Experience with 51.2

[beatpoet]

Hi,

Wanted to hear other's experiences/views with/on 51.2. Biggest wondering is what is regained the same as what is lost i.e., x gets lost and same x is regained or is it x gets lost and maybe something even greater can be regained. For example, can it mean I lost my job/partner/sense of stability but will afte a time regain another job/partner or sense of security of a different kind?

Thank you in advance,
beatpoet

 

[anemos]

For example, can it mean I lost my job/partner/sense of stability but will afte a time regain another job/partner or sense of security of a different kind?

Hi beatpoet,

I have seen both scenarios play out, so can't say its A or B. After getting that line, nowdays I take it as don't letting the loss put you down and freeze you; you need overcome the shock accompanied that loss. IOW, don't get stuck at now and how thing are now, but remain optimistic. The relating 54 seems to affirm that, in some ways.

 

[sooo]

It isn't what is regained as much as what the sensation of shock doesn't cause one to lose. It's more like saying if you chase it it will flea, but if you let it go, you won't have to pursue it, it will return on its own because it belongs to you in the first place. This pertains to the kind of shock that you react to; don't react.

 

[sooo]

And, yes, 54 suggests that it isn't really you, the sensation and the matter which caused it, so let it go, don't go chasing after it. Whatever is you never really leaves, though it may feel as though it does; don't believe it. You can let it go or let yourself go, but if you let yourself go running after it, then you'll have to climb the nine hills a hundred thousand times, and you still won't catch yourself. It's futile. Relax and retreat, you will come back to yourself soon and easily that way.

 

[beatpoet]

Thank you both anemos and sooo.

This jumped out at me:

It isn't what is regained as much as what the sensation of shock doesn't cause one to lose. I.

In all the times I have read this line, I never saw this in it.

So, if that is the case, one interpretation is that if you find yourself totally in shock or overwhelemed, don't worry, you will regain your composure and when you do, you are likely to see that it isn't as bad as you thought, and in the light of day, things will look different or whatever you thought you lost, you really didn't.

beatpoet

I cast it for a friend who is sadly going through a divorce. He is suffering a lot of disapproval from family and it is taking a 51 hex situation to another level altogether.

Thank you both.

 

[sooo]

So, if that is the case, one interpretation is that if you find yourself totally in shock or overwhelemed, don't worry, you will regain your composure and when you do, you are likely to see that it isn't as bad as you thought, and in the light of day, things will look different or whatever you thought you lost, you really didn't.

You will regain your composure, providing you lose it in the first place. Remember, the core of 51 is "to not lose it", do not drop the sacred ladle. There's that big "if" in this line. If your friend chooses to lose it, he'll have to go running after it, but it's unlikely he'll ever catch it that way. How does one catch ones self when it's not ones self he's chasing? 54 is not ones self, it's something one experiences, feels, and in this case it's induced by the sensation of shock or being overwhelmed. As understandable as it is, his composure, and I think a sense of surrender to the facts, will spare him that futile chase.

Thing is, there are different kinds of shock. If he returns to himself, that doesn't mean that accepting or surrendering to the facts will not result in depression, or numbness, or some other form of shock. Divorce can be really tough, and it's very common for many to anesthetize oneself (deprive of feeling or awareness) by rebounding into another relationship. Sometimes its best to get back onto the horse, sometimes it turns out to be another hundred thousand losses.

 

[beatpoet]

That is all true, sooo

I do feel also that there is an *overwhelming* aspect to 51. 51 has also meant for me simply...something unexpected. That may also be the thing here. One of the things he is saying to us, his friends, repeatedly is: 'I never thought my life would turn out like this. I never thought things would get so messed up." ETC. Perhaps that is another aspect of 51.2.

beatpoet

 

[sooo]

That is all true, sooo

I do feel also that there is an *overwhelming* aspect to 51. 51 has also meant for me simply...something unexpected. That may also be the thing here. One of the things he is saying to us, his friends, repeatedly is: 'I never thought my life would turn out like this. I never thought things would get so messed up." ETC. Perhaps that is another aspect of 51.2.

beatpoet

Wow, does that ever sound familiar. How many times I've said that in my later years.

One instance of 51.2 stands out in my mind. It was something brief and nowhere near as serious as your friend's situation, but it makes a good object lesson, I think.

There was a new guy who was hired to run a small store I spent some time in, shooting the breeze with the owner. This gentleman was a retired man, like myself, and we shared some things in common. However, when we got to the topic of the Bible and the Christian faith, we were opposed. I knew the scriptures well, having been a practicing Christian for 20 years, and when he started quoting scripture to me, I blew his mind with a scripture that one will never hear preached from a pulpit. He was shocked and refused to believe it, so I said I'd find the specific chapter and verse when I went home and would get back to him with it. I think you know how emotional religious topics can become and this was no exception. I easily found the scripture, and the next day I stopped by the store and told him the specific verse, whereupon he looked it up. He was in shock, as most Christians would be if they really contemplated the meaning of this verse. He countered with what I considered to be a really weak scriptural rebuttal, saying that the same thing had to be said more than once before it is believed, yet there it was in HIS own Bible. I chose to chill and leave it at that, politely said I'll see you later, take care, and left. When I was home again, several scriptures came to mind, but it began feeling as though this was a futile thing to pursue, so I asked the Yi, what is the wise thing to do? 51.2... let it go, don't go running after the matter to make a point, it would only result in adversity, and I'd lose without gaining a thing. When I next saw him neither brought up the subject again, and we remained friendly.

Small example, but I think it makes the same point.

 

[beatpoet]

Sooo,

Really liked this example. Lot to say, least of which is that is certainly a propos to me as I have been traveling a lot recently in my rental car and have been listening to Christian radio for the first time in the past month to just see what it is and have been in the same shoes as the man in your anecdote! It started quite by accident as I turned on the radio in the rental car which had a preset setting for the station and got transfixed by a sermon about Paul who must have experienced a lot of 51.2. What particularly drew me in to listening was how the minister was discussing the importance of Paul's imprisonment since in fact it would have been unlikely we would have had several chapters of the Bible if he had not been jailed as Paul never sat for a moment but kept continuous travel spreading the teachings of Jesus to the Gentiles.

That really struck me at that moment because I thought of myself and others I knew in who had experienced difficult periods in our lives when we felt severely stuck, unable to move, imprisoned by events and the point of this minister's sermon was submitting to God's plan for you because there is a larger purpose at work (doesn't that seem very 51?!). I think even Paul would have felt 51.2 about his long imprisonment, unexpected surprise. And then, acting out your first reply to me 51.2: taken by surprise, but not dropping the ladle!

beatpoet

 

[sooo]

Thanks for some great points. Paul's very conversion experience, on the road to Damascus to persecute Jewish converts to Christ was itself a major 51.2 experience. He was shocked off his ass onto his ass, and was blinded. Then he saw Jesus (hallucination from heat stroke, or real, or both, who knows?), who asked him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads." Then instructed him to go to a certain convert's house who was expecting him and would heal his temporary blindness, which he did.

I became a convert through working on the road, and having been disillusioned by the whole music business, refused to listen to pop or rock radio, preferring some kind of stimulation for my mind. I found the study of O.T prophecy to be enrapturing, and after two years of this, pulled to the side of highway 101 and had my own Damascus experience.

Since then I returned (24) to my prior eclectic position of being a Daoist Christian, since I perceive Jesus to have been a Daoist Jew (Behold the lilies of the field.. speaking in parables or metaphor.) He certainly couldn't have been a Christian, but he could have been a Bodhisattva for his time and his flocks (he admitted to having flocks which his followers knew nothing of). Reminds me of 53.6. I've also likened Jesus to Chen/thunder, as The Word, Heaven's first son. In the beginning was Chen, and Chen was with God, and Chen was God; the Father and I are one. Both gua 1 and 51 are symbolized by the dragon from heaven, though there were earth and water dragons as well, still, electricity through lightening is said to ignite life on earth. So many parallels. I feel it's a shame they are presented and believed to be in opposition to one another, by both factions. I think revelation comes through shock, not simply by intellect.

 

[beatpoet]

I think revelation comes through shock, not simply by intellect.

Again, so much to say to do justice to what you have written which I receive with a lot of gratitude since it sounds like so much the summation of what you hold most dear in your life. Wow. I can relate to a lot of it. I won't bore you with the details, but I have been bless to have traveled the world and studied every major religion up close an personal and lived in a few different cultures around the world.

I think all humans have their Saul/Paul moment. I guess it is what you do next that decides the rest. What struck me most was your last line which I have snipped and placed above so as not to digress and to ask you loads of quetions or make tons of comments and then forget what I feel is really a very "aha" statement.

Is Revelation a better word than shock? I would have to review the Hex again, but shocks are revelations of sort. But I do so much agree that the intellect is not intuition and shocks come about when not only the intellect is defied, but what is seeming intuition. Perhaps that is why 51.2 stresses the idea about not dropping the ladle.

I am not as clever as many are here who can discuss 51 as put between 50 and 52. For the sake of some clever conversation, and maybe this is really going far afield, however, let us say just for fun that 50 is like mixing the ingredients/stirring the pot, and 52 is a kind of "letting it sit/steep." 51 could be the in-between stage where the ingredients blend/revelation/shock. In a higher metaphysical context, isn't that really how it is? We don't get to see Paul the 5 days (or 5 months/years) that led up to the moment in Damascus. For him to be one of the greatest converts we have ever known, he would have had to be the complete opposite before his "revelation." I am sure others have put this thought forward. So, perhaps 51 needs to be viewed more broadly. I have to really read through 51. I have not ever really appreciated this aspect.

And, of course, I have found your story fascinating in of itself. Definitely more interesting than I could have imagined (51)!

Thanks for sharing,
beatpoet

 

[beatpoet]

I think revelation comes through shock, not simply by intellect.

Again, so much to say to do justice to what you have written which I receive with a lot of gratitude since it sounds like so much the summation of what you hold most dear in your life. Wow. I can relate to a lot of it. I won't bore you with the details, but I have been bless to have traveled the world and studied every major religion up close an personal and lived in a few different cultures around the world.

I think all humans have their Saul/Paul moment. I guess it is what you do next that decides the rest. What struck me most was your last line which I have snipped and placed above so as not to digress and to ask you loads of quetions or make tons of comments and then forget what I feel is really a very "aha" statement.

Is Revelation a better word than shock? I would have to review the Hex again, but shocks are revelations of sort. But I do so much agree that the intellect is not intuition and shocks come about when not only the intellect is defied, but what is seeming intuition. Perhaps that is why 51.2 stresses the idea about not dropping the ladle.

I am not as clever as many are here who can discuss 51 as put between 50 and 52. For the sake of some clever conversation, and maybe this is really going far afield, however, let us say just for fun that 50 is like mixing the ingredients/stirring the pot, and 52 is a kind of "letting it sit/steep." 51 could be the in-between stage where the ingredients blend/revelation/shock. In a higher metaphysical context, isn't that really how it is? We don't get to see Paul the 5 days (or 5 months/years) that led up to the moment in Damascus. For him to be one of the greatest converts we have ever known, he would have had to be the complete opposite before his "revelation." I am sure others have put this thought forward. So, perhaps 51 needs to be viewed more broadly. I have to really read through 51. I have not ever really appreciated this aspect.

And, of course, I have found your story fascinating in of itself. Definitely more interesting than I could have imagined (51)!

Thanks for sharing,
beatpoet

 

[sooo]

Is Revelation a better word than shock? I would have to review the Hex again, but shocks are revelations of sort.

That's an interesting thought. Had to pause and reflect on that awhile. How about this? Shocked out of my skin, which would be 51 changing to 49. Molting is a shock in itself. Imagine tucking in for a nice, long sleep in a cocoon and emerging as a butterfly. Or a tadpole which emerges from the water as a frog. Baptism? The idea of willful baptism of the immersion type is that the old man goes down into the abyss and emerges a new man, a born again man, and a reenactment of more ancient rituals of trasforming a boy into a warrior. It's a shocking experience. Even christening as an infant seems to shock the baby, but an adult being immersed and coming up new, not in a 54.6 fashion but in 49.5 fashion is a revelation, if one is fully committed to the ritual; and revelations which could not be grasped beforehand by intellect come suddenly rushing in, speaking in unknown tongues and words which one has no prior knowledge of, and a new song that one has not before heard or sang. I was baptized once as an infant, twice as an adult, plus I played in worship bands for many years during these rituals, and the kind of pentecostal emotions of this ritual are unlike anything I've ever experienced, both 51 and 49 in one, I'd have to call it.

I tend to see intuition as a 31 phenomenon. Wisdom comes to you as a wise man's words to a young and impressionable maiden. There can be some shock and transformation results from that as well, those proverbial "ah ha" moments.

I supposed in that mix, 16 can also be very active.

But the proof is not in those exciting moments but in the longer term 50, as you've pointed out. It's not worth that much if it's only a sensational experience, it must refine permanently, and that takes time and work, though there are rituals associated with that as well, such as communion, which also has the connotation of 11.

So many revelations as a Christian revealed their deeper implications through the contemplation of the IC's symbolism, and to the chagrin of some, vice verse.

I do hope you will share at least some of your stories, as stories are not only stories of experience, they are memorable parables as well. And parables are chewy and can last a long time, sometimes a lifetime, adding texture and flavor to the contents of the Ding, along with the typically dry contents of intellectualism.

:bows:

 

[anemos]

Great discussion !!!! :bows:

Beatpoet, please do share some stories.

my thousands words re hex51.

 

[beatpoet]

Oh dear!

I just noticed that my reply didn't get posted and now I don't have the foggiest of what I did say! Can you say 51?! Must not have been that important!

I love the pic anemos!

Soo, baptism, born again... I think in my last post if I recall I was trying to substitute the word Revelation and read the lines from that aspect, but I have lost my focus altogether now. Sad. :bag:

Anemos... how good can a storyteller be who can't hold the thread of thought?! Lol.

beatpoet

 

[anemos]

Anemos... how good can a storyteller be who can't hold the thread of thought?! Lol.

beatpoet

I think its what makes them good storytellers.

I tell stories without words... while 'construct" them my brain pains--- wandering in different places simultaneously.