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emotional dimension of 26 and 60

dobro p

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I've got a question which has got four parts.

Hex 26: I see it as essentially a matter of strong restraint (and the energy that accumulates as a knock-on effect of that restraint). But...

1 Do you see 26 as having an emotional component?

2 If 26 had an emotional component, what would it be?

Hex 60: I see it essentially as the discipline of regularity - sticking to the right amount at the right time. But...

3 Do you see 60 as having an emotional element?

4 If 60 did have an emotional element, what would it be?
 

Trojina

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Not sure i get the question ? Every hexagram can have an emotional application/implication - why wouldn't they ? 60, especially re emotions, tends to come up when getting things in proportion is important - alotting each thing the emotional investment it really is worth.

But perhaps you are asking something else ?
 
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Sparhawk

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I've been thinking about these questions ever since they were posted yesterday. Suppressing the urge to shoot from the hip yesterday, I came to, more or less, the same conclusion as Trojan. At least the implication of what Trojan presents but from the other side: what hexagrams have an intrinsic/literal emotional component? I mean, like Trojan does (I believe), that we make them fit the context of our question and not because hexagrams, as a homogeneous set or taken indivicually, have a some sort of "degree" of emotional content per se.

But again, perhaps the real question is something else...
 

charly

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... Hex 26: I see it as essentially a matter of strong restraint (and the energy that accumulates as a knock-on effect of that restraint). But...
1 Do you see 26 as having an emotional component?
2 If 26 had an emotional component, what would it be?
...

Dobro:

I believe that H.26 大da4 畜chu4 involves intense feelings given that it speaks of our inner animal own beings.

I know that you don't like «piglore» but see that fourth of six second characters from line statements are animals, only two are abstract concepts:

1 厲 li4 scorpion → poisonous → danger
2 說 shuo1 → words causing joy → persuasion → strategy
3 馬 ma3 horse → strenght + loyalty + freedom → war
4 牛 niu2 ox/cow → force / docility → work
5 豕 shi3 pig → fecondity + wealth → luck
6 天 tian1 → big man with big head → ancestor → sky → heavens

King Wen text says:

da4: big / large / great
chu4: cattle / livestock / domestic animal
GREAT CATTLE

li4: profitable / advantage / benefit
zhen1: omen / divination / perseverance
PROFITABLE DIVINATION

bu4: not / no /
jia1: home / family
shi2: food / animal feed
NO HOME FOOD

ji2: lucky / fortunate
LUCKY

For old wiseness (folktales) animal are like human beings.

For political philosophers (mainly legalists) human beins are like animals, remember the «straw dogs» of LauZi.

I believe that one of the meanings is about the TAMING OF HUMAN BEINGS [BIG-CATTLE]. First of all no more natural food, not the food they are customized to, not the food they can get or prepare by himselves. CHANGE THE FOOD. CHANGE THE TRADITIONAL ORDER [BE RADICAL].

Under this light the lines could have this meanings:

  1. Having danger [scorpions] it is profitable to stop. Do not hurry, wait your time.
  2. Apply massive persuasion, a palanquin do not need wheels, get the hands, lead the revolt.
  3. Pursue stallions (1), block carts, go far: restrain all mouvements except yours.
  4. To the youg bull give him a court: give some commodities or controlled benefits (2).
  5. Geld the pigs, remove the tusks: pacify the rebels, no matter the means.
  6. This is the heavenly order, now you can celebrate.

To summarize:

How to take control of big cattle, some advices for political leadership, how to get an empire. Feelings, of course, I believe, the worst.

yours,


Charly
________________________
(1) sexual restraint is only a part of generalized restraint implied in taming human masses.
(2) give convenient exceptions like polygamy and male supremacy.
 

Sparhawk

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Why don't we ask better what is the emotional element of each hexagram and I can bet some money that we will find it, some sort of connection and emotional association, for every single one... I further bet that, regarding "emotional elements" in the hexagrams, we will not agree with each other...
 

Trojina

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Why don't we ask better what is the emotional element of each hexagram and I can bet some money that we will find it, some sort of connection and emotional association, for every single one... I further bet that, regarding "emotional elements" in the hexagrams, we will not agree with each other...

Okay good idea whos going to start :D Actually we probably wouldn't even agree on what emotion is, but its a good idea because sometimes its harder to get the emotional 'message' with answers. Sometimes like with 41 'decrease passions and involvments' its more obvious but with hex 3 for example I see no particular emotional stance - it seems quite a cerebral hexagram, maybe confusion but thats not really an emotion. Actually if i had to assign an emotion to 3 at this moment I might say 'buoyancy' but i could change my mind.

I think theres quite alot of help with the emotions with the Yi, its surprisingly understanding - but it would be interesting to look at this a bit closer.
 

Trojina

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Synchronistically I just noticed someone has asked an emotion type question in the friends area and got hex 3. Maybe i withdraw the buoyancy angle, lol
 

dobro p

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Not sure i get the question ? Every hexagram can have an emotional application/implication - why wouldn't they ? 60, especially re emotions, tends to come up when getting things in proportion is important - alotting each thing the emotional investment it really is worth.

But perhaps you are asking something else ?

Well... some hexagrams and lines have an obvious emotional content - think of Hex 37, for instance, or 61.2, for a sort of personal emotional content, and think of something like 40.6 or 18.6 or 30.5 for a kind of situational emotional content - it's easy to see how these have emotional content, and it's easy to see what sort of emotion it would be.

But I was wondering if anybody saw an emotional content in Hex 26 (my guess would be that they didn't), and I was wondering if I asked the question about emotional content in Hex 26, what that would suggest to people familiar with the Yi. So: what emotion, if any, do you associate with powerful restraint?
 

dobro p

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Why don't we ask better what is the emotional element of each hexagram and I can bet some money that we will find it, some sort of connection and emotional association, for every single one... I further bet that, regarding "emotional elements" in the hexagrams, we will not agree with each other...

Well, see, my particular question about Hexes 26 and 60 showed me something about the Yi in general - it doesn't make a big deal out of the emotional content of each situation, probably because that varies with the individual and the situation. Yet I think that might have something to do with the Chineseness of the thing - that typical kind of East Asian restraint of emotion. Brits have it too. Not Americans or Italians lol.

But think for a moment of strong restraint: do you associate any emotions with that?
 

dobro p

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To summarize:

How to take control of big cattle, some advices for political leadership, how to get an empire. Feelings, of course, I believe, the worst.

Charly, although I see the animal element in people, I see two other dimensions that animals either lack or don't have much of - higher mind and spirit. So on the one hand, I obviously see how Hex 26 applies to animal instincts and passions in us. (But where you see those instincts as negative, my original question was about what emotion you associate with the RESTRAINT of those impulses.) And on the other hand, I also think that the restraint of Hex 26 can also apply to higher, more purely human traits like the big love one has for certain people, perhaps for one's country or religion, for one's work if you're an artist, for example - you need to restrain that big love to keep it balanced, you need to restrain the power of that higher energy so that it doesn't overwhelm people, so that it doesn't overwhelm yourself.
 

Trojina

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What do you mean Brits are restrained :rant: this is how we use up calories, lol.

Dobro wouldn't 26 refer to restraining very powerful emotions. Actually i can see in an negative light one might see a huge build of tension/anxiety enough to be crippled/lamed by not expressing emotion- maybe 26.2 ?

I kept getting 26.1 when i had pretty out of control feelings i wanted to act on - so associate that line strongly with blind emotional outlet.

In 26.4 and 26.5 the powerful feelings are there but the dangerous edge has gone.

So 26 is passion restrained ...in emotional terms...maybe.

(BTW I don't see 37 as obviously emotional - to me its about roles and structures, everyone just doing their job - )
 
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Sparhawk

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But think for a moment of strong restraint: do you associate any emotions with that?


Is that a trick question? LOL! What form of restrain doesn't involve emotions of some kind? There is the self-imposed restrain as a consequence of some situation, for example (how about the restrain of holding that spanking to a child that refuses to obey? Restrained anger?). On the other hand, I can find a nice dominatrix, for some induced restrain, to pay you a visit. Then you tell me what kind of emotions did that awake on you... :rofl:
 

dobro p

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What do you mean Brits are restrained :rant: this is how we use up calories, lol.

I've had a lot of dealing with Brits, and my wife is British. Very un-Canadian in terms of how emotion tends to be restrained. Brits are rather Japanese, actually lol.

Dobro wouldn't 26 refer to restraining very powerful emotions.

Yes, exactly. And although I see an important difference between lower feelings (stuff like fear and lust and anger) and higher emotion (compassion, gratitude, non-sexual love) I think that 26 includes restraining both. (Of course, I think that 26 can apply to non-self, non-psychological issue too, but we're talking about emotion here.)

I kept getting 26.1 when i had pretty out of control feelings i wanted to act on - so associate that line strongly with blind emotional outlet.

Yes. But my question isn't really about what emotions you're having when you draw 26; my question's about whether you have an emotional demeanor IN THE ACT OF RESTRAINING. When you have a powerful emotion and you restrain it, is there an emotion involved in the act of restraining? Is there a 'martial' emotion, for example, that you go into when you're determined to restrain something powerful in yourself?

(BTW I don't see 37 as obviously emotional - to me its about roles and structures, everyone just doing their job - )

Yeah, and I see what you mean. And yet I also see 37 as having this sense of belonging to the inner group, and that sense of belonging is for me a very emotional thing, feeling well-supported and cared for. And this very difference between how you and I see 37 (I thought 37 was an obvious example that everyone would agree with lol) highlights the general point I'm noticing and also one reason I started this thread - the Yi downplays emotion in its texts and lines. See, I think every situation has the three elements of how you understand the situation, how you feel in the situation, and what you do about the situation. The Yi tends to focus on your understanding and behavior, and to leave the emotional aspect up to you. Probably sensible, since people's emotional reactions to the same event can vary so widely. Anyway, sorry for the long-winded digression; my main interest is the one I talked about above, the emotion (if any) in the act of restraining. Ring any bells?
 

Trojina

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Yes. But my question isn't really about what emotions you're having when you draw 26; my question's about whether you have an emotional demeanor IN THE ACT OF RESTRAINING. When you have a powerful emotion and you restrain it, is there an emotion involved in the act of restraining? Is there a 'martial' emotion, for example, that you go into when you're determined to restrain something powerful in yourself?

It depends on the individual, the circumstance etc. Self restraint isn't usually that much fun so I guess it always involves some will power and a degree of conviction that this restraint is to the good. Not emotion as much as some would call 'moral fibre' or 'integrity'. These aren't emotions as such are they, more qualities of character necessary to make the restraint upon the self.

Hmm anyway i don't really know is my answer to your question, lol

Actually i remember a discussion on how brutal or not the restraint in 26 is in the 26 memorising thread. As I recall there was discussion of this in relation to how one best tames/controls animals. Some said the restraint in 26 was done through gentle paced release of power- others disagreed, I think
 
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dobro p

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Thanks, that's useful. I think I'm onto something. If I run something past the thoughtful minds here and nobody recognizes it, then it's new.
 

Sparhawk

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Thanks, that's useful. I think I'm onto something. If I run something past the thoughtful minds here and nobody recognizes it, then it's new.

We'll send you a bill for our consulting fees. :D
 

charly

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Charly, although I see the animal element in people, I see two other dimensions that animals either lack or don't have much of - higher mind and spirit. So on the one hand, I obviously see how Hex 26 applies to animal instincts and passions in us. (But where you see those instincts as negative, my original question was about what emotion you associate with the RESTRAINT of those impulses.)

Dobro:

I agree about something animal inside us, but I don't see those instincts as negative.

Maybe animals have not some features that human beings have but ancient people think that they bear human feelings, human skills, human weaknesses: they shared with us the same natural and supernatural world although they were there first.

I believe that instinct is neither positive nor negative per se, all depends of what do you do with it.

I was thinking in the taming of people masses as they were animals, the fierce strategy that can lead to horror, not because the animal nature of instinct but because the kind of restraint applied.

After fierce restrait the worse feelings emerge: hate, resentment, wish of vengeance, falseness, submision, opportunism, submissiveness... the worst.

And on the other hand, I also think that the restraint of Hex 26 can also apply to higher, more purely human traits like the big love one has for certain people, perhaps for one's country or religion, for one's work if you're an artist, for example - you need to restrain that big love to keep it balanced, you need to restrain the power of that higher energy so that it doesn't overwhelm people, so that it doesn't overwhelm yourself.

I believe that big love cannot be bad. Excessive love is not love, maybe possessiveness, maybe another thing. When love for your country turns in hate towards foreigners, it is not love. Many things need to be restrained.

But do not exaggerate.

Yours,

Charly
 

dobro p

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I believe that big love cannot be bad. Excessive love is not love, maybe possessiveness, maybe another thing. When love for your country turns in hate towards foreigners, it is not love. Many things need to be restrained.

But do not exaggerate.


I wasn't exaggerating, I was telling it like I see it - you and me see things differently, is all. Big love can't be bad if big love is balanced by big insight and checked so that it doesn't overwhelm. Love is such a powerful force that it could overwhelm others if they were exposed directly to it.
 

charly

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I wasn't exaggerating, I was telling it like I see it - you and me see things differently, is all. Big love can't be bad if big love is balanced by big insight and checked so that it doesn't overwhelm. Love is such a powerful force that it could overwhelm others if they were exposed directly to it.
Dobro:

We see things differently but not too much. Only that I prefer not to say LOVE when it is excessive. Of course some sort of social and personal control is always needed.

Given that feelings comes always intermingled you have all the reason.

If music be the food of love, play on;
Give me excess of it, that, surfeiting,
The appetite may sicken, and so die.​
Shakespeare: «Twelfth Night» or «What You Will»
From: http://www.it.usyd.edu.au/~matty/Shakespeare/texts/comedies/twelfthnight_1.html#xref003

Yours,

Charly
 

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