Divorce? 53.2.4.6 > 28

[Trojina]

There's this from the foundations course although I think you need to be a Change Circle member to access it http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/foundations/4-primary-and-relating-hexagram/

This is a good Blog post on the topic http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2013/06/01/the-old-resulting-hexagram-conundrum/ and there's another link within that.

 

[Lavalamp]

Learning here on Clarity, from Hilary and Trojan and everyone a better understanding of the relating hex improved my understanding of the Yi immensely. As the blog post Trojina linked to discusses, without understanding the relating hex's role, readings can be very confusing to interpret.

- LL

 

[altair139]

Not half as illogical as the idea that the relating hexagram is the 'result' of the reading. The relating hexagram is all that surrounds the issue including past and present issues with often a bit of the future too but it is not the 'result'. I will post you a link. It also doesn't make sense to say 'the result hexagram is bad'. No hexagram is 'bad' nor 'bad for marriage'.

To say '28 is very very bad for marriage' doesn't really mean much as it might refer simply to a stressful period in the marriage or conditions beyond the marriage which have impacted upon it such as family pressures or finances and so on.

28 isn't just a normal stress (like hexagram 34 or 6), its level is immense, as its name indicates: "Preponderance of the great" , thus arguably the most stressful situation a hexagram can depict. And it's better to "move somewhere else" as staying in the house is totally out of the question unless you want injuries. The balance is thrown off, as 2 weak lines are trying to contain 4 strong lines inside and it's impossible to hold. When received this hexagram in matters such as businesses, examination, job situation etc, it's usually advised to drop what you're doing and move to something else. It usually talks about a wrong path, a wrong decision that led to a difficult situation, wrong insight etc... So in a marriage query, how can you make this a good hexagram for marriage? What can it possible portray here to make it a good hexagram for marriage?

Iching is a practice of studying the cause and effect in nature (remember when i talk about a tree of possibility? The leaf at the end of the branch can't be disturbed if the branch isn't disturbed first). The resulting hexagram is an effect produced by the causes, which are the changing lines. Thus it could be the result, or the consequences when all the changing lines have done changing. This has always been something like a rule accepted by various practitioners of many generations, so it's your opinion to discard hexagram 28 as the result of the reading. For me it's the consequence when all 3 changing lines have changed. If you follow another method, it's your method. My method is to stick with the cause and effect concept like how it has always been for generations.

 

[Trojina]

28 isn't just a normal stress (like hexagram 34 or 6), its level is immense, as its name indicates: "Preponderance of the great" , thus arguably the most stressful situation a hexagram can depict. And it's better to "move somewhere else" as staying in the house is totally out of the question unless you want injuries.

Altair I'm no learned scholar but I have been consulting for nearly 40 years and I know by now one must always scale the answer to the question. One can get 28 when one is upset...or feeling over whelmed emotionally. Yes it can indicate extreme feelings of stress but this need not always be a literal threat of immediate collapse of something. It might indicate possibility of injury on some occasions....or it can mean you need a holiday !

The balance is thrown off, as 2 weak lines are trying to contain 4 strong lines inside and it's impossible to hold. When received this hexagram in matters such as businesses, examination, job situation etc, it's usually advised to drop what you're doing and move to something else. It usually talks about a wrong path, a wrong decision that led to a difficult situation, wrong insight etc... So in a marriage query, how can you make this a good hexagram for marriage? What can it possible portray here to make it a good hexagram for marriage?

Well I don't think of hexagrams as either 'good for marriage' or 'bad for marriage'. Marriages are relationships not static things.

Iching is a practice of studying the cause and effect in nature (remember when i talk about a tree of possibility? The leaf at the end of the branch can't be disturbed if the branch isn't disturbed first). The resulting hexagram is an effect produced by the causes, which are the changing lines. Thus it could be the result, or the consequences when all the changing lines have done changing. This has always been something like a rule accepted by various practitioners of many generations, so it's your opinion to discard hexagram 28 as the result of the reading. For me it's the consequence when all 3 changing lines have changed. If you follow another method, it's your method. My method is to stick with the cause and effect concept like how it has always been for generations.

Well it's not just my opinion, it can be seen in practice by anyone who does readings for any amount of time. You are entitled to use your own method of course.

I've not read much of this thread but my impression of the answer if it is a direct answer is :

Recently I've been looking through my journal and saw a reading made for a person whom I have lost sight of for today. At the moment I am not able to clear up the current situation with his status, but it may be possible in the future. I'll omit the circumstances the more because I do not know them.

The question was: Will X be on the edge of divorcing?
53.2.4.6 > 28

I assumed that yes, over time.

I would appreciate sharing your views on it friends.

If this is a direct answer about someone else's marriage it could just as much indicate the couple transcend their difficulties as it could indicate divorce. In fact I'd be more inclined to see it as transcending difficulties than ending the marriage given that progression of lines. In 53.2 the bond is there, in 53.4 it becomes somewhat estranged, in 53.6 the troublesome issues are left behind. All the difficulties took place in a time of difficulty and stress (28). The change patterns are yang 64, yin 63...a river crossing, a transition to more settled conditions.

It might mean divorce I suppose but I couldn't say that from this reading. Also if you are asking about someone else's marriage be aware you may not be getting a direct answer anyway, it may be addressing all the issues that gave rise to the question, ie your own relationship with this person. It is generally better to ask questions from your own POV then you will get clearer answers.

 

[Juliah]

Trojina, if possible, would you comment on 13.2 (the question was if the marriage would be saved)?

 

[altair139]

Altair I'm no learned scholar but I have been consulting for nearly 40 years and I know by now one must always scale the answer to the question. One can get 28 when one is upset...or feeling over whelmed emotionally. Yes it can indicate extreme feelings of stress but this need not always be a literal threat of immediate collapse of something. It might indicate possibility of injury on some occasions....or it can mean you need a holiday !

Ya and I did scaling too. The query was about "divorce", it's a big thing, a full stop of a marriage, thus you must scale it with the situation in the marriage, no? If a person asks about a divorce, meaning it's already bad enough to be considering it (in fact they are already living separately).
28 usually only comes out when you're under heavy stress or heavy emotional problem, yes. Anyway when it comes out it's best to do what the hex tells you to: leave what you're doing and move to something new. The collapsing might be just a consequence of staying on the wrong track, not literal meaning.

I know the outcome could be changed since 53 is a very slow process and nothing is absolute in the tree of possibilities. I still suspect that one of them has feeling for somebody else to finalize the possibility of divorce (from line 4 and 6), but of course this will need feedback.

 

[rosada]

I think we have an example here of how it's important to have clarity about the initial question. The I Ching doesn't always limit it's insights to what is asked, it often comments on the entire situation. So to clearly understand what the I Ching is referring to with Gradual Progress > Collapse we need to understand where the questioner is coming from. Guessing from what Juliah has said it appears to me that she is asking about an ex-boyfriend and wondering if he is truly happy in his marriage and if he will ever divorce? If that is the case 28.Collapse could be the IC advising her that her own imaginings of a relationship with him Gradually Developing are what need to Collapse. I may be totally off here but you see my point, we have a much better shot at accurately interpreting these symbols if we understand the question that inspired them.

As to the meaning of 13.2 for a question as to whether a marriage can be saved, it describes a situation where people have strong ties. These may not be the most comfortable connections - the people could be grouped together not because they like each other but because they know each other and each other's weaknesses and are all working on similar issues such as an AA meeting where everyone's an alcoholic - still the links are not easily severed.

 

[Juliah]

Guessing from what Juliah has said it appears to me that she is asking about an ex-boyfriend and wondering if he is truly happy in his marriage and if he will ever divorce?

He is not my ex-boyfriend. This man was my friend (or I saw things that way) who sometimes complained problems with his marriage. Accidentally, one time I saw how he behaved with his wife - I did not see that he felt warmth towards her. Unfortunately, I can't say anything about his wife, I am not acquainted with her. The only time when I saw her I liked her very much, I saw that she loved him a lot, turned to him and suffered from his distance.

It will be fine if they repair their relationship and stay together.

 

[Trojina]

Trojina, if possible, would you comment on 13.2 (the question was if the marriage would be saved)?

It's impossible to say. I personally think to understand an answer well you yourself generally need to be placed somewhere within the question. Answers come from the interaction of the I Ching with your own consciousness. If you are asking about someone else's marriage there needs to be some kind of reason why you are asking. I think the I Ching's answer may address that reason more than give you facts about someone else's marriage. So the question is one step removed from you, you don't appear to be in the question yet you must be or you wouldn't have asked. If the question is one step removed from you, you aren't even in the question, it is even further removed from us as people offering interpretations.

 

[Lavalamp]

Ya and I did scaling too. The query was about "divorce", it's a big thing, a full stop of a marriage, thus you must scale it with the situation in the marriage, no? If a person asks about a divorce, meaning it's already bad enough to be considering it (in fact they are already living separately).
28 usually only comes out when you're under heavy stress or heavy emotional problem, yes. Anyway when it comes out it's best to do what the hex tells you to: leave what you're doing and move to something new. The collapsing might be just a consequence of staying on the wrong track, not literal meaning.

I know the outcome could be changed since 53 is a very slow process and nothing is absolute in the tree of possibilities. I still suspect that one of them has feeling for somebody else to finalize the possibility of divorce (from line 4 and 6), but of course this will need feedback.

I have also worked with the iChing over 40 years Altair. The first rule of fortune telling is not to plant negative auspices in someone head, because people are impressionable and you do not want to be creating a situation, you are trying to see things as they are. In order to simplify, I have had to learn to put many preconceptions aside, how to step back and try to see the bigger picture. Usually the problem is being too close, we ask others largely because we need someone at a distance to take a look and give a fresh perspective.

I put the question and the reading side by side. The question here was if the marriage would end up at the edge of divorce. 28 refers directly I think, to what would bring a relationship to "the edge of divorce". This I see as "context," the question. 53 is about marriage, which is the other part of the question. The lines do not indicate that under stress, the couple breaks up. Other readings would be much more definite indicators of the "edge of divorce", for example 28.2.3.4.5.6>23. But this reading - not so bad. You have to have an idea of overall what the Yi could actually say, this had no splitting apart or 28.3.

A lot of times you are too certain telling people about bad auspices you protend when you are giving advice, Altair. If you want to help people you should dial it back a bit. even a real palm reader or tarot card reader, if they think someone is going to die, do not say it a client. It is too easy to plant a negative seed.

- LL

 

[altair139]

I have also worked with the iChing over 40 years Altair. The first rule of fortune telling is not to plant negative auspices in someone head, because people are impressionable and you do not want to be creating a situation, you are trying to see things as they are. In order to simplify, I have had to learn to put many preconceptions aside, how to step back and try to see the bigger picture. Usually the problem is being too close, we ask others largely because we need someone at a distance to take a look and give a fresh perspective.

I put the question and the reading side by side. The question here was if the marriage would end up at the edge of divorce. 28 refers directly I think, to what would bring a relationship to "the edge of divorce". This I see as "context," the question. 53 is about marriage, which is the other part of the question. The lines do not indicate that under stress, the couple breaks up. Other readings would be much more definite indicators of the "edge of divorce", for example 28.2.3.4.5.6>23. But this reading - not so bad. You have to have an idea of overall what the Yi could actually say, this had no splitting apart or 28.3.

A lot of times you are too certain telling people about bad auspices you protend when you are giving advice, Altair. If you want to help people you should dial it back a bit. even a real palm reader or tarot card reader, if they think someone is going to die, do not say it a client. It is too easy to plant a negative seed.

- LL

It's negative or not, it's in the hexagrams. You sometimes can just tell it's bad or not just by a glance when it's so obvious. I have done practices where the question is not given, but I have to be able to tell the hexagram is generally about what, and how the changing lines affect the hexagrams. You have to be able to do that first before judging it's bad or good. And I have said this many times: Negative insights sometimes can't be avoided. If you dare to ask a question, you have to be able to prepare for bad insights. If you don't, don't ask, you can't expect good fortune coming out of nowhere even after a series of mistakes. Plus negative insights are given so that something can be done to avoid further mistake, not to make people feel negative. For me, insights are insights, whether it's positive or not are not of my concern. I only read what's in front of me.

I have explained the lines many times too: "The goose found a rock, built its nest, then he got on a tree, found a flat branch and stayed for awhile before ascending to the cloud", after this takes place something collapsing will occur - hexagram 28. If this isn't a divorce due to an affair, I dont know what is. Again, I'm very certain of this outcome, but we will need feedback to see if I'm correct or not. I don't really care about how other people interpret to be honest, sometimes you have to use your own intuition and come up with your own reading, then compare with the results and learn from mistakes. In your example, 28.2.4.5.6. > 23, I don't see any differences, since the result is still a break up.

I don't mind giving negative insights, as I've always done. However there are certain negative insights I won't give, such as matter of life or death, innate ability/talents, abortion etc... Because this will greatly affect the tree of possibility of the questioners as it directly affects their belief system/decision making options. For matter such as businesses, marriage, it's fine to receive negative insight to prevent further mistakes. After all, if you receive a bad reading in fortune telling and you're already cancelling off the marriage, you're just not ready for it. If you're so easy to be planted with a negative seed, you shouldn't mess with fortune telling either, it's not something to comfort your soul. In fact the Yi could be so harsh it's so heart breaking for some.

 

[rosada]

The tricky thing here is that the question is not "Will the couple divorce?" but rather, "Will the couple be on the EDGE of divorce?" With that thought in mind I see the hexagrams as saying that the marriage is not easy and may very well at times dance on the edge, but that is all we can deduce from this answer as the question was not whether the couple would actually divorce.

53.2 Reads to me that the marriage got off to a good start, or at least that there was genuine good feeling and sincerity - there was the intention to mate for life.

53.4 Reads like a reference to what Juliah witnessed. It sounds like despite their good intentions this pair has just had a real hard time getting their marriage stable and in a position to grow and flourish. If there has been infidelity I don't think that is the cause of their problems. This line would suggest their problems are more due to having difficulty getting a place to live, jobs, just all the things a couple needs in order to build a life. (13.2 could also mean family history is an influence - did they have good role models for a happy marriage?)

53.6 As the sixth line refers to situations AFTER the main experience of the hexagram I read this line as saying the relationship endures "until death do we part."

28. Collapse could be referring to the surrounding influences and this makes me think that yes, this couple does at times wonder if they should stay together but as 53.6 suggests that in the end they feel the marriage is something they can be proud of, that makes me think they only consider splitting up.

The question wasn't "Will they divorce?" so I think we can't see that in this answer.

rosada

 

[Lavalamp]

I don't even think the 53.4 is necessarily so bad a line. It describes part of the course probably most young married couples go through. Think "Living On A Prayer" or something. It can bring a couple closer if they cling to their love for each other. But the lines describes a situation, not the condition of anyone's heart or the couple splitting apart.

I went through a failed adoption once, the Birth Mother took the child back. It broke my heart that I never got to change his diapers. I never minded changing diapers for my other kids, ever.

Whether the situation the line describes damages a relationship or not depends entirely upon what the people are made of, is my point. Some men cannot stand actually changing diapers, some people when they encounter money or career difficulties in life blame the person closest to them. Others might say "It's you and me against the world baby. I'm so glad to have you by my side going through this."

- LL