't offer animal sacrifice anymore (when was the last time you offered up a sheep to the priest who cut it up and burnt it in the brazier outside the temple as an offering to the Lord?). We outgrew that bit of barbarity. A thinking Christian knows that although the Bible is a holy book and inspired by the word of God, it was a book for the people and for the time it was written. A thinking Christian also knows that for Christians, a lot of the OT was superseded by the NT (the stuff against using oracles is in the OT).

After you get your two answers, consider them. Which one do you feel, in your heart, is talking to you more? Which one 'clicks'? Then make your decision. Then come back here and report what you decided.

Personal disclaimer: When I use the I Ching, I feel it orients me toward God as the ultimate source of the message that comes through the oracle. I'm pretty sure Jesus would understand.

 

[surnevs]

Imagine I Ching being a person. You can go to all of this person's friends, relatives, rivals, enemies... and get as many points of view concerning this person as possible that finally, you may end up confused. If you have doubts about this person you will not get rid of these doubts unless you go to the person. If you have doubts about whether the I Ching will lead you to sin or not you'll have to go to learn the I Ching from the basic.
(The reason I recommend James Legge's introduction to his translation (#2) is that he is not an "I Chinger", telling you to join it but keeps it objective.)

 

[surnevs]

Surfers on wave tops,
Hello!
Good trip!
What?
Good...
Seagull cries,
Clouds are drifting rapidly.

 

[Tihia Viatar]

Well, there are many branches of Christianity all over. To know if something is accepted there one may need to check the branch they are following asking practitioners there.
In my humble view, this is interesting topic and while I haven't reserached there enough to go too deeply seems good idea to post some ideas on it now from what have stumbled upon through time, as I have studied some of the stuff mention here in length, although mostly in modern form.
As we can't really get one agreed upon approach taken in Christianity, as there are many different forms and teachings there, another path can be to try to figure out if it will align with the teaching Jesus had and its role back at the time.


And that can be approaches from a few directions. Mainly from what we know he supposedly said in the books, of course, but more then that from how historically fits to it all.
As we know he came from Judaism and he kinda did step on it. Did the steps needed there and everything. At the same time he also seem to have brought somewhat different message, about a change needed there.

So to understand how divination fits into that we may need to understand small part of Judaism and what change he was attempting to make.

The inner part of Judaism for a very long time is considered Kabbalah. We call that "esoteric" part, the inner part of a religion with the deep meaning and practices to it. And indeed there are even some forms of Christianity that study the Kabbalah(and I think that is awesome), as that is where Jesus come from and was consider part of for a time. And there are also schools out there that view some of what he said as Kabbalistic metaphors sometimes, although I don't know much about that.
There are quite a lot of forms of Kabbalah that use Divination, one way or another. Some with visions, others with numbers and in more modern times there are more. So save to say where he comes from would be fine with some form of Divination.

We can guess here that the framework he came from may have been fine with Divination in one form or another.
Then the quesiton becomes - did what he wanted to change contradict that, did he tried to replace or move away from that part of Judaism. And I don't think there are indications of that. His teaching seemed to be focused on unconditional love, loving even your enemy, acceptance etc.

One way to look at that could be that he viewed that that is what was needed to Judaism back then. Needed more openness to outside, more acceptance to people that are different etc.
That doesn't seem to have problems with Divination as main message, even the opposite, so save to say in his main teaching there doesn't seem to be problems with it, nor are there in the religion he was coming from, as the hwole 'conflict' there was about something entirely different more focused on inclusiveness and acceptance. So in theory he may have been more open to it then the other religion peoples at the time connected to Judaism.

From metaphysical point of view, the whole event back then is viewed differently, in the schools I respect. But that is way to complex to go into. But there would be division between Jesus and The Christ as different points of focus and none of them would had problems with Divination, in my understanding even the opposite, again.

That being said... At the end of it all, it still comes down to the branch of Christianity one follows. As Churches today doesn't seem as focused on unconditional love and acceptance, sometimes. So safe approach if one wants to do it in accordance with their religion is to ask a priest they respect in there for their opinion/view. : )

In my opinion...
Jesus main message wasn't to be Judmental to other people or practices. At least when we consider what is in the books it seems exactly the opposite. Following what the main message was is good. What that was turned into is a normal human process of degradation at something too pure to be able to keep and apply... Trying to stay with the main message in this case seems wiser. But everyone decides for themself, of course.

Do this means Christians should practice more Divination... Well, its not so simple, this is complex 'Art' and there are difficulties and risks involved. Overall I have absolutly no conflict with my understanding of Christianity(even though I can't say I'm exactly Christian), and Divination... Yet I wouldn't recommend Divination for any Christian, either. So as usual - complex stuff. : )