Divorce? 53.2.4.6 > 28

[Juliah]

Recently I've been looking through my journal and saw a reading made for a person whom I have lost sight of for today. At the moment I am not able to clear up the current situation with his status, but it may be possible in the future. I'll omit the circumstances the more because I do not know them.

The question was: Will X be on the edge of divorcing?
53.2.4.6 > 28

I assumed that yes, over time.

I would appreciate sharing your views on it friends.

 

[Lavalamp]

I would not read 28 as the outcome, but as the context. There are strains on the house, pressure, that is the 28 context.

53 is the image of marriage for life, and you drew the most beautiful lines in the hex. Happiness together, finding their way in the world, living to be old and gray together.

There are many pressures and challenges in human life, in marriage. But this reading says despite strains and pressure, the marriage is a good and happy thing, I think.

- LL

 

[Juliah]

Sounds good and promising. I'll explain why my reading is different.

I started from the image of 28, "the ridgepole sags to the breaking point" - the situation is unstable and stressful, "it furthers one to have somewhere to go". That's the context.

The line 53.6 is beautiful and enigmatic, describing a marriage beyond its limits, the holy marriage. I clearly hear the idea of sacrifice, a skyward departure, a departure at the highest point. The atmosphere of the line is sublime and serene, but actually, it is the atmosphere of farewell full of love and gratitude.

 

[Lavalamp]

Well in 28 you have strain, pressure, as *context.* You asked about being pushed to the breaking point, this hex refers to that, exactly. It refers to your question. The advice is it furthers to have somewhere to go.

54 is about the journey of Wild Geese, who partner for life, they are the symbol of marriage. 54 is one of the 4 hexes in the Yi that refer to marriage. The 3 lines are nice lines Juliah. The couple "goes far", which kind of refers back to the advice.

Maybe you don't want the marriage to work?

- LL

 

[Juliah]

I would be glad to learn that everything is ok with X's marriage.

 

[altair139]

I think they will, but this could take a long time. Hexagram 53 describes a veryyyy slow process. It takes steps.
The question was "Will X be on the edge of divorcing". I assume X has already married and for a long time already then, meaning none of the lines in hexagram 53 will be for his "marriage potential" anymore, it will be how this marriage will go from now on.

Line 2 seems to describe the marriage at its current state, merry and joyous. "The wild goose moves gradually towards a rock". A rock/cliff is usually a safe place for a wild goose to stay. However:
At line 4: The wild goose moves to a tree nearby, maybe it will find a flat branch. No fault
The wife or husband could be stressed (based on hex 28), and she or he seeks a more reliable partner within his or her social circle. This isn't his or her fault. It's supposed to happen, sooner or later.
Line 6: The synthesis is completed. The marriage reaches its end but no hard feeling. The image here is of a goose discarding her old nest on the cliff of line 2 and advancing to the cloud. Its legacy (the goose's feathers - could be children, or simply the memories) are left behind.

Hexagram 28 is usually stress, very heavy stress till the point "the ridgepole is sagging" and "it's better to move elsewhere", since a house without a ridgepole will surely collapse, which could be the marriage at its most critical point.

I dont think a person in a happy marriage will ever ask if they are gonna break up or not. If they raise the question, meaning there's something already in the way.

Anyway this process will take a long time and maybe a few months or a few years later the situation will change for the better, hopefully. We will need feedback to confirm our readings, or else it will just remain as speculations...

 

[jecemis]

I would not read 28 as the outcome, but as the context. There are strains on the house, pressure, that is the 28 context.

How does one determine if the resulting hexagram should be read as the outcome or the context? Is it by way of the relationship/context of the question?

This is something that's confusing me when trying to interpret my own readings.

 

[Juliah]

From the snippets of information I got from X I learnt that the situation was not very good with his marriage, it had become a relationship working one way when there is one who loves and another one who is loved...

I tried to approach the situation from the other side and asked if X and his spouse would succeed in salvaging their marriage.

13.2 > 1 does not sound too promising but healable.

 

[rosada]

Try interpreting the hexagrams first one way and if that isn't helpful try the other way. Actually you may find you get insights from both.

I think of 13.2 > 1 as saying "We're all crazy, that's what makes us family!"

 

[Juliah]

I think of 13.2 > 1 as saying "We're all crazy, that's what makes us family!"

It would be fine if it turns to be so.

 

[Juliah]

How does one determine if the resulting hexagram should be read as the outcome or the context? Is it by way of the relationship/context of the question?

There are different approaches to interpretation of a relating hex. I usually take it as a context of a current situation, what is going on right now. And the first hexagram is forces, driving motives, sprouts of an arising situation; what makes the following situation possible.

 

[Lavalamp]

Because several people here got the line 53.6 when they broke up a long term relationship, a lot of people seem to think it is a break up line. I don't think that is necessarily the case. I think the common thread is they were in long term relationships, and that is the image of 53.6. Perhaps when they asked about ending the relationship, the Yi said to them, "You have been together for a long time - and you aren't getting any younger." Maybe "Your example is going to be a lasting impression/role model for others to follow." I don't think it says one person is going leave the other, although it does happen that someday one half of the couple dies. But the line says "their feathers" are used in a sacred dance. I take this to say the example their relationship sets endures and is seen and emulated by others. It will have an invisible influence on the kids, perhaps.

I do not think a line in a hex makes it your fate that you are going to break up with a partner. That is a fate entirely within your own hands.

- LL

 

[Lavalamp]

As for the relational hexes in a reading, it is typical in my readings that it exactly reflects my question. If I ask about music, I would get 16 as a relational hex. Ask about advancing a relationship, get "approach." Here the question was if a marriage would reach the edge of a break up, the relating hex was about a house being stressed to the breaking point, the lines in a hex about marriage. When you do a casting, I find it's helpful to try to see the big picture first, it can make things simpler and less confusing.

- LL

 

[Juliah]

Lavalamp, thanks a lot for sharing your views.

How would you see 13.2 in the context of salvaging the marriage?

 

[altair139]

13.2 > 1
line 2: A self-serving alliance portends failure.
The fellowship is limited and problems arise.
The image of line 2 is also "unite with people of his own clan.", which could mean the wife's going back to her family.
Hexagram 1 means decisive action in this context I think. What the action exactly is, I'm not very sure.

Because several people here got the line 53.6 when they broke up a long term relationship, a lot of people seem to think it is a break up line. I don't think that is necessarily the case. I think the common thread is they were in long term relationships, and that is the image of 53.6. Perhaps when they asked about ending the relationship, the Yi said to them, "You have been together for a long time - and you aren't getting any younger." Maybe "Your example is going to be a lasting impression/role model for others to follow." I don't think it says one person is going leave the other, although it does happen that someday one half of the couple dies. But the line says "their feathers" are used in a scared dance. I take this to say the example their relationship sets endures and is seen and emulated by others. It will have an invisible influence on the kids, perhaps.

I do not think a line in a hex makes it your fate that you are going to break up with a partner. That is a fate entirely within your own hands.

None of this is necessarily a break up line. The reason why I associate it with "leaving the marriage" is due to line 4 and 2: after discovering the rock the goose then moves to a tree. A tree is a temporary resting place, not a permanent one, then line 6 comes about.
The sacred dance is simply a ritual based on old translation. This "ritual" could be a ritual of the mind aka treasuring the memories

There's no fate involved in Iching. Let's just imagine our lives revolve about a tree of possibilities, one branch when activated will trigger the others, thus the iching's interpretation is only based on what has happened and what could happen next. Fate is something you're born with, your birthright. Here the couple obviously has had problems in the past thus the question of a divorce arose, the Yi only bases on what has happened and gives his oracle. Again, what's given are also just possibilities, we can always change it, but that will depend on how much willpower we have to undo the mistakes.

 

[Juliah]

Altair139, thanks a lot for your input.

The first thought which came to my mind when I started to contemplate 13.2 was the idea if jealousy of one of the partners demanding the marriage to be an impenetrable structure for those who come from outside.
Hope that I am wrong.

 

[Juliah]

Just to add, Altair's post suggested me that.

Can it be so that 13.2 describes the situation when a husband and a wife are not a couple but live like neighbours, on their own? They are a family, formally, but each of them is in his own ancestral temple.

 

[altair139]

Just to add, Altair's post suggested me that.

Can it be so that 13.2 describes the situation when a husband and a wife are not a couple but live like neighbours, on their own? They are a family, formally, but each of them is in his own ancestral temple.

you mean they're separated then?
Hmm I don't think line 2 is like that. According to the image, the marriage is this hexagram 13. The subject line 2 normally should unite with its people (his/her family, husband/wife, children), however it's looking to unite with line 5, which is shameful for him. It's more like a secret affair, it all depends on who the line 5 is.

 

[Juliah]

you mean they're separated then?

Yes, they are separated and each of them lives his own life, but they are in marriage.

however it's looking to unite with line 5

This line is unchanging here.

 

[altair139]

Yes, they are separated and each of them lives his own life, but they are in marriage.



This line is unchanging here.

ya i know line 5 is unchanging. Each line has a mission and its story, here line 2 is looking to unite with line 5 when it's activated, even though line 5 is unactivated.
You can read more here:
http://www.iching123.com/13_text.htm

 

[Juliah]

Yes, I use this source, too. Interesting, this looks like being in accordance with what I thought:

"...wherein the fellowship disappears and only the clan members remain."

Clan members are they who created their own clan (family). Feelings gone, outer envelope left.

 

[Lavalamp]

(re 53.6)
The reason why I associate it with "leaving the marriage" is due to line 4 and 2: after discovering the rock the goose then moves to a tree. A tree is a temporary resting place, not a permanent one, then line 6 comes about.
The sacred dance is simply a ritual based on old translation. This "ritual" could be a ritual of the mind aka treasuring the memories

The PAIR of swans find a resting place. "The Wild GEESE," not "The Wild GOOSE." They come to a place of stability, find a dwelling place, maybe they rent and do not own, something like that. The lines in the hex all refer to the journey of the COUPLE, not a single Swan. I think that is where you are going wrong here.

The line that I think refers to separation and possible divorce is 53.3 (which was not in this reading.) Maybe the husband is called to war, public duty or for some reason separated, and the family suffers. Maybe the wife has a good paying job or public duty and the child is raised by a nanny. Having been separated, one has to be careful of fulfilling your needs outside the marriage (robbers.)

Here in 53 it is the journey of a say, nomadic couple that flies. This is different somewhat than the journey of the farmer couple, or the rich polygamous family with many wives and concubines...

- LL

 

[Lavalamp]

"Can this marriage be saved?"

13.2 refers to small mindedness, exclusivity, literally incest. Sleeping with someone related to you, even by name only, is considered wrong in ancient China. Humiliation and regret exist here. A good question would be if and how that could be overcome.

Sounds like maybe someone slept with someone's brother-in-law/sister-in-law/cousin or best friend maybe. Or someone belongs to a social group that excludes everyone else, like "quit scientology and I will divorce you" or something. (not to slam anyone.) Or maybe they cannot divorce because they're Catholic, or their religion does not allow it.

You need to ask more questions, here the Yi just says it would be difficult as there is a lot of humiliation and regret in the family to be overcome.

- LL

 

[altair139]

The PAIR of swans find a resting place. "The Wild GEESE," not "The Wild GOOSE." They come to a place of stability, find a dwelling place, maybe they rent and do not own, something like that. The lines in the hex all refer to the journey of the COUPLE, not a single Swan. I think that is where you are going wrong here.

Here it is the journey of a solitary couple that flies. This is different somewhat than the journey of the farmer couple, or the rich polygamous family with many wives and concubines...

- LL

No, the chinese texts do not indicate it's plural or singular, and most of the translations indicate that it's singular (wilhelm/baynes, blofield, ritsema/karcher, shaughnessy). If it's really plural, there would be interaction between them. It's definitely not telling a story of a couple, that's for sure. If it is it would be found in numerous chinese texts, but not even one indicates there're 2 geese. (plus, geese doesn't necessarily mean a couple, it could be 2,3,4... or even more).
Moreover most of the times, a line only describes one subject, and other lines will represent their own subjects in the same hexagram (thus in 13.2, we can see the subject in line 2 wants to unite with line 5). Each subject/lines in the hexagrams interact with each other, so it would be very confusing if one line represents many subjects, in your case, geese instead of goose. Even in hexagram 53, line 2 is constantly looking forward to unite with line 5 too (so similar to 13.2, eh?), if this line is about 2 people, it wouldn't make sense.

 

[Lavalamp]

I think Legge and Lise are closer than the twice translated Wilhelm here, they say "Geese" and the hex is about marriage, these birds couple for life. It is the journey of the couple, it is a hex about marriage, not a wandering bachelor or bachelorette. That would be 56.

- LL

 

[Lavalamp]

53.2 wanting to be at 53.5 makes sense. They are just coming to where they have solid land under their feet, a foundation to support them. But to have children, they would like not just to be on solid land but also to have money and a nice house, built up resources, they want to be up on the hill. When you put off having kids until you have enough money to feel comfortable having kids, it is harder to get pregnant. But if at first you don't succeed, try, try again... It's all good.

Where other than in this hex would you say such issues are discussed in the Yi?

- LL

 

[altair139]

Nope the only reason why the hexagram is related to marriage is because of its nature: Gradual progress, like how a maiden is married into a traditional household in china, careful and graceful, which is auspicious.

The goose always had companions in the lines: The water, the rock/cliff, the plateau, the trees, the summit and finally cloud heights. It's not about a couple of geese journeying together, it's about how the goose was finding appropriate alliances throughout his journey. I repeat: There's no proof from the chinese text that the oracle is talking about a couple of geese travelling together. The only companion the goose has is its environment.

56 is different, it's also about a wandering person but he's constantly changing places, and the situation is not controlled by him (his int was burnt, his servant left him, he had to find a temporary shelter, in the end even his cow left him). The situation made the subject a wanderer, totally different from hexagram 53, where the goose could be settled down but still wanders to reach a higher vantage point (it moves slowly up from the water to the cloud heights, thus gradual process)

 

[Lavalamp]

Well - you hold an extreme view. 53 is one of the 4 hexes in the Yi that specifically refer to marriage. When the judgement says, "The maiden is given in marriage," to say that is only about how things develop *exclusive of actual marriage* is a bit rigid and makes things less clear. Yes it could give one advice on gradual progress of an individual, but Wild Geese is not only metaphor, it can be the couple that sticks together as the actual subject of the reading. Why not?

Here the querent's question was specifically about marriage. Here, the iChing replied with a marriage hex - giving a *direct answer* in my opinion. And the Chinese chose the Wild Geese as the marriage symbol because they mate for life. You read as works for you. I think your advice/rationale however, is rather complex and that the Yi is as straightforward and simple as possible. The idea that everything is hard to understand, deeply philosophical and arcane secret knowledge or something is a mistaken concept. Like Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Being a good reader is learning to simplify. Most often this is hardest thing, in any area of human endeavor, in my experience.

Conjugal love/a couple's journey is certainly as important a subject as politics, or the two hexes that refer to man made objects, or art, music, ruling an empire, learning to learn... And as I asked you, where are such things discussed if not in 53 Wild Geese, 32 the Waterwheel, and the other marriage hexes? It has to be somewhere, no? You are divorcing the symbology of the hex which is it's literal meaning from the reading. So of course you end up calling the most beautiful lines in the hex, about a couple together growing though the stages of married life all lines about divorce. Because your entire approach is biased towards divorce. So that is what you see in the lines.

The lines the querent did not receive in 53 are far more problematic.

- LL

 

[altair139]

Well - you hold an extreme view. 53 is one of the 4 hexes in the Yi that specifically refer to marriage. When the judgement says, "The maiden is given in marriage," to say that is only about how things develop *exclusive of actual marriage* is a bit rigid and makes things less clear. Yes it could give one advice on gradual progress of an individual, but Wild Geese is not only metaphor, it can be the couple that sticks together as the actual subject of the reading. Why not?

Here the querent's question was specifically about marriage. Here, the iChing replied with a marriage hex - giving a *direct answer* in my opinion. And the Chinese chose the Wild Geese as the marriage symbol because they mate for life. You read as works for you. I think your advice/rationale however, is rather complex and that the Yi is as straightforward and simple as possible. The idea that everything is hard to understand, deeply philosophical and arcane secret knowledge or something is a mistaken concept. Like Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Being a good reader is learning to simplify. Most often this is hardest thing, in any area of human endeavor, in my experience.

Conjugal love/a couple's journey is certainly as important a subject as politics, or the two hexes that refer to man made objects, or art, music, ruling an empire, learning to learn... And as I asked you, where are such things discussed if not in 53 Wild Geese, 32 the Waterwheel, and the other marriage hexes? It has to be somewhere, no? You are divorcing the symbology of the hex which is it's literal meaning from the reading. So of course you end up calling the most beautiful lines in the hex, about a couple together growing though the stages of married life all lines about divorce. Because your entire approach is biased towards divorce. So that is what you see in the lines.

The lines the querent did not receive in 53 are far more problematic.

- LL

No, the marriage itself is a metaphor of the hexagram, the goose is the metaphor of the lines. I've said this many times: It's compared to marriage because of its nature - gradual process. This hexagram is not even the ideal hex for marriage (there's caution and traditional values as the wife carefully heads to the husband's house). Hexagrams such as 31 or 16 are far more superior in terms of auspiciousness. In fact, when young couples receive this hexagram when they ask "what's the potential of us getting married?", they will be told "Be patient, then that fated moment will come". The hexagram is NOT about marriage. It's about slow process, patience, gradual improvement, which are good for marriage, but the hexagram is definitely not about marriage. Hexagram 32 is similar to this hexagram too, its metaphor is marriage (you should be loyal as if you're in the marriage), the hexagram itself doesn't talk only about marriage. The judgment of a hexagram is almost always a metaphor, the image is what the hexagram really is about.

Goose mate for life, yes, but not in every context. People can receive 53 in asking for examination results, diseases, businesses, how does that make sense if we use the geese here?? The goose is NOT important. What it's doing in the hexagram is more significant here. What you're using as your argument is simply a metaphor that can't be used in every situation. It helps us understand more, but it's not meant to be used in our judgment.

Another example: Hexagram 6 talks about lawsuit, but you can get this when asked about just a simple argument. Would the person arguing with you sue you? Most likely not if it's only over a petty thing.

The question is not just about marriage, it's about the end of the marriage, aka divorce. It's normal for the situation to be bad too even when all the lines are good, if the result hexagram is bad. 28 is very, very bad for marriage because it's about something collapsing due to stress. How come all 3 lines are auspicious yet the result's image is of something collapsing? Illogical isn't it?

And also, to determine the auspiciousness of the lines we can't only look at the commentary alone, when it says "it's auspicious", meaning it's auspicious? No. In fact in some deeper variation of Iching interpretation it only helps to alleviate the bad omen when you consider all other information such as astrological signs, date and time of the query, these are more absolute in determining the auspiciousness of the lines and hexagrams.

I came to the conclusion of a divorce because of all 3 changing lines AND hexagram 28. How is it biased when hexagram 28 is so obvious of a shaky marriage? Plus all 3 changing lines were talking about a goose leaving its nest in order to reach a higher vantage point. It all makes sense to me.

 

[Trojina]

The question is not just about marriage, it's about the end of the marriage, aka divorce. It's normal for the situation to be bad too even when all the lines are good, if the result hexagram is bad. 28 is very, very bad for marriage because it's about something collapsing due to stress. How come all 3 lines are auspicious yet the result's image is of something collapsing? Illogical isn't it?

Not half as illogical as the idea that the relating hexagram is the 'result' of the reading. The relating hexagram is all that surrounds the issue including past and present issues with often a bit of the future too but it is not the 'result'. I will post you a link. It also doesn't make sense to say 'the result hexagram is bad'. No hexagram is 'bad' nor 'bad for marriage'.

To say '28 is very very bad for marriage' doesn't really mean much as it might refer simply to a stressful period in the marriage or conditions beyond the marriage which have impacted upon it such as family pressures or finances and so on.