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Dreaming up hexagrams.. to gain understanding of dreams !

d_squared

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~
In pursuing the concept of synchronicity, Car Jung had focused his attention in three particular areas: astrology, dreams and the Book of Change . This is where he observed good evidence of meaningful coincidences . Most of all, Jung spent considerable effort formulating theories about the human subconscious in order to obtain more insight into dreams . According to Jung, the inner working of our lives is well hidden in a deep and vast layer of consciousness . The real forces which shape and direct our existence are largely unknown and often ignored by us to the detriment of our own well being . Dreams are intermittent glimpses and reminders that we get about this elusive dimension .

As it happened , Jung's strong interest in dreams had found support and collaboration coming from a very unlikely quarter . Wolfgang Pauli (1900-1958) , a world-renown physicist, a Nobel laureate , was fascinated by Jung's work on the subconscious . In addition to exploring the secrets of the physical universe, Pauli had also devoted much energy looking carefully into the world of dreams, recording and documenting his own experiences . By analysing and sharing hundreds of his dreams with Jung, Pauli reportedly had obtained not only valuable understanding of his own personal problems but also clues to further his scientific research . One of his more well-known dreams is about a "world-clock", which has been described as follows:

Pauli’s “World Clock” dream
(Originally published by C. G. Jung in Psychology and Alchemy):

There is a vertical and a horizontal circle, having a common centre. This is the world clock. It is supported by the black bird. The vertical circle is a blue disc with a white border divided into 4 X 8 — 32 partitions. A pointer rotates upon it. The horizontal circle consists of four colours. On it stand four little men with pendulums, and round it is laid the ring that was once dark and is now golden (formerly carried by four children).

The world clock has three rhythms or pulses:
1) The small pulse: the pointer on the blue vertical disc advances by 1/32.
2) The middle pulse: one complete rotation of the pointer. At the same time the horizontal circle advances by 1/32.
3) The great pulse: 32 middle pulses are equal to one complete rotation of the golden ring. (p. 194).


PauliWorld_Clock.jpg

(The World Clock. An impression generated by artist W. Beyers-Brown based on accounts of Pauli’s dream).


Jung had applied his theories of archetypes to Pauli's world-clock dream, and viewed the image of concentric circles as "mandalas" representing the true "Self" , which is the most prominent archetype in human consciousness. This "Self" typifies the perfection, the role of heroes, of kings and leaders. It indicates the highest goal that we, as humans, all aspire to be .

At the time of my reading about Pauli's world-clock dream, I was not familiar with Jung's work on the archetypes, and could not follow his analysis . To me, who happens to have some training in science and physics as well, the circular discs appearing in Pauli's dream are clear symbols of time and space as orthogonal dimensions which are at right angles to each other, but always intertwined and have a common centre, which could well be nothing else but our very awareness .

Unable to reconcile my own impression of this dream with Jung's analysis, I turned to the Yi to get help , and perhaps some more clues . Below is the question I raised, and the response I received :


hex34s.JPG


hex55-36.jpg


Primary hexagram was 34 (Great Power, Great Strength) with two moving lines , so it would evolve into hexagram 36 (Lessening of Light) . As it is often the case , I was not able to make much connection between this manifested response and the query I had in mind . It then occurred to me that perhaps this lack of correlation had prevailed because I was trying to look into someone else's subconscious world. Probably there was insufficient involvement of personal feeling , or something of that nature, to induce good synchronicity .


Exploring the situation a little further, my mind struck upon an idea of applying the same question to one of my own dreams . Selecting a vivid dream I had, which was still fresh in memory and left fairly strong emotion and impression, I put the same kind of question to the Yi :

"Please help me explore the message of my yellow-brick-road dream"

In that dream I found myself traveling in a mechanical vehicle of some sort, probably a truck, heading toward a city called "Newcastle" . The surrounding environment was totally foreign to me, so I was filled with a feeling of being quite lost, could not do anything else except guessing a direction then tried to move along. My vehicle was climbing up a hill, and although I had applied full power, it could barely advance. Eventually I made it to the hill top, but there the scenery suddenly changed. The vehicle had disappeared, leaving me standing at the edge of a vast plain . Again I felt pretty helpless, wondering how would I get to my destination on foot across this great empty space before me. As I looked around hoping to spot any passing traffic and perhaps to hitch a ride, a yellow brick road suddenly appeared . It was a paved road, with a surface that looked remarkably smooth, almost watery . As I step on this road, my mind was occupied with the question of how far and for how long I would have to march on it . However, no sooner than I stood on it. the road swiftly and quietly moved itself to the other end . To my disappointment, there was still no sign of any highway or any passing traffic for me to obtain help with my travel . In front of me was more barren hills, dirt roads punctured with mud holes ...



brickroad.jpg



Again I threw coins , seeking some response from the Yi . I simply did not anticipate what happened next. The same hexagram 34 has appeared, with the same moving lines, morphing into hexagram 36 .

hex34y.JPG



My mind was startled, but not quite sure what to make of all this . Nevertheless, once more, the Yi seems to highlight a condition of great power and vitality, something laden with potential , bubbling away beneath the surface of our awareness, shooting out unexpected images of all sorts to catch our attention .

Instead of expecting certain specific tips from the Yi, perhaps our focus should be on the fundamental nature of dreams . This basic understanding would most probably lead to more insight into each particular vision, as a matter of course .
 
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d_squared

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With the manifestation of the same cast hexagram for two different dream scenarios, my attention has shifted from seeking clues to understand the dream contents to pondering the unexpected coincidence of responses from the Yi .

The only thing which is common about these two instances is that they both revolved around images and visions emerging perhaps from the subconscious world , a universal reservoir of energy which Jung believed we all regularly dip in, albeit unconsciously . It would be reasonable, therefore to think that the Yi's responses have been directed to shedding some light on this common nature, rather than elaborating on the actual content of each dream .

Pushing my luck a little further, I submitted one more question to the Yi :

hex14s.JPG


hex30-21.jpg


Primary hexagram was 14 (Great Possession) with two moving lines, transforming first into hexagram 30 (Radiant Fire) and then finally hexagram 21 (Biting, Gnawing) .


Arguably, both dreams can be regarded as great assets, rich source of inspiration and ingredient for contemplation . In the case of my own dream, it has summed up pretty well the condition of my existence: stranded in a foreign land, lost my bearings psychologically as well as spiritually, exhausted by the unending uphill effort . Indeed there had been occasional respites, getting rides on some magical brick road, but on balance there were plenty more dirt tracks and mud holes to wade through. The dream has brought to the surface some deep underlying psychological hang-ups that I thought I had overcome . Perhaps it was a timely reminder that more work is still required in this respect .
!
 

Freedda

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D squared, a few thoughts:

About the first two readings that are both 34.2.4 > 36 - I see two things in common here: one commonality is you, because you are the one whom asked both questions of the Yi, and the other commonality is that you essentially asked the same question both times: 'help me explore dreams.'

The answers you were expecting might be something like: 'Dream A is about this ...; Dream B is about that ....' But instead the Yi's response is: 'You asked about interpreting dreams, so here are some ideas, tools, a process for how you might do that', or at least that's my take on it.

As to what the responses mean - there is a common phrase in both lines 34.2 and 34.4, 'Persistence is promising' which might mean to take more time to explore and understand just what these suggested methods / tools / processes are all about. And that could mean - at least for me - exploring the lines of 34 and perhaps the trigrams, and not just an overall definition based on the name.

With hexagram 34 you have the trigrams (3-line figures that make up the hexagram) Thunder above, and Heaven below. One quick takeaway from this is that you might consider using creativity and focus to explore dreams, and also to consider 'first thought' or maybe more importantly, 'quick, without thinking, how does this dream feel to you'?

One last thing I noticed is that a fundamental difference in these two dream is not about their content, but about the fact that one of them was not yours (but Pauli's). So two take-aways: again, the Yi's answer is talking about process and not specific content, and, in a fundamental way you can't really know what Pauli's dream is 'about' - since it's sort of like asking: 'on December 10, 1930, what did Pauli's breakfast taste like?'

Anyway, that's what comes to mind for me.

Best, d.
 
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d_squared

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Thank you for your input, Freedda . It’s very helpful .

Regarding your point of placing focus on “first thought” , or rather “first impression and feeling without thinking” , about our dreams , I fully agree .

As a matter of fact , that’s how I tend to treat the hexagrams I received from the Yi as well . If I were tuned in, properly receptive in mind and in spirit, just the shape, the name and the commentary pertaining to a cast hexagram would be sufficient to set me off on the road to further understanding . Very rarely that I would go to the level of moving lines, as I often do not find much insight there, only more bewilderment and confusion . This could well be attributed to my personal temperament and psychological make-up . It seems I’m not built for long tennis rallies, relying instead just on my serves and volleys to endure the game . :)
 

Freedda

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Thanks d-S, I'd only say that my 'advice' about first thought/feeling was about understanding dreams, and not necessarily how to make use of the Yi. But of course that's highly individual.

I'd only add that if you found what I said helpful or useful, perhaps to remember that some of it was from my looking at the lines. I don't think any of us like getting 'bogged down' but I've found a way to include the lines without feeling that way (at least some of the time :>)). That often includes looking for the imagery that the line's text is showing me.

I think that sometimes the lines are perhaps harder to read because their message is not always positive, but I look at this as 'grist for the mill', perhaps showing me what needs to be worked on or paid attention to, even if it's sticky and messy. But I think the Yi can show us the situation (and it's messiness) and the way forward both at the same time.

Best, D.
 
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d_squared

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Thanks d-S, I'd only say that my 'advice' about first thought/feeling was about understanding dreams, and not necessarily how to make use of the Yi. But of course that's highly individual.
Hi David (?)

I understood that you were making a point about a more effective way to view dreams. As it happens , I tend to approach the hexagrams received from my interaction with the Yi in a similar manner , relying more on direct feeling , and not so much on habitual thinking.

To me it seems that the text associated with the lines in a hexagram have little intrinsic significance . The line commentaries appear to be more like another set of “triggers”, catalysts, grists and indigestible bits fed to oysters in the hope that some pearly substance would be formed around them. ... Even then, pearls have been known to make no impression on some . :)
We are immersed in a sea of "television/radio" broadcasts, but no picture or sound would appear until we tune ourselves to the appropriate frequencies . The Yi channel is probably situated in a band requiring extensive patches to our built-in set .
 

radiofreewill

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Hi d_squared,

"Please help me explore the significance of Pauli's dream?"
and​
"Please help me explore the message of my yellow brick road dream?"
34.2.4 to 36 ~ The same great power that moves the sun and the moon also moves you.

Here's a two-part thought exercise:

Part 1: "What can you say with absolute certainty about the *Source* of all the 'things' in the Universe?"​
Male/Female? Black/White/Brown/Yellow? Is there any absolutely distinguishing feature of the *Source* of the Universe?​
After a person gets beyond their subjective 'beliefs' about the *Source* of the Universe, it turns out that there's nothing left that's describable ~ and, yet, here we are? The *Source* of all the 'things' in the Universe, ultimately, is a Mystery beyond words...​
Part 2: "What can you say with absolute certainty about the *Source* of all the 'objects' in your thoughts?"​
Turn your attention inward and gaze over your mindstream to see the objects representing all the persons, places, and things in your inner personal narrative (called My Story)? Now, where did all those objects come from? What can you say about the *Source* of all those objects?​
After a person gets beyond their subjective beliefs and ideas about the *Source* of their thoughts, it turns out that there's nothing left that's describable ~ and, yet, here you are? So, the *Source* of all the 'objects' in your mind, ultimately, is a Mystery beyond words...​

So, to bring it all home here: If I have two apparently different *Sources* ~ both of which are ineffable and contain no distinguishing features ~ then, what is the Occam's Razor answer regarding those two apparently separate *Sources*?

*They are the Same*​

It's One Source ~ the same *Source* ~ for both all the 'things' in the Universe and all the 'objects' in your mind, too.

The same great power that moves the sun and the moon also moves you.​


"Why the same hexagrams for two different dreams?"
14.2.3 to 21 ~ Divine insight 'sees' the straight and level path that cuts thru former darkness.

According to Richard Cook's derivation of the KWS, the 'arranger' of the Yi placed a golden arrow in the line text for 21.4 to show that he 'knew' of Pi? When you change line 4 of 21, you get 27 ~ a circle ~ so, it is the straight and level diameter that cuts across the highs and lows of a confused life.

I'm going to go back to playing my didgeridoo now...

I hope this is helpful?
 

d_squared

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Hi radiofreewill,
I sometimes do get carried away by this sort of thought exercises unwittingly, and often the only impression left at the end is that "it all happened without me" . Put it another way, the feeling is pretty clear: "I" was not doing it at all . :)
 

radiofreewill

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In Chinese, the mind of the Sage is said to operate via wu-wei (effortless action) ~ which stands in contrast to you-wei (selfish action) ~ here's how one of my teachers taught me the difference:

Way is the path​
You can't see​
Never to know​
Only to be​

3GraspingandDwelling.jpg

If you can agree that the *Source* of your thoughts and the *Source* of the Universe are One and the Same, then separateness must be interposed between the two, imho ~ in the mind ~ through Grasping and Dwelling and Story-telling?

So, the dream is an induced separateness
Whereas, Reality is given as Oneness
And this we can know for ourselves
When we cease Grasping and Dwelling
and Story-telling, in favor of Presence, instead.

When you did the thought exercises above and felt no sense of 'you' doing anything...
...still there was presence ~ an aware sentience unencumbered ~ and, and, and,...

...your heart continued to beat...your lungs continued to breathe...eyes see...ears hear...mouth taste...skin feel...

So, I ask you: Is there anything that we truly *need* in this Universe ~ which this most simple state of being ~ the Reality of Present Oneness ~ cannot accomplish effortlessly?

This was a fun exercise, thanks! :)
 

Gmulii

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From Chinese Metaphysics and TCM(traditional chinese medicine) point of view dreams are the Hun魂
The Hun魂 is just movements in the Shen神, so we have Shen神 that experiences and merges it all, from the heart and when movements come to inspire it to accomplish something or to lead it in a direction it needs, that is the Hun魂.

Looking at someones dream if it has clear enough repeating Images, we can also relate images there to the Hun魂 and the other 4 Shen神 and follow how they interact...

Bird - Depending on the bird that can be Li if its really pretty bird, or it can be Gen for the bird on the picture... So for Gen that would be yi意, very connected to thoughts, plans, long term view etc.
Clock, Circular- Qian, that is the po魄 so the physical body, primal level of relating to the world based on need etc.

Then using the Images of the Trigrams and the other parts of it we can see how that relates to everything else. Don't know the full dream, so can't fully do it here, also its not really the place, just posting a pointer for people interested in working with dreams for where they can look to expand that in the Chinese Schools.
 

iams girl

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Impressions...

I can't help but feeling a certain loneliness, emptiness, trapped feeling reflected in both dreams, a kind of "going nowhere" sense to them. Time going round and round in the first one and an endless journey in the second dream.

I've been using Karcher's shadow/ideal hexagrams for insights into my readings lately and it's interesting to me that the shadow is 31 (wooing) and the ideal is 56 (wanderer). To me, 31 as shadow reflects a lack of joy of relationship in both dreams (a person, God, purpose, meaning?). 56's ideal then would be about freeing oneself from this by the wanderer taking small steps, being reserved, and staying in good company rather than becoming too isolated.

In the actual reading, one's light is hidden in 36 and bright and bold in 34. The dream symbols of the elaborate time clock and long road seem mainly like 36's dark upper Earth trigram to me.

Dreams can symbolize where things are going if one continues on the same path so, if one were good at dream interpretation without Yi's help, one might be able to see the dreams as showing a need to break free of a prolonged static situation. With Yi's help, breaking free appears to be hex 34. The lower trigram of Heaven's wisdom (the yellow band and yellow brick road?) returning one to joyful communication with others in the upper Lake trigram (crow and "Newcastle"?).

Btw, I like the way the future 10/8/19 and 12/8/19 time stamps on your readings add a little more mystery to the discussion :).
 

d_squared

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Btw, I like the way the future 10/8/19 and 12/8/19 time stamps on your readings add a little more mystery to the discussion :).
Hi,
There is no mystery, and no travelling to the future with the time stamps. :) They were shown in the dd/mm/yyyy format, which is commonly used in my corner of the world. The actual readings and coin casting had been done in time long past . They have been reproduced this month, using the software I recently revised to track the progression of hexagrams in cases of multiple moving lines.

Your observation regarding a certain sense of loneliness and emptiness showing through the dreams is quite astute, I think . At least that is so for my case . In fact it was loneliness and the emptiness within which drove me to start seeking help from the Yi King many many years ago .

Thank you for your insight, it's much appreciated .
 

iams girl

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:grouphug:, yes, much appreciation for Hilary and Clarity!

Instead of expecting certain specific tips from the Yi, perhaps our focus should be on the fundamental nature of dreams .
Also a good suggestion – I’d think, in general, the fundamental nature would be about restoring or maintaining one’s equilibrium. For example, dreams can be symbolic of what one is lacking in the form of wish fulfillment. Or, they can be a symbolic release of anxieties and fears or a symbolic taking out of mental trash to clear one’s mind. For me, dreams being sort of like a photographic negative, Yi’s help with sorting out the many, many aspects of restoring equilibrium would still apply in the same way with dreams as with waking life.

Heaven's wisdom (the yellow band and yellow brick road?)
I see the color yellow symbolizes Earth more than Heaven (various line 2.5 commentaries), but it would still represent how the “golden mean” is interwoven in the symbolism in some fashion. Maybe the Heaven, Lake, and Fire trigrams could all be associated with the submerged crow and distant “Newcastle” then, only because I do think dream symbols and archetypes can be associated with lines, trigrams, or hexagrams. The main question for me, getting back to the fundamentals, would still be about toward or away from what one would need to move. Just like the elements in a reading, where the symbols are, their relationships with the other symbols, and whether their positive or negative attributes are coming into play would all be important.
 

Freedda

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Below is the question I raised, and the response I received :
I am curious, which website/app did you use (and show us screenshots from) for your query, above?
 

d_squared

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I am curious, which website/app did you use (and show us screenshots from) for your query, above?
The coin throw results for my readings were analysed using a computer program of my own , which has been updated recently to include the progression of hexagrams, something I learned from this forum. The software provides useful visualisation of the dynamics contained in the Yi hexagrams .

For anyone who might be interested , it can be freely downloaded from the OneDrive cloud storage:

for MS - Windows : EKING-en v3.1


for Apple MAC - OSX : EKING-en-mac v3.1
 

Freedda

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The coin throw results for my readings were analysed using a computer program of my own, which has been updated recently to include the progression of hexagrams,
So, the accompanying commentary/text for each hexagram is yours too? And does the program include the text/words from the Yi (along with the commentary noted above), both for the hexagrams and the lines? And if so, whose translation?

Thanks, D.
 
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d_squared

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The hexagram commentary texts appearing in my computer program are by and large a condensed version of the Wilhelm's translation, which was presented in the very first book I read about the Yi . Primarily compiled for personal use, only the bits which make sense to me have been selected, serving at best just as a primer, a starting point facilitating deeper contemplation. Later on, as other English translations became available to me, and as my understanding of the Yi improved, the texts have been revised over and over, many times.

Truth be known, I struggled for a long time with the I Ching text presented under English translation . It just did not sit well with me . Gradually I realised that I was reading it with a habitual rigid mindset, acquired through Western-style vocational training, which was good for scientific pursuit, but perhaps not so inducive when it comes to exploring the Yi . With the passing of time, I had more and more access to books and reference materials written in Vietnamese, expounding the Book of Change . And sure enough, changes happened, I slowly gained a clearer perspective of the Yi, absorbing it through my native tongue. There are subtle and unconscious connections, established by communications via one's natural language, which are difficult to describe or explain . It's something like this: my Asian mindset is activated while reading Vietnamese books about the Yi, and that opens up more underlying meaning that previously could not be grasped through English .

The next logical step would be to apply my newly-gained perspective to the English commentary text in my computer program . However, this is a big undertaking , perhaps too ambitious even, which requires a huge effort. I've made an attempt anyway, mostly to reinforce my own understanding of the Yi. So far, perhaps only about 20% of the text in the EKING program has been revised using interpretation inspired by my innate mindset.

No text pertaining to individual lines in a hexagram has been included in my software . As mentioned in a previous post, the significance of texts associated with each hexagram line usually escapes me.
 

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