DIY Yi

[dobro p]

I reckon it's a great idea to do your own version of the Yi. Not for publication, but for yourself. If you use the oracle a lot, and if you have various versions, then you have favorites. Comparing and coordinating and selecting from those versions, you familiarise yourself with the text better (win) and you end up with a top favorite version that flows for you (win).

That's what I'm doing. I draw on Wilhelm, Huang, Karcher, Balkin (recently acquired), and a version of my own which I came up with years ago. I also consult a Chinese version in which each ideogram has a romanised subtext, so I know how many ideograms are in each line, and that helps me appreciate how this or that translator interpreted it. The name, the judgement, the image, and the lines - that's it. I was thinking of adding a paraphrase/summary of each bit, but then I decided I don't want that - I'd rather not have a finalised intellectual meaning for everything - I'd rather let the original images do their work in my mind.

DIY Yi. Do yours today!

 

[Liselle]

Interesting. Can you give us a sample hexagram (or line)?

 

[dobro p]

Interesting. Can you give us a sample hexagram (or line)?

Well, that would be so easy to do - satisfy your curiosity. Alternately, we could make this interesting. How about this: we Zoom and compare our respective versions? I see DIY Yi as a learning experience, and as you know, interacting with others is an enhancing factor in learning anything. Interested?

 

[remod]

DIY Yi. Do yours today!

That's very cool! I started to do the same some time ago (but stopped after few hexagrams) mainly drawing from Whilelm, volume two of Bradford Hatcher literal translation, and Takashima Ekidan (plus some other occasional looks at other translations I have around).

Exactly the same motivation as yours: I wanted to use it as an opportunity to focus on each hexagram and try to get more insight on the text.
I simply do not have the time to work on it but I'll continue it one day (hopefully).

Even if you don't publish it, I, for one, would be very interested in looking at what you have come up with. If you ever decide to share it, please let me know.

 

[Liselle]

Well, that would be so easy to do - satisfy your curiosity. Alternately, we could make this interesting. How about this: we Zoom and compare our respective versions? I see DIY Yi as a learning experience, and as you know, interacting with others is an enhancing factor in learning anything. Interested?

Ha ha! Well, I don't really have a DIY Yi (or maybe at least not yet). Unless a collection of notes and so on would count. (Notes which are in bad need of organizing ... )

 

[Trojina]

I reckon it's a great idea to do your own version of the Yi. Not for publication, but for yourself. If you use the oracle a lot, and if you have various versions, then you have favorites. Comparing and coordinating and selecting from those versions, you familiarise yourself with the text better (win) and you end up with a top favorite version that flows for you (win).

I already have my own version, probably so do many others, in my own head. I don't run to books all the time to think about readings. If one has the Resonance Journal one can pretty much make/write/create one's own Yi almost by default since you have all your readings there with your notes, with various translations and you can easily see all the times you had a certain cast and so on. That way you can discern your own patterns/themes with a line. Other people's commentaries are helpful but they aren't 'you shaped' and they won't always fit. What I least like to see is people hanging on to a particular commentary to make it fit instead of going back to the translation itself to find it's fit for them, at that moment in their lives. That's the beauty of Yi, a completely 'bespoke' fit.

I see the banner for the Resonance Journal says 'Journalling to uncover your deeper story' which really is what a DIY Yi is, uncovering your story

Also Wikiwing is a very large growing compilation of people's 'own version' of Yi though, bits and pieces of it anyway.

I reckon it's a great idea to do your own version of the Yi. Not for publication, but for yourself. If you use the oracle a lot, and if you have various versions, then you have favorites. Comparing and coordinating and selecting from those versions, you familiarise yourself with the text better (win) and you end up with a top favorite version that flows for you (win).

I like your idea I'm just saying it's already in progress in many ways through various avenues that make it much easier for a person to create their own version through 'uncovering the deeper story'. And by 'version' I don't mean, and I don't think you mean, an entirely different Oracle but one's own story with Yi, one's own commentary I guess for one's own use. In Resonance Journal there is a drop down box to see Hilary's, Brad's and LiSe's translation and I believe one can add one's own to that (not sure Liselle will know) and you can add other translations and commentaries. Without journalling in some form I imagine is quite hard to organise readings/connections and such in order to make a 'DIY Yi'.

I do think many people already have got a DIY Yi, their own personal approach and array of associations.

That's what I'm doing. I draw on Wilhelm, Huang, Karcher, Balkin (recently acquired), and a version of my own which I came up with years ago. I also consult a Chinese version in which each ideogram has a romanised subtext, so I know how many ideograms are in each line, and that helps me appreciate how this or that translator interpreted it. The name, the judgement, the image, and the lines - that's it. I was thinking of adding a paraphrase/summary of each bit, but then I decided I don't want that - I'd rather not have a finalised intellectual meaning for everything - I'd rather let the original images do their work in my mind.

I don't think 'finalised intellectual meaning' is ever going to work with Yi as it's just not like that is it - it doesn't stay still, no one can ever stop at a generalised 'this is what it means' as querent and context ever vary. But you aren't just comparing commentaries but translations and that's a whole other ball game, quite different to what I was saying about journalling although journalling would be very useful for translation notes too.

 

[dobro p]

I mentioned I'd got Balkin recently. He walks in Wilhelm's footsteps very often for his version. I also mentioned that I did my own version years ago. I was heavily influenced by Karcher then. I didn't like his version, because it has a painful lack of flow, but I loved his approach. Unsurprisingly, my version lacked flow as well. This time, the remit is: do a version that flows, that has an immediately apparent meaning. There's only one way to do that, and it turns on *understanding* the text. (Hence my text comparison approach.) But sometimes, as you know, you're presented with a very thorny choice - you can see how other translators struggled with a particular bit when you compare versions - and that is where I see the value of a discussion with other like-minded seekers. (Hence my offer of a Zoomer with Liselle, and any other interested party.) Not for the purposes of producing a joint version, but for a joint discussion.

"Without journalling in some form I imagine is quite hard to organise readings/connections and such in order to make a 'DIY Yi'."

Journalling is helpful, but text comparison is hugely useful, and often enough. You can see it used very convincingly in the analysis of Bible passages, for instance - we now know far more about Mary Magdalene, for instance, simply because somebody stacked up parallel gospel accounts beside each other and compared them with an intelligent eye and an honest heart.

 

[dobro p]

Ha ha! Well, I don't really have a DIY Yi (or maybe at least not yet). Unless a collection of notes and so on would count. (Notes which are in bad need of organizing ... )

A collection of notes would be enough for a discussion - it means you've thought about it. It's not like you're coming to it cold.

 

[Trojina]

Journalling is helpful, but text comparison is hugely useful, and often enough. You can see it used very convincingly in the analysis of Bible passages, for instance - we now know far more about Mary Magdalene, for instance, simply because somebody stacked up parallel gospel accounts beside each other and compared them with an intelligent eye and an honest heart.

But there were only 4 of those whereas the number of translations possible multiply with every person who chooses to get into it. Ahem often I suspect hellbent on uncovering a meaning no one thought of before which doesn't make it correct. Also I don't think you'll get a 'winner', maybe that's not your aim but each translation has drawbacks and advantages. I think one finds which is closest through one's own experience, not that that can be wholly relied upon but it's a factor. Take 41.1 I know that can be translated very differently and so understood very differently. My way into that is that is to ponder quite deeply on the tenor of the experience of my own readings where I cast the line.

I mentioned I'd got Balkin recently. He walks in Wilhelm's footsteps very often for his version. I also mentioned that I did my own version years ago. I was heavily influenced by Karcher then. I didn't like his version, because it has a painful lack of flow, but I loved his approach. Unsurprisingly, my version lacked flow as well. This time, the remit is: do a version that flows, that has an immediately apparent meaning. There's only one way to do that, and it turns on *understanding* the text. (Hence my text comparison approach.) But sometimes, as you know, you're presented with a very thorny choice - you can see how other translators struggled with a particular bit when you compare versions - and that is where I see the value of a discussion with other like-minded seekers. (Hence my offer of a Zoomer with Liselle, and any other interested party.) Not for the purposes of producing a joint version, but for a joint discussion.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'flow' here? In terms of writing, of beauty of writing, Wilhelm wins over everyone hands down IMO. I do believe Wilhelm truly connected with the voice of Yi because he seems to bring readings to life, to give feeling to them. He doesn't just translate as chop chop meaningless broken bits of pottery he tries to give it sense, he tries to show the pot. However the downside, if it can be called that, is that he adds in a fair amount that was never there which skews the meaning.

I don't think any member here has ever publicly suggested a Zoom so you get the prize for initiative there !

 

[Liselle]

A collection of notes would be enough for a discussion

Er, well...I'll think about it.

Come to think of it - Hilary's already-existing and highly successful Well Gatherings might serve this purpose. If people have readings they take priority, but sometimes no one does and then a hexagram is chosen for discussion, and what you're talking about might fit nicely with that (if I understand). It's essentially a discussion of people's ideas and experiences with the hexagram.

You'd have to join Change Circle, though (for a few hours yet on special lifetime offer! - click that link for details and the sign-up link - or WikiWing which starts at only £1 per month.

In Resonance Journal there is a drop down box to see Hilary's, Brad's and LiSe's translation and I believe one can add one's own to that

You can! I've played with it enough to see it's quite nice to have one's notes and other translations and so forth pop up, magically customized to the reading you just cast. ("Magically" of course involves data entry and setting-up and all that.)

Here is the page from Hilary's Resonance Journal Knowledgebase which explains it, with screenshots.

Entering a new Yijing translation

Translations you add will be stored under ‘Yijing translations’ in the entry tree. Each translator is added as a sub-folder of the ‘Yijing translations’ folder, with hexagrams as the sub-folders of each translator, and lines as sub-entries of each hexagram. To enter the translation and commentary a

www.onlineclarity.co.uk

 

[Liselle]

I don't think any member here has ever publicly suggested a Zoom so you get the prize for initiative there !

Yes indeed...I don't mean to say otherwise.

It could be, I don't know, that what you have in mind isn't much like a hexagram discussion Well Gathering.

 

[Trojina]

It sounds like Dobro wants to discuss comparisons between translations and that he knows a fair bit about it - you know all those scholarly bits like characters and ideograms and what have you that I know nothing about. So Dobro probably needs people who understand all that or who are interested in it.

 

[dobro p]

Au contraire. No specialised knowledge required. Simply compare a mere handful of your favorite versions and then, based on your understanding of what they were all driving at, come up with a version of your own that, hand on heart, you humbly believe says it best. So, for instance, I like Wilhelm, but I don't admire the 'skew' you mentioned. I admire what Karcher's done, but his version is painful to read. I love Huang, but I think that 'successful' is a much more felicitous rendering than his 'smooth and prosperous' (even though I appreciate what he's getting at).

And no, I'm not banging the drum to get something going here. My original post described this process as a solo effort (DIY = do it yourself!). But I understand that whenever two or three gather together in the name of something, the group dynamic comes up with things you'd never consider on your own. Plus, it's fun. The offer stands, but it's a casual offer - it occurred to me after the original post.

 

[Liselle]

you know all those scholarly bits like characters and ideograms

Just to be clear, I must thoroughly disclaim "knowing" anything of the sort. I've looked into it a little, usually when dragged by the nose by Hilary's blog posts and imagery classes and so on. I'm coming around to realizing it's probably important, pretty reluctantly since I've never had much interest in languages. But that is emphatically All.

 

[Trojina]

I haven't said you do - have you misunderstood...I actually didn't mean 'you know' as in you Liselle know but the other way like when explaining something and one says 'it's like this, you know when it's xyz it's xyz'.....it's an expression when one is trying to explain something


I'd never have known if it weren't for this forum how completely misunderstood it is possible to be. I can see how you'd read I was talking about you but I wasn't.

 

[Trojina]

Au contraire. No specialised knowledge required. Simply compare a mere handful of your favorite versions and then, based on your understanding of what they were all driving at, come up with a version of your own that, hand on heart, you humbly believe says it best.

What it says best wholly depends on the context, there is no meaning without that so you'd have to talk about it in context of actual readings.

 

[dobro p]

I respectfully disagree. The text and the application of the text can usefully be separated.

 

[Trojina]

Certainly there are those who do have an interest in the text alone, translators and those of that inclination towards the scholarly/academic/historical/linguistic)?) aspects of Yi. They are very useful to those like me who have zero interest in it. I can use their understandings and theories to help me make sense of readings though I'll always be weighing it against my own sense of the line or whatever.

Whilst a translation can be accurate or inaccurate and only scholars can really judge that and I'm not one of them the actual meaning to a person in their own reading is dependent on them and their situation so there really doesn't exist any central stand alone meaning to any line without that. It just doesn't make sense really to say 63.3 'means' this or '15 means that' when what it means will depend on the question. There is however the meaning of the actual translation as an item of study/interest yes and that's for those who have studied/are interested in it. It would need some background knowledge if you were discussing for example how this or that radical changed a meaning of a character etc etc. You've spoken of ideograms well I know nothing of those nor do many who post here so I'd think you would need people who had some basic interest and understanding in translation surely?

 

[Liselle]

I haven't said you do - have you misunderstood...I actually didn't mean 'you know' as in you Liselle know but the other way like when explaining something and one says 'it's like this, you know when it's xyz it's xyz'.....it's an expression when one is trying to explain something


I'd never have known if it weren't for this forum how completely misunderstood it is possible to be. I can see how you'd read I was talking about you but I wasn't.

Cleared up now - I understand, and yes it can go either way, and also yes, plain writing on a page makes things difficult sometimes.

 

[dobro p]

Certainly there are those who do have an interest in the text alone, translators and those of that inclination towards the scholarly/academic/historical/linguistic)?) aspects of Yi. They are very useful to those like me who have zero interest in it. I can use their understandings and theories to help me make sense of readings though I'll always be weighing it against my own sense of the line or whatever.

Whilst a translation can be accurate or inaccurate and only scholars can really judge that and I'm not one of them the actual meaning to a person in their own reading is dependent on them and their situation so there really doesn't exist any central stand alone meaning to any line without that. It just doesn't make sense really to say 63.3 'means' this or '15 means that' when what it means will depend on the question. There is however the meaning of the actual translation as an item of study/interest yes and that's for those who have studied/are interested in it. It would need some background knowledge if you were discussing for example how this or that radical changed a meaning of a character etc etc. You've spoken of ideograms well I know nothing of those nor do many who post here so I'd think you would need people who had some basic interest and understanding in translation surely?

I think I've made my meaning in this thread clear enough for it to be understood by anyone who wants to understand it. So what I've got to say at this point is: This is a completely interesting and doable way to get more deeply into the Yi. I think the objections you raise (and you have raised a lot!) have got more to do with your attitude than my idea.

 

[Trojina]

Objections? I have no objections at all to your idea, you seem to have taken offence where really none has been intended at all. What I have written weren't 'objections' as far as I was concerned I was just looking at the idea/exploring around I don't know what has offended you really. I wasn't trying to dismiss anything you have written.

I've replied here in a genuine way without any ill intent whatsoever and so saying there's an issue with my attitude is puzzling to me. Can you quote where you find the problem with my attitude? Otherwise I'm really in the dark as to your meaning?

 

[dobro p]

Zero offence here. I think my idea is really straightforward, really simple. By 'attitude' I mean 'how you're viewing and evaluating it', not 'belligerence or ill intent'.

 

[dobro p]

Increase

Increase

Beneficial to have a goal

Beneficial to cross the great river



Image

Wind and thunder

The image of Increase

Thus the real person follows the good when he sees it

Corrects his faults when he finds them



Lines

Initial nine

Beneficial to undertake great deeds

Supreme good fortune

No fault



Second six

Someone increases him

Ten pairs of tortoise shells cannot oppose it

Constant rectitude: good fortune

King makes offering to Lord of Heaven: good fortune



Third six

Increase via unfortunate events

No fault

Sincerely walk central path

Report to lord with jade tablet



Fourth six

Walking central path

Reporting to lord

Lord follows

Beneficial to use this in moving the capital



Fifth nine

With sincerity and a kind heart

No need to ask

Supreme good fortune

With sincerity, kindness is power



Top nine

Absolutely no increase

Maybe striking him

Not keeping heart steady

Misfortune

 

[dobro p]

I'm changing 42 up a bit. (I know, I know - already! - but that's the advantage of doing your own Yi.) I'm replacing the word 'rectitude' with 'integrity'. For me, there's a feeling of social acceptability and propriety with 'rectitude', but 'integrity' has a clear connotation for me of being true to oneself.

 

[dobro p]

Started with 'rectitude'. Shifted to 'integrity'. Now I'm on 'steadfastness'. lol

 

[rosada]

I wonder if there could be a special spot for sharing our own ideas and IC interpretations for each line over on WikiWing? Or maybe that’s already available - I think we have felt only Hilary should post the translations and interpretations and we usually limit our postings to the “Experiences” area. Maybe we should be bold and contribute our interpretation ideas too.

 

[dobro p]

I think the lack of response to your question is the answer to it, Rosada. ;-)

I'm getting a lot out of this exercise, though. It's got me asking, again and again: 'Well, what does this term mean? What does this hexagram mean? What does this line mean?' This is a different approach than a consultation. When I consult the I Ching, my focus is primarily on my intuition and emotion in response to the text - what comes up in my mind as I consider the text in the context of the question (and in the context of subsequent and related questions that are suggested by the enquiry). It's a meditation that invites and watches for the arrival of the unknown in consciousness in relation to the known question. But doing my own version of the oracle puts an equivalent focus on the text itself, and this is having two results. First, it's enriching the consultation - it takes much longer, and the longer focus gives the mind a bigger opportunity to notice something. Second, it's developing my conscious understanding of and relationship with the Yi. I don't know if this makes me a more effective oracle consulter, but it's certainly fun and satisfying. Update: in addition to coming up with a rendering of the decision, the image, and the lines, I've started doing what I'm calling the 'idea', which is not a commentary so much as a short one-phrase or one-sentence summary of the hexagram meaning in my own language. Really useful.

Sidebar: This forum is a *very* valuable place to trawl for ideas.

To come back to your Wikiwing question: That's a question for Wikiwing members, of course. I'm not a member, but if I were, I'd be interested in what you're talking about - which seems like, not so much a DIY Yi as a DIO (do it ourselves) Yi. But in the absence of that, there's this public forum, custom designed for a group of people to talk about this stuff!

 

[rosada]

Why haven’t you signed up for WikiWing???

 

[dobro p]

Why haven’t you signed up for WikiWing???

That's an entirely different question, of course.

The short answer is that, because I've never participated in it (or any other of the behind-the-scenes offerings here) I have no experience of what it is or how it works, so I don't know if it's for me. I tend to take a DIY approach, lol.

 

[remod]

Increase
Increase
Beneficial to have a goal
Beneficial to cross the great river

I'm more inclined to use "worthwhile" rather than "beneficial".
It seems to me that it suggests that it is something that is "worthy" to do in itself, not just becuse it will bring benefits.
Whilelm seems softer with "it furthers", in the Takashima Ekidan is rendered strongly as "advantageous". Bradford Hatcher uses "worthwhile" and it resonated with me better.

Am I biased by my poor English?