Dream about son 16>2

[ontheroad]

I'm taking some homeopathic medicine to address my deep trauma and it results in dreaming.
My oldest son and I have never got along particularly well since he was about 14 - he's now 37.
He's quite abusive as well and at Christmas 2019 I'd had enough, walked out of a family Christmas day at his home without saying a word. 18 months later he sent me a letter telling me I was a complete dickhead and I need help.

In my mind there's no chance of reconciliation until he steps up and takes accountability.

In the Dream I kept seeing him on the same train as me but I changed carriages hoping he wouldn't see me. Eventually he did, walked up to me as if the fallout has never happened. Gave me something which I accepted (I don't remember what it was) and walked away, all the while smiling.

In real life I feel I'd like to write all my children a non- accusatory letter in regards to their awful behaviour to me over the years because when I was finally diagnosed with PTSD their behaviours got even worse.

I'm trying to line up a psychologist or similar to help me write the letter.

What was my dream about 16.4>2

I see this as reconcilling things in myself.

 

[moss elk]

In my mind there's no chance of reconciliation until he steps up and takes accountability.

He thinks the same thing about you.

What was my dream about 16.4>2

Making friends.
With your son.
Wouldn't that be nice?

That may not happen until there is a mutual accountability.
Which means, both parties acknowledge what they did wrong.
As the Elder, it is your responsibility to teach him how to do it, which means you must go first.

 

[ontheroad]

I wonder if suspect am pretty certain that it's obvious to some others oh dagnadit
He thinks the same thing about you.


Making friends.
With your son.
Wouldn't that be nice?

That may not happen until there is a mutual accountability.
Which means, both parties acknowledge what they did wrong.
As the Elder, it is your responsibility to teach him how to do it, which means you must go first.

I already have. Twice.
I sent all my children an email speaking of my own accountability.
No accusations.

 

[moss elk]

Now teach him how to forgive.

 

[ontheroad]

Now teach him how to forgive.

He's a Fundamentalist Christian Minister whom I'm assuming preaches about Forgiveness and loving thy mother unconditionally, regularly.
In his mission, to teach all others they're wrong and his beliefs are right, he took his wife and 3 children to Lebanon just a year ago to stay for 2 years to teach the Muslims about the word of God.
I think I've got no chance in Hell of teaching him anything about anything.

I would however, like him teach me about this passage in the bible

Robbn Miller on Instagram

72K likes, 637 comments - robbnwa on August 9, 2023

www.instagram.com

 

[Hans_K]

Hi Ontheroad,
The answer you received from the Yi contains a number of symbolic elements.
H16 is Thunder above Earth.
Trigram Earth below is the mother and Thunder above is the eldest son. Trigram Thunder is seen as the messenger of Heaven, the shock of sudden insight.
Interestingly, in your dream, the "message" is given by your eldest son (Thunder). Initially, you don't want to receive it and you flee from it.

but I changed carriages hoping he wouldn't see me.

It seems that here you are fleeing from the message and the messenger.
You see this reflected in trigram Thunder with a moving line. This is about things happening too fast or too soon, wanting to force things. Earth's advice is to be open, receive and let developments take their natural course.

Eventually he did, walked up to me as if the fallout has never happened. Gave me something which I accepted

I think the whole setting of your dream is also interesting. If you see the train journey as the journey of life, then I think you can get something out of that as well.

The nuclear hexagram of H16 is H39 Obstruction/Obstacle
So together, these 2 hexagrams describe the situation between you and your son.
Of course, the question is whether this dream really is about the situation with your son or that he is just a symbol in your dream and the message of the dream is about something beyond the situation with your son.

As I see it, the content of the "message" your son is handing over is represented by nuclear hexagram H39.
H39 is Water over Mountain.
The moving line at the 4th position in H16 can be seen in H39 at the 3rd and 5th positions.
Here there is strong clinging to things of the past, it is unwavering and stubborn and stands in the way of its own development. The moving line in the 3rd position tries to push through its own agenda, the line in the 5th position in Water feels like a victim of circumstances which prevents it from moving freely. Together they form an obstacle.

In both cases (H16 and H39), H2 is the related hexagram, the hexagram of letting yourself be guided, being open to growth, letting things take their natural course etc.

It might be useful for yourself to check what exactly was going on in the period before you had this dream. As mentioned earlier, this dream could be about the family situation, but it could also be that there is a deeper insight waiting that you are currently unwilling or unable to see.

The combination H16 <> H2 as I see it is hopeful though. If you can take H2's advice to yourself, then H16 shows a new development. It is the life force (Thunder) germinating the seed in the Earth, allowing a new cycle to begin.

This would be my interpretation and thoughts on your answer. As always, take what resonates and leave the rest

 

[Trojina]

I don't think Jesus did say to love your mother unconditionally, He said in Matthew 10

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]
37 Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it."

So that actually supports him in separating from you if necessary.


But I'm sure there is a deep desire on both your parts to reconnect and one day that's just going to be stronger than anything else, so strong it can't be doubted

'Source of enthusiasm.
Great possessions gained.
Do not doubt.
Friends are gathered together as a hair clasp gathers hair.'

In the Dream I kept seeing him on the same train as me but I changed carriages hoping he wouldn't see me. Eventually he did, walked up to me as if the fallout has never happened. Gave me something which I accepted (I don't remember what it was) and walked away, all the while smiling.

What was my dream about 16.4>2

I see this as reconcilling things in myself.

I believe sometimes dreams are real actual communication in the astral plane so take this dream as if it did happen, the meeting did happen on some level. He approached you while you hid but you did accept what he gave you

In my mind there's no chance of reconciliation until he steps up and takes accountability.

But he kind of did literally 'step up' in the dream didn't he ? Look at that, what was he doing in the dream, you'd changed carriages and he found you and what do you think he gave you?

Eventually he did, walked up to me as if the fallout has never happened. Gave me something which I accepted

And on some level some would say say the fallout never did happen because the love never stopped being there even when it was nigh on invisible. Doesn't necessarily mean you can reconcile at this point in time but I think the dream and the answer of 16.4 is pretty positive about the reality of reconciliation of some kind. I don't think it's a dream to dismiss but one to relive, to go back into, to keep in your pocket. You don't say how you felt in the dream but you do say he was smiling. Were you smiling?

 

[ontheroad]

Thank you Trojina, it's a lot to contemplate.
I've no interest in reconciling with him, hence possibly me changing carriages in the dream, except to be reunited with my grandchildren, who I miss very much and grieve the loss almost daily. In his letter reminding me of what a dickhead I am, he wrote, 'you cannot have a relationship with your grandchildren unless you have one with me'.
He doesn't seem to understand that his children have the right to a relationship with me regardless, and denying that, is a loss for them because we had a joyful, close relationship.
Me accepting whatever he gave me in the Dream, I always felt it was easier to accept his BS than fight against it, until I didn't. His smiling was typical of him knowing he was getting his own way.
How I felt in the Dream? I wish he'd just get lost.

 

[ontheroad]

It might be useful for yourself to check what exactly was going on in the period before you had this dream. As mentioned earlier, this dream could be about the family situation, but it could also be that there is a deeper insight waiting that you are currently unwilling or unable to see.

The combination H16 <> H2 as I see it is hopeful though. If you can take H2's advice to yourself, then H16 shows a new development. It is the life force (Thunder) germinating the seed in the Earth, allowing a new cycle to begin.

Thanks Hans_K
At this point I'm unable to see a deeper insight into what's going on for me.
Definitely a new cycle but I've no idea what that feels or looks like yet....I feel like I'm passing time with no direction to go.

 

[my_key]

Hi ontheroad

It does seem that your homeopathic treatment is doing its job, bringing to the surface old hurts and wounds that you are able to explore and reflect on. Dream messages are one of the most powerful ways in which what has been held deep within or even suppressed is made available for healing.

What was my dream about 16.4>2

I see this as reconcilling things in myself.

16 <> 2
'Providing for' through 'Yielding'

The dream, looking at it through the lens of 16, could be about you engaging with, for the first time in a long while, a direct joyous response in relation to relationship with your own power and virtue. It contains the seed of actualising a new connection that has long been broken in you. Perhaps this is contained in the gift your son gave you, which is as yet too nebulous to be recognised by you. Has he given something back to you that was previously taken away or is it something new? Thunder comes out of the Earth providing the spark for fertilising truth and rebirth.

More is yet to come, I fancy. particularly if you are able to give yourself to it and allow within you new realisations to grow. Hex 2 relates to openness and nurturing, so consider the message that the dream offers in this context. Yi advocates that when you see things in this way, you will be growing and enriching yourself and thus better supporting of everything in and around you. Providing for a healthier future.

16.4 and 2.4, perhaps, speak together of trusting the process and recognising what you are experiencing as growing pains. What you are seeking is now seeking you! (Remember, in the dream you could not hide away)There is no need to force anything here, especially as the deeper energy of 39 'Limping' moves you inextricably in a direction that encourages the removal of past impediments and so brings into being a life that is less fraught with old troubles.

... or there may be other interpretations that speak more loudly to you.

Good Luck

 

[rosada]

I see 16.4 as saying you have remarkable enthusiasm - energy and passion and the ability to draw people to you. Perhaps this is to encourage you that your connection with your grandchildren survives his obstruction. Perhaps the gift he gave you is a symbol of his (eventual?) willingness to let you have a relationship with the grandkids, or maybe a sign that he can’t keep them away.
So sorry you are having to go through this experience!

 

[ontheroad]

Thank you Rosada. I hope that's true and I'm hoping he has left Lebanon given what's happening in Israel.
Perhaps his time over there and all that's happening gives him a change in mindset about the fragility of relationships.

 

[ontheroad]

Thanks my_key.
As I reflect on my life as a whole at present I can definitely see I never had or can't remember having a positive connection with myself, always hiding myself away metaphorically speaking.
I'm housesitting in a house that's quite exposed, little to no real privacy, to the surrounding neighbours.
In the past I would have done anything and everything to hide myself away and hope noone could see me but now it's not even an issue.
So obvious how far I've come.

 

[dobro p]

In the Dream I kept seeing him on the same train as me

Trains are public transport, not private, so this issue is common to a lot of people, and not just you.

but I changed carriages hoping he wouldn't see me.

You're avoiding being visible and contactable here. Why, I wonder?

Gave me something which I accepted (I don't remember what it was) and walked away, all the while smiling.

You're accepting something from the son in you despite trying to avoid it.

What was my dream about 16.4>2

I see this as reconcilling things in myself.

The 'gathering friendly energies to you' in 16.4 is an echo of the dream image of accepting something from the dream son. The fact that the relating hex is 2 suggests 'accept this'.

 

[ontheroad]

You're avoiding being visible and contactable here. Why, I wonder?

Thanks dobro.....super interesting take on the dream

Honestly, I don't want anything to do with him or his brothers or a couple of other people in my life.
I decided a few months ago to put some distance between anyone who was only 'draining' me in some way. I shut down all my social media, saying I was on a Buddhist retreat for 3 months and only contactable in an emergency.
Prior to that I stopped spending time with or being in situations that I had to 'manage' someone or something and won't put up with any nonsense from anyone anymore.
Amazing how freeing life becomes when you do that.

 

[dobro p]

Thanks dobro.....super interesting take on the dream

Honestly, I don't want anything to do with him or his brothers or a few friends in my life.
I decided a few months ago to put some distance between anyone who was only 'draining' me in some way. I shut down all my social media, saying I was on a Buddhist retreat for 3 months and only contactable in an emergency.
Prior to that I stopped spending time with or being in situations that I had to 'manage' someone or something and won't put up with any nonsense from anyone anymore.
Amazing how freeing life becomes when you do that.

It's freeing, yes, but it impoverishes also. We're both individuals and social animals, and when you go all solo, you sacrifice the human interaction. Sometimes you need a break, I get it. But from where I'm sitting, it also means you need to put some work/study/practice into learning how to engage and interact with folk more positively. That's not meant to sound judgemental - I have zero interest in scoring points on you. It's just how I see it.

 

[ontheroad]

It's freeing, yes, but it impoverishes also. We're both individuals and social animals, and when you go all solo, you sacrifice the human interaction. Sometimes you need a break, I get it. But from where I'm sitting, it also means you need to put some work/study/practice into learning how to engage and interact with folk more positively. That's not meant to sound judgemental - I have zero interest in scoring points on you. It's just how I see it.

Happy to hear others perspectives and appreciate you taking the time to give it.
I still engage with 3 of my friends, one almost daily. I've only retreated from those who mainly only brought negatives to my life.
I did think of completely disappearing from all that I know because a lot of times people, particularly family, don't want to see the positive changes you've made in yourself. That's mostly why I won't wish to engage with my children unless and until.
20 years before my mother died, I did the same thing.
I have no regrets and sadly she died as a bitter old woman according to my oldest son. Not surprising, she never took accountability for her own BS.

 

[ontheroad]

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]
37 Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it."

I didn't understand what all this meant at first because I was reading as Hexagrams not from a Religious context.
I find this an incredibly sad way to do life.. .

 

[ontheroad]

I think that if I needed to be further accountable, he wouldn't be the one seeking me out and giving me something.
Nothing's changed in real life and no further dreams.

 

[Trojina]

My post must have bothered you as you have come back to it. When I quoted the bible passage be clear that it was only in response to the fact that the below isn't correct, it was not meant as comment on your particular question. You said

He's a Fundamentalist Christian Minister whom I'm assuming preaches about Forgiveness and loving thy mother unconditionally, regularly.

Whilst there is the commandment in the Old Testament to 'Honour thy father and thy mother' and that stands also Jesus said there would be divisions in families and that people would split with families to follow Him. So I'm only pointing out that it isn't true that Christian ministers would necessarily be preaching about loving one's mother unconditionally, above all else, if that means abandoning faith in Christ.

But that's just an academic point really not a comment on your particular situation.

I find this an incredibly sad way to do life.. .

Well there isn't much sadder in life than losing your son is there? You told us the dream and so on but are adamant you want no reconciliation although he has reached out.

I think that if I needed to be further accountable, he wouldn't be the one seeking me out and giving me something.

I can't possibly say who is accountable and who isn't, only people involved know that. I don't know what he's done or what he's said I only think he cannot be bracketed as with other people when you said

Honestly, I don't want anything to do with him or his brothers or a couple of other people in my life.
I decided a few months ago to put some distance between anyone who was only 'draining' me in some way. I shut down all my social media, saying I was on a Buddhist retreat for 3 months and only contactable in an emergency.

There you seem to be putting your sons in the same category anyone who is 'draining' you. But that strategy isn't going to work well realistically I don't think when it comes to one's own children is it? I say it's not going to work because you can't put them away in a box in your head because they will never leave, you will always think of them, they will always be there, you cannot realistically disown them since you bought them into the world . Having the same standards for them as you would a friend who pissed you off isn't going to work very well however many Buddhist retreats you attend.

If you have decided to disown him then it's your choice of course but if he has reached out now ....? You said 'he wouldn't be the one seeking me out' so he is seeking you out ? ...if he is seeking you out then it's all very sad indeed.

I noticed in another thread you wrote of becoming a child therapist but the therapy needed is for you and your own children isn't it ? No use trying to fix other people's kids when there's this massive tangle in your own life with your own kids which I'm sure is very painful but which I don't think you can really hide from forever nor spiritualise away.

 

[ontheroad]

My post must have bothered you as you have come back to it. When I quoted the bible passage be clear that it was only in response to the fact that the below isn't correct, it was not meant as comment on your particular question. You said


Whilst there is the commandment in the Old Testament to 'Honour thy father and thy mother' and that stands also Jesus said there would be divisions in families and that people would split with families to follow Him. So I'm only pointing out that it isn't true that Christian ministers would necessarily be preaching about loving one's mother unconditionally, above all else, if that means abandoning faith in Christ.

But that's just an academic point really not a comment on your particular situation.


Well there isn't much sadder in life than losing your son is there? You told us the dream and so on but are adamant you want no reconciliation although he has reached out.


I can't possibly say who is accountable and who isn't, only people involved know that. I don't know what he's done or what he's said I only think he cannot be bracketed as with other people when you said


There you seem to be putting your sons in the same category anyone who is 'draining' you. But that strategy isn't going to work well realistically I don't think when it comes to one's own children is it? I say it's not going to work because you can't put them away in a box in your head because they will never leave, you will always think of them, they will always be there, you cannot realistically disown them since you bought them into the world . Having the same standards for them as you would a friend who pissed you off isn't going to work very well however many Buddhist retreats you attend.

If you have decided to disown him then it's your choice of course but if he has reached out now ....? You said 'he wouldn't be the one seeking me out' so he is seeking you out ? ...if he is seeking you out then it's all very sad indeed.

I noticed in another thread you wrote of becoming a child therapist but the therapy needed is for you and your own children isn't it ? No use trying to fix other people's kids when there's this massive tangle in your own life with your own kids which I'm sure is very painful but which I don't think you can really hide from forever nor spiritualise away.

Your post didn't bother me as such, I just didn't understand it at first.

The dysfunction with this particular son stems way, way back to my own family.
You know how a person in the family becomes the scapegoat for nothing that they did - it just is - and then it's passed on to the next generation and those relatives haven't even met said scapegoat but they hate them just the same.
Of course my son knows me but from a very young age he was fed some awful disparaging stories about me after I divorced his father when he was around 3 years old.

Quite a complex situation and background to it all.

Me looking to become a child therapist is more to do with my own traunatic childhood than the dysfunction I experience with my own children. It's a different thing altogether.
I've learned a lot and come a long way in understanding what happens for children who experience trauma and how it effects their whole life until they can figure out a different way to do things.

My children didn't have a traumatic childhood in any way and they've sung my praises as adults many times as their mother when they were young.
Dysfunctional though, probably, like most families.
As I've mentioned I've apologised for any wrong doings etc. and he's the only one that chooses not to acknowledge it in any way.
In the Dream it seems he sought me out but in reality he has not.

 

[my_key]

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]
37 Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it."

I didn't understand what all this meant at first because I was reading as Hexagrams not from a Religious context.
I find this an incredibly sad way to do life.. .

Hi on the road

This can be a difficult verse to comprehend and is often misrepresented. I know I found it difficult to reach a point of understanding until many years after splits and discord in family relationship. Life on earth is not one of peace, and this statement by Jesus I believe echoes the Buddhist doctrine that life is suffering: it does not come as a supermarket ready meal of peace - buy one get one free or on special offer. All the goods that are needed for the recipe of peace have to be paid for and have to be unpacked before they can be fully utilised.

I'd liken these words to the same circumstances as outlined in the cycle of the Buddhist Wheel of Life where liberation can only be found in the earthly realms by releasing the suffering in relationship. A relationship that ultimately resides with self. Karma, rebirth, and impermanence moves everyone towards that place of peace-filled liberation. Until then we have to walk the treadmill through the presented divides that have been cleaved by a mighty sword.

Having experienced long-term estrangement from both a parent and children, I can feel your pain. For me, gratefully, all these relationships have reached a point of healing and reconciliation and I can now look back and see more clearly the gifts that were bestowed on me by them all. Both at the start and during the periods of discord and estrangement.

Their gifts allowed me eventually to find a new life: to walk a new life in a new Way. For that reason, I do not share your outlook that this is a sad way to do life. Certainly, short term sadness can prevail (for me this 'short term' period lasted many many years), however once the challenge of taking responsibility for self has been accepted and a choice is made to 'pick up your cross', then the worth that emanates from this new Way can and does shine.

Take Care.

 

[ontheroad]

Hi on the road

This can be a difficult verse to comprehend and is often misrepresented. I know I found it difficult to reach a point of understanding until many years after splits and discord in family relationship. Life on earth is not one of peace, and this statement by Jesus I believe echoes the Buddhist doctrine that life is suffering: it does not come as a supermarket ready meal of peace - buy one get one free or on special offer. All the goods that are needed for the recipe of peace have to be paid for and have to be unpacked before they can be fully utilised.

I'd liken these words to the same circumstances as outlined in the cycle of the Buddhist Wheel of Life where liberation can only be found in the earthly realms by releasing the suffering in relationship. A relationship that ultimately resides with self. Karma, rebirth, and impermanence moves everyone towards that place of peace-filled liberation. Until then we have to walk the treadmill through the presented divides that have been cleaved by a mighty sword.

Having experienced long-term estrangement from both a parent and children, I can feel your pain. For me, gratefully, all these relationships have reached a point of healing and reconciliation and I can now look back and see more clearly the gifts that were bestowed on me by them all. Both at the start and during the periods of discord and estrangement.

Their gifts allowed me eventually to find a new life: to walk a new life in a new Way. For that reason, I do not share your outlook that this is a sad way to do life. Certainly, short term sadness can prevail (for me this 'short term' period lasted many many years), however once the challenge of taking responsibility for self has been accepted and a choice is made to 'pick up your cross', then the worth that emanates from this new Way can and does shine.

Take Care.

Putting in better context for me to understand - I'd have to agree with you....so thanks for taking the time to do that.

This estrangement from him and others I've experienced in my life has been a great thing for me, in the ways it sounds like your estrangements were for you.

Hopefully there will be resolution some day for us too but at this point I'm not seeing it happening anytime soon.

I'm still figuring things out but I do know I'd rather have no relationship with someone, than a dysfunctional one.

 

[Trojina]

A further development which may cast light on this reading

Email sent 18.3

I sent (another) email to my 3 children although this one feels slightly different. What response to expect from No. 1 son (estranged for 4 years) 54.2>51 I feel is not open to seeing where I'm coming from or who I've become as such. What response can I expect from No. 2 son (dysfunctional...

www.onlineclarity.co.uk

 

[ontheroad]

Update: I did send an email to him (and my other two sons)

I think the dream meant:
His response to my email is the symbol of what he gave me in the Dream. The train journey is me taking time to process his response and wanting to run away from the awfulness if his words.

In reality I did respond to his email which normally I'd just run from. So all that others have said, particularly my_key and Hans_K, is also relevant and a reflection of this dream and situation.