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Does consulting the I Ching change your destiny?

Prufrock

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Today somebody told me: “by asking a question and getting an answer you are voluntarily willing to give up on what you are meant to receive in exchange for that which you receive.” about the I Ching. Is there any truth to that? Have you heard that before?
 

Freedda

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Today somebody told me: “by asking a question and getting an answer you are voluntarily willing to give up on what you are meant to receive in exchange for that which you receive.” about the I Ching. Is there any truth to that? Have you heard that before?
And whom, pray tell, told you that? It sounds like a load of new-age hogwash to me.

I mean, think of doing a reading as you would seeking counsel from your priest or from a counselor. Does that 'change your destiny'? Well, I suppose it would if you took their advice, but your destiny might also change if you didn't take it, right? So why should consulting the Yi be any different?

Also, we just might be changing our destiny with every action we take and every decision we make (sounds like a Police song!), we just don't know, do we - since if it changed, we'd never know it!

And it's almost like saying, 'that song, or poem, or that piece of art, or lotto ticket ... changed my life' but we only know that after the fact, if at all. So, just ask the Yi and let destiny take care of itself.

Best, D.
 

rosada

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More like it causes you to recognize your destiny, like it allows you to see your situation from a different, higher perspective. Before you consult the I Ching you might think, "Geeze seems like I'm destined to always be cooking and cleaning" but after working with the I Ching - maybe flat out asking, "What is my destiny, what am I drawn to?" - you then start seeing connections and patterns you hadn't recognized before. Perhaps you see that when you are cooking and cleaning it's giving you an opportunity to listen to music. So from then on you start to listen to music more consciously and you come to realize your destiny is not to so much to cook and clean but to enjoy music. This may cause you to widen your awareness,. it will allow you to see choices that are more in line with your destiny because now you know what draws you. For example if you know now that music is your destiny you will trust that by allowing it into your life you will be provided for. You won't be afraid to quit your boring job or settle for youtube recordings. Like a horse that knows how to find water, you will find you always come up with the money to go to the concert or maybe even make music yourself. You may feel you have altered your destiny but you didnt really alter your destiny, you found it.
 

jukkodave

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Prufrock said:
Today somebody told me: “by asking a question and getting an answer you are voluntarily willing to give up on what you are meant to receive in exchange for that which you receive.” about the I Ching. Is there any truth to that? Have you heard that before?
Sounds like a good question to me.

The question I think would have to be what you thought, you are "meant" to receive means.
Can you change your destiny or is it set in some way.
What is destiny in the first place.

Perhaps if the person that "told" you had explained what they meant by "giving up" and "meant" that might clarify what they meant. Were they even referring to destiny and free will.

Dave
 

Gmulii

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It really depends on what you call destiny.
In Chinese metaphysical schools, what is often call "the five arts" and Yi Jing is viewed as important part of them, there are 3 types of "luck" considered. We can relate them to the 3 lines on each trigram and to other stuff...

Heaven Luck - You can't change that with Yi Jing. Its influences from Heaven, people that learn to do destiny readings in that parts of Asia are highly respected and often even more highly payed, but it can take years to master it. And it isn't influenced by Yi Jing.

Mans Luck - That are our choices, believes and stuff like that. In general the idea is that if we support people when they deserve it, if we help when help is needed etc. that type of luck improves. While selfishness, greed and stuff like that usually decreases it. That is very influenced by Yi Jing, as our choices can change if we know more about the situations and experiences we go through. Something that divination reading can provide.

Earths Luck - This is the environment. Of course, someone born in a prison will have very different influences then someone born in a palace. There is more to it, however, as in that parts of Asia its viewed as connected to Feng Shui as well. And that is more then just placement, the flow of Qi in a house, or town creates the events people go through on that level. So one item(we call them "cures") in the correct place, can change everything very fast. Of course, that is also influenced by Yi Jing, as even if you have no idea about Feng Shui, you can always ask Yi Jing if you should move to other house or even country and that will change the environment you are in and its influence.


So can Yi Jing chance our destiny... People usually would call "destiny" what here is called "Heavens Luck". That won't change, your 8 characters will stay your 8 characters and that is what we will read when doing destiny reading with bazi.
Parts of your overall "luck" can change somewhat. But not everything and not in the way most people in the west think.
 

jukkodave

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It really depends on what you call destiny.
In Chinese metaphysical schools, what is often call "the five arts" and Yi Jing is viewed as important part of them, there are 3 types of "luck" considered. We can relate them to the 3 lines on each trigram and to other stuff...
Heaven Luck - You can't change that with Yi Jing. Its influences from Heaven, people that learn to do destiny readings in that parts of Asia are highly respected and often even more highly payed, but it can take years to master it. And it isn't influenced by Yi Jing.
Heavens luck, perhaps just another way of saying, fundamental underlying principles and ordinances of heaven.

Mans Luck - That are our choices, believes and stuff like that. In general the idea is that if we support people when they deserve it, if we help when help is needed etc. that type of luck improves. While selfishness, greed and stuff like that usually decreases it. That is very influenced by Yi Jing, as our choices can change if we know more about the situations and experiences we go through. Something that divination reading can provide.
Mans Luck, perhaps just another way of saying, that which we create ouselves, not being based on the fundamentals of nature or heaven, entirely possible to be the illusion, self lying and self deception that Neuropsuchology recognises as at the core of most of what human beings think and do.

Earths Luck - This is the environment. Of course, someone born in a prison will have very different influences then someone born in a palace. There is more to it, however, as in that parts of Asia its viewed as connected to Feng Shui as well. And that is more then just placement, the flow of Qi in a house, or town creates the events people go through on that level. So one item(we call them "cures") in the correct place, can change everything very fast. Of course, that is also influenced by Yi Jing, as even if you have no idea about Feng Shui, you can always ask Yi Jing if you should move to other house or even country and that will change the environment you are in and its influence.
Earths luck, perhaps an aspect of nature that might be just the randomness of life, if there are no underlying principles and no reason or purpose for life, or the manifiestation of something like,that we get what we need or deserve.

But thanks for the clarification of the recognition of Heavens luck, making the fundamental underlying principles intrinsic to everything.

Dave
 

Gmulii

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But thanks for the clarification of the recognition of Heavens luck, making the fundamental underlying principles intrinsic to everything.
Yea, I guess... But it isn't that "objective" in there, as it can be read by many different schools and systems. The 8 characters(bazi) that we use is the most popular for the western world, but there are many more, from Purple Star, Da Liu Ren(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da_Liu_Ren) to even stuff like Mian Xiang for facereading(where they use 100 points on the face that can follow someones destiny in theory, we never got it to work in practice with the literature we had).

And each of them will have entirely different approach to reading destiny, all will use 5E, but different ways, yet as a Master of these arts said some years ago - the resulting events and general life reading in all of them have to be the same, or you have made a mistake along the way.

So while there seem to be many "principles" and ways to read them, even though all include 5E, Yin/Yang and other of the base components, the destiny itself is similar. Suggesting that setting the principles as the "objective" thing underlying everything can be misleading, as that is not how they view it, the principles are only used to point the master that is reading to what will happen.

Rationality and coherence, are not sought there, accuracy is, though.
So somewhat the idea that the important moment is the "inspiration" that the master gets while reading whatever system they practice. The objectivity, rationality or coherence of the system doesn't play a role here, only the inspiration does, as that is what is bringing the valuable info in the forefront of the persons mind.
 

jukkodave

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And each of them will have entirely different approach to reading destiny, all will use 5E, but different ways, yet as a Master of these arts said some years ago - the resulting events and general life reading in all of them have to be the same, or you have made a mistake along the way.
A good point and yet again confirming that coherence is an important factor. Coherence being the manifestation of fundamentals and underlying principles. No coherence then not all the same and mistakes.

So while there seem to be many "principles" and ways to read them, even though all include 5E, Yin/Yang and other of the base components, the destiny itself is similar. Suggesting that setting the principles as the "objective" thing underlying everything can be misleading, as that is not how they view it, the principles are only used to point the master that is reading to what will happen.
But they dont include 5E, because you were unable to actually demmonstrate that 5E had and foundational coherent validity.
Forget about "objectivity" that is only one perspective on any given thing, if you dont set underlying principles as the guide then there is no coherence and as you already state the mistakes that result in the lack of rationality appear. If you dont base what you do on underlying principles then they are based on arbitrary measures.

Rationality and coherence, are not sought there, accuracy is, though.
But obviously you cannot have "accuracy" it there is no rationality or coherence. As you have already said above. How would you measure if something was accurate unless by measures such as coherence, rationality, the manifiestation, knowledge or understanding of underlying principles.

So somewhat the idea that the important moment is the "inspiration" that the master gets while reading whatever system they practice. The objectivity, rationality or coherence of the system doesn't play a role here, only the inspiration does, as that is what is bringing the valuable info in the forefront of the persons mind.
Objectivity is not relevant here, being part of a subjective/objective complimentary duality where both parts have to be considered to get the entire picture.
Waht then is inspiration of the master. It is either the recognition and the manifestation of findamental undrlying principles or it is the "subjective" half of the complementary duality, so not a complete picture. Perhaps not a "master " at all. Unless you consider a master to be someone that knows the "language" of the method better than anyone else. I would say that a master is one that has knowing, understanding and knowledge of the underlying principles of Yin and Yang, of 5E, good luck with that one as I doubt they would have any more luck in creating a rational and coherent explanatin than anyone else has been able to ever do, and whatever you mean by other "base components", which are either fundamental underlying principles or they are not.

Dave
 

Gmulii

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But obviously you cannot have "accuracy" it there is no rationality or coherence. As you have already said above. How would you measure if something was accurate unless by measures such as coherence, rationality, the manifiestation, knowledge or understanding of underlying principles.
Accuracy of a destiny reading system is very easy to measure. You look for the events in that persons life and you figure out how much was predicted.

For me, personally, I'm considering learning a new style if practitioner that I see, gets correctly how many marriages someone had(if any) in 5 year periods in their life and some estimate on when, based only on their 8 characters(so hour of birth and gender, mostly).
And with my favorite style of reading I have seen Masters I know, that have given even stuff like the year of first marriage, the year it broke off etc. again just by a post containing the hour of birth and gender in a forum.

So measuring accuracy in destiny reading system is very easy if the system is specific enough. If its unclear and general, then there is no measuring accuracy, as there is nothing to measure accuracy on.

About the other stuff... I can't really comment much on it.
It seems it goes way beyond the 5E, as I can see the baffling battle for "rationality and coherence" is going on on many fronts at the same time. And with very limited success.

Suggesting that the idea that "rational" is something we all share, is even more far away from the truth, as clearly what you view as rational doesn't seem to be shared by most members here...

And if rational by definition is something we all share, while what you say you view is rational is something we clearly are not sharing... Then either rationality isn't universal, or what you think is rational isn't.
 

jukkodave

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Accuracy of a destiny reading system is very easy to measure. You look for the events in that persons life and you figure out how much was predicted.
For me, personally, I'm considering learning a new style if practitioner that I see, gets correctly how many marriages someone had(if any) in 5 year periods in their life and some estimate on when, based only on their 8 characters(so hour of birth and gender, mostly).
And with my favorite style of reading I have seen Masters I know, that have given even stuff like the year of first marriage, the year it broke off etc. again just by a post containing the hour of birth and gender in a forum.
So measuring accuracy in destiny reading system is very easy if the system is specific enough. If its unclear and general, then there is no measuring accuracy, as there is nothing to measure accuracy on.
All very well, but scientific based research on such things demonstrates that we "pick" the bits that support that it is accurate and ognore the parts that dont. Just randomness will find enough times to say that almost anything works. But unless one includes ALL the data, one is just cherry picking the bits to suit. Unless one includes all the times they get it wrong that is no validation at all.


About the other stuff... I can't really comment much on it.
It seems it goes way beyond the 5E, as I can see the baffling battle for "rationality and coherence" is going on on many fronts at the same time. And with very limited success.
It is not a "battle" it is a discussion. Of course it goes way beyond 5E, everything is connected or it wouldnt work except in our imaginations. Any limited success seems to be that everyone is ignoring any requirements for rationality and coherence.

Suggesting that the idea that "rational" is something we all share, is even more far away from the truth, as clearly what you view as rational doesn't seem to be shared by most members here...
But it is what rational and coherent mean. It is the combination of both that excludes the limitations of either separately. It is not about the limitations of our understanding, it is about how rationality and coherence expose the limitatioins of our knowledge and understanding how it often reveals that we "believe" in things with nothing to support or validate those beliefs apart from other beliefs. But that would not be a rational or coherent thing to do. If we were rational and coherent we would have no problems discussing the details of any specifics that might be raised.

And if rational by definition is something we all share, while what you say you view is rational is something we clearly are not sharing... Then either rationality isn't universal, or what you think is rational isn't.
Or that rational and coherent mean what they mean, that we do all share that as underlying qualities , but we are not consciously aware of that. Rationality and coherence are manifestations of a commonality that unites us all. It may not make logical sense initially but furhter eexamination of the details and the specifics, the eliminatin of contradictions and discrepancies reveals whether it really isrational and coherent or just appears to be. It is a mark, a measure , a standard. If the measure is not shared then the mark, standard or measure is not rational and coherent. But it doesnt mean that rationality and coherence have ceased to exist just because not everyone agrees.

Dave
 

Gmulii

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All very well, but scientific based research on such things demonstrates that we "pick" the bits that support that it is accurate and ognore the parts that dont.
Link some of that research then. : )
 

moss elk

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Today somebody told me: “by asking a question and getting an answer you are voluntarily willing to give up on what you are meant to receive in exchange for that which you receive.” about the I Ching. Is there any truth to that? Have you heard that before?
There is truth to it only in to the degree that what you are giving up is not knowing in exchange for knowing.
(self knowledge, external knowledge)
That was obviously not told to you by a diviner.
I think they were just playing schrodinger's cat. (btw, a diviner could tell you whether the cat was in the box or not.)

To answer the title question,
Consulting I Ching helps you make better choices,
better decisions, better paths, builds better character....
So, yes it changes your destiny by improving your life,
improving your trajectory: much of life is trajectory and momentum, we are always on a path, destiny is just where we end up. There is no predetermination.
 
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jukkodave

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There is truth to it only in to the degree that what you are giving up is not knowing in exchange for knowing.
(self knowledge, external knowledge)
That was obviously not told to you by a diviner.
I think they were just playing schrodinger's cat.

To answer the title question,
Consulting I Ching helps you make better choices,
better decisions, better paths, builds better character....
So, yes it changes your destiny by improving your life,
improving your trajectory: much of life is trajectory and momentum, we are always on a path, destiny is just where we end up. There is no predetermination.
Hi moss Elk

Thre are interesting beliefs. Do you have any validation for any of;
makes better choices, decisions, paths character, improves life.

Would that be because one is being guided by fundametal underlying principles of nature and the oridnances of heaven or because one beleives that is what is happening.

"Theres is no predermination."

Which I think is not really true. It is determined that we will all die, That might seem rather trite at first glance, but think about what really knowing and more importantly understanding of that predetermined fact makes in a persons life.

Is it even true anyway, There are those that know what is going to happen before it happen, people wont get on a plane and it crashes, it was known it was going to happen, it was therefore inevitable that those that remained on the plane were going to die and so were predetermined to die.
On the other hand if we have self determination we have our "destinies " in our own hands and you are obviously correct.
Isnt the explanation of the context so vitally important to understand what people really mean. Someone might take you statement about predermination in the first way and be arguing with you, someone else might take it the second way and be agreeing with you . But as you dont give the context of what you mean no one has any idea if they are agreeing or disagreeing.

Not disagreeing or picking a fight just trying to make the points of context and differentiation and the confusions that might arise if one doesnt declare what one means in terms of context and differentiation.

All the very best

Dave
 

jukkodave

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Another way of looking at the question of if ones destiny is changed would be to consider fromm what is known of Quantum Mechanics, where one cannot even measure and evaluate without changing everything.
We may not be able to "see " the changes that happen when we measure, for example, the velocity of a car, the amount of change relative to the size of the object is minimal, and so we say there is no change, but there still is.
But the more refined we get, the more we are dealing with vibrations and resonance then the greater that the change from any act of measurement is going to be observable.

By that criteria then the act of consulting the Yi and changing our though patterns would indicate that consulting the Yi does change ones destiny.

Assuming of course that we know and understand the differenc between free will and destiny and which part, or parts, may, or may not, be altered, if any parts can be altered at all or if there is no destiny beyond the natural cycle of birth and death, with everything in it just randomness with no purpose, reason or meaning. Not suggesting that is the case but in order to know and understand what destiny and free will are one would have to know the answer to that possibility.

But on the external level, in terms of influencing ourselves and so our environments, then the knowledge of the Quantum world and Physics would say, yes it does.

Dave
 

my_key

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Nevermind Quantum Mechanics or Physics. Never mind Karma, Greek Mythology or The Kaballah or any other ancient texts that spout on about free will and destiny and Gods will and free will etc etc etc check out " The Adjustment Bureau" on Netflix. Much more accessible and user friendly.

Of course this is only a film and may be totally wrong..... but then again who knows.
GOVERNMENT HEALTH WARNING: As with divining the Yi choosing to watch this film may change your destiny.

Good Luck
 

jukkodave

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Nevermind Quantum Mechanics or Physics. Never mind Karma, Greek Mythology or The Kaballah or any other ancient texts that spout on about free will and destiny and Gods will and free will etc etc etc check out " The Adjustment Bureau" on Netflix. Much more accessible and user friendly.Of course this is only a film and may be totally wrong..... but then again who knows. GOVERNMENT HEALTH WARNING: As with divining the Yi choosing to watch this film may change your destiny.Good Luck
Hilary. Are you going to delete or move posts that have not even a vague connection with the thread. At least I can democrats that my posts, even if most perhaps don't understand the connections are directly connected to the thread.Dave
 

my_key

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Hilary. Are you going to delete or move posts that have not even a vague connection with the thread. At least I can democrats that my posts, even if most perhaps don't understand the connections are directly connected to the thread.Dave
Dave

This post has a clear connection with the thread title " Does consulting with the I Ching change your destiny?" It gives a clear link to a piece of contemporary information that may help people to become more aware about the complexity of the concepts of destiny, and thereby potentially increase their understanding. This could then well afford them the opportunity to step towards finding their own answer to the title question.

I agree that sometimes it is difficult for people to 'understand the connections' in a post ( I can put my hands up to that) and in my experience coming at it from another angle can be a great assistance. That is what I offered.

Censorship, in the threads, of alternative routes to learning is not something that Clarity has promoted in the past and I hope common sense prevails here too.

Good Luck
 
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hilary

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In the interests of keeping this thread on topic, I'll continue this conversation with Jukkodave via private message.
 

jukkodave

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Link some of that research then. : )
Already detailed the sources of more than enough information to validate that we pick what we wish and ignore the facts. In my posts. But in case you missed it, or don't know anything about how the brain works, Cordelia Fine, A mind of its own, how the brain- how your brain distorts and deceived, is a good primer and gives lots of detailed references.Dave
 

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