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Fallout from Christmas Disaster - Unchanging 16

cguleff

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Without getting into details, one of my closest friends spoiled a Christmas get-together I gave (at his request) for him and a close friend of his. I had little else going for me this holiday season and this was my one bright spot. When he drinks his personality changes. He came to the party late, already "buzzed" and became abusive toward me. He didn't understand how this affected me and didn't apologize or make amends during or after the party, so I left him a message saying I didn't want to be his friend any longer. (That's not typical of me.) I sent him a letter with a spiritual message that came to me while I was meditating. He should be receiving it soon.

The question I posed to the I Ching: "Please tell me what's happening with the fallout from the Christmas party incident with D-? What should I know? Any advice? I drew an unchanging 16 - Enthusiasm.

I'm trying to understand the response. I'd appreciate any feedback or suggestions from members of this forum.

Thanx,
Chris
 
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micheline

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Hi Chris,
It's odd because tonight I drew 16 (with various changing lines) a few times when inquiring about something. I don't find 16 easy to interpret as my experience has shown that sometimes it is not an encouraging reply at all. BUt not an ill omen necessarily

you certainly responded spontaneously to your friend (very 16ish) which I don't think is a bad thing...you are "shaking up the field", probably as a result of built-up energies regarding your friend's drinking problem and the way it has affected you.

Problem drinkers often need a good shake to demonstrate to them how their behavior affects others. Even if they don't like it, as they probably won't.

I was reading Karcher's description of "riding the elephant" in 16......I think this is amusing, in that there is a book about alcoholism called "The Elephant in the Living Room"....it refers to the fact that a family typically tiptoes around the problem - in denial- pretending that all is normal when in fact there is a huge elephant in the living room which no one will talk about or acknowledge.

I dont know if thats relevant for you, but I intuitively feel you did an honest thing by spontaneously expressing that you dont want/nor need an abusive and disappointing friendship like this. Your rode the elephant. You provided him with some grist for his mill, some honest feedback. I say good for you. I hope he takes it to heart and at the very least apologizes.
 
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jesed

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Hi Chris

Some ideas about 16, in case could be useful (of course, if you think they are useless, just put the away)

1.- You need to adapt yourself to others if you want they follow you. If you act like that, they would follow you; otherwise, they'll reject you.

"To arouse enthusiasm it is necessary for a man to adjust himself and his ordinances to the character of those whom he has to lead....It is the same with human society: only if such laws are rooted in popular sentiment can be enforced, while laws violating this sentiment merely arouse resentment. " (Whilelm's comment about the Judgment)

Did you want your friend "follow" you (apologize, and so on) without adjust yourself to his character?

2.- How to act: "When, at the beginning of summer, thunder--electrical energy--comes rushing forth from the earth again, and the first thunderstorm refreshes nature, a prolonged state of tension is resolved. Joy and relief make themselves felt. So too, music has power to ease tension within the heart and to loosen the grip of obscure emotions." (Wilhelm's comment about Image)

3.- Because there is no changing line, you can look at the Ruling Line. In 16, is line 4.
"This describes a man who is able to awaken enthusiasm through his own sureness and freedom from hesitation. He attracts people because he has no doubts and is wholly sincere. Owing to his confidence in them he wins their enthusiastic co-operation and attains success. Just as a clasp draws the hair together and hold it, so he draws man together by the support he gives them." (Whilelm's comment about Line 4)
If you look this line, seems to advice something opposite to your actual way. "Gain" his cooperation instead of "I won't be your friend any longer".

In one phrase: Seems Yi Jing advice you to resolve tension. Of course, achieve that your friend "follows" you (including apologize): not by force but by gaining his cooperation.

Best wishes

ps. Line 4 point to one important thing: "Owing to his confidence in them he wins their enthusiastic co-operation and attains success"...could it be give him a chance to repair what he spoiled?
 

matt

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Nicely said about line 4 Jesed, I would offer the same line as an advice in how to deal with the situation most creatively.

I've experienced 16 many times with many people in many situations, in the cycles I use it is possible to find a birth hexagram, which doesnt necessarily say that this person IS the energy stated in that particular birth hexgram, but it does hint at which energy expressions they use. Ive done quite a few charts of people I know, combining the Tao cycles with astrological insights and the hexagram 16 always has a re-occurring theme in my observations - those people with 16 as their birth hexagrams are quite direct in speech, can often be rude and slightly obnoxious. 16 can mean indolence, when someone is overbearing and agressive. My best friend has such a hexagram, and I have a few other very 'forward' people with the same configuration.

16 is obviously the reversed energy of 15 Humbling, in this respect, Humbling is its complete opposite - it has a respectful, considerate, quiet demeanour. Humblings inner limits are able to articulate the substance of heart and mind before the energy reaches the outside, where humbling places no limits on these simple articulations, they simply yield gently in the outer world making no dented forces upon anything they contact.
16 however, has the inner yielding, meaning energy passes effortlessly from mind and heart to the outer world, there is no assessing of emotions or thoughts, no limits or restrictions on words or actions. And when this free flowing river makes contact with the outer world/people then it takes the form of Shake, the constant arousing of energy. Therefore the 16 situation is action without restraints. 16 will try to establish itself in the outer world by constantly shaking up its enviroment, whilst the inner world of 16 is without the substance to restrain the more negative outbursts.

Returning to the 4th line as Jesed commented on, the best way to handle a 16 situation is to arouse delight, try to stay without doubt and be confident in your own magnamity to resolve 16's indolence. There is always a creative way to handle anything, and if we try to remember that 16s natural inclination is to arouse the outer world without inner restraints, then we can learn to forgive their excesses more, and try to adapt to our own energies to deal with it.
 

matt

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Imagine the trigram of Open/Joy when dealing with 16, try to make this your own outer expression. When Joy is your outer expression to 16s thunder, than a close relation to hexagram 12 is formed, the symbol traditon of 12 is;
'A chun tzu uses parsimonious actualising-tao to cast out heaviness'
This is a perfect way to handle 16.

My brother is an aggressive person also, and when he gets into a mood, everyone finds it impossible to alleviate his aggression, he becomes single minded and focused only on sustaining his own bad mood in the enviroment he finds himself in (just like 16). Many years ago, I found out the best way to be with him when he is like this - I become stingy and sharp back, but with a difference - using humour and trying to imagine him smiling at my comments, to draw his focus away from his own mood and instead look upon my own stupidly sharp humour and see the funnier side. This is using parsimony to cast out heaviness and introduce a lighter side. If you can get a 16 person to forget their own toiling, you can get them to smile.
 
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bruce

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Interesting observations on 16, Matt. It seems like a lot of work for whoever winds up with the 16 mate, though. Or is there a naturally counter-balancing type of person for this? It would seem that another forward individual would have to compete with the 16 personality, and a 15 could easily be trampled underfoot. Any impressions on Chris' personality type, and any indication whether there's a balancing natural chemistry with 16, or not?
 

matt

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Your right Bruce, it can be a lot of work, although anything that challenges us is good right? Thats exactly why energy isnt balanced right now in our world, purely because its the dynamics of inbalances that creates the challenges for us to grow.

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the 'competing' aspect of the situation, if we compete for others space then a power struggle for that space will enevitably ensue, and a 15 person wouldnt have the necessary clout to grab a 16 persons attention, although their eyes would be very aware to all the external changes before them, very perceptive.

Thats why we have to consider an energy that DOESNT COMPETE when taking into account 16s outer thunder. Yin doesnt compete with yin, so the outer trigram Field wouldnt compete with outer trigram Shake, but at the same time.. Field wouldnt be abke to offer an awakening substance to Shakes yang line. So thats why the outer trigram Open is perfect, it has a stimulating active potential with the two yang lines and a yielding yin line. Although yang does compete with yang, so two yang lines in the same position/space will collide.

It may not make sense at the moment because you are probably thinking that Shakes first yang line will compete with Opens first yang line, but you have to imagine one of the trigrams upside down for the interaction to be realistic. Lets say someone had an outer energy of Open, if you met this person and could see their energy, it wouldnt look like Open to you, it would look like Ground because its Open reversed. So thats why Open/Joy is the least competitive and most dynamic resolution to Shake. No yang lines compete, and Opens yin line yields to Shakes only yang line, a composition.

I believe thats why 16s indolent factor is best resolved with a parsimonious, humorous approach. If we also look at the text of hexgram 58 Open, it mentions 'stimulating used to oppose heaviness' and 'the commoners forget their dying, forget their toiling', and this is the source of Opens power. To inspire joy. If we also look at the symbol tradition for hexagram 16, it mentions 'extolling delight', as the best way to be. And lastly, the reason I mentioned the relation to hexagram 12 is because when trigrams Open and Shake face off agaisnt each other, the trigram Force is born, the creative. So 16 transforms into 12, which denotes obstruction, and also says we should use a swift, sharp approach to cast out heaviness, again this is tied into hexagram 58, and 16s symbol tradition.

The energy interactions of the trigrams are symbolistic diagrams of the constant ebb and flow of our world, the harmonics of two opposing energies, and ultimately a guide to understanding how our universe actually works.
 

lightofdarkness

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16 is about the use of foresight/planning. The trigrams read bottom-to-top "with/from devotion to another comes awareness".

Its skeletal form is described by analogy to the dampened qualities of hexagram 21 with its focus on problem-solving.

I dont think it is the 'best fit' for your question... to focus on consideration of your feelings about your place in the context try out http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/icplusProact.html

If you have problems then just answer the first three questions and repeat that selection for the other three to give you a general hexagram.

Chris.
 
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bruce

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Matt, interesting how you've developed this system. The way you've described 16's mate is exactly the type of person I would imagine going well with 16. A bit flamboyant, humorous and outspoken, with little need for constant affirmation from him, takes his antics with a grain of salt, and carries her own weight, kind of person.
 

lightofdarkness

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The persona represented in 16 is represented in the MBTI as an XNTP in an XNFP context - aka a problem solver (solution seeker) in an identity seeker context. IOW the overall, general, drive of a 16 persona is on establishing identity but THROUGH the context rather than asserting the context. In that drive is the particular focus on issues of problem solving etc

For the 'full spectrum' of the personality of 16 just look at 16s spectrum.

A rough guide for persona and IC see:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/type.html

16 is mapped into the link for the XNFP.

(I had to take down a lot of the MBTIPlus pages - 'they' did not like it and I cant afford lawyers)

IOW get your MBTI/Keirsey 'code' and it can be translated into an IC hexagram giving you more details then 'they' offer re behaviour/drives etc --- then comes the relationships issues re a cooperative relationship vs a competitive relationship etc etc

Chris
 

matt

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Bruce, I wish I could make some diagrams to outline my ideas more, at the moment most of my work is in the form of sketches in notepads, Im the messiest writer in the world. I dont know where I can download I Ching symbols from so I could formulate some diagrams.
 

lightofdarkness

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BTW - when we fold-in emotions to the binary ordering of trigrams/hexagrams we find an interesting form of interpretation of personas/hexagrams etc where the hexagram is expressed as:

WE X(bottom trigram) Y(top trigram) and the hexagram is what we do to 'resolve' or 'express' this issue.

For example, earth represents fear and thunder represents surprise. Thus 16 reads:

We/I FEAR SURPRISE. So what do we do? we plan and so avoid surprises (and so the general meaning of 16)

We/I FEAR ANGER - and so we purposly defend against attacks (hex 12 - neutralise attacks - note there is no REPLACEMENT since in yin the focus is on cooperation, we coexist with out enemies, in yang we try to remove our enemies)

Swap things to give us we/i 'anger' fear. What does that mean? it means to deal with fear through mediation and gain from that mediation (dominate the fear if you like) - this is hex 11.

These emotions act to DRIVE personalities such that the ordering of MBTI personas maps to the ordering of emotions that map to the ordering of hexagrams.

The XOR material then allows for analysis of the finer details of each category (in that they are all linked together)

Chris.
 

hilary

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Matt, you'll find that images of all the hexagrams have already been very kindly donated to this forum. (Was that by Luis?) Click 'available clipart' to see and right-click and save the images you want. Sorry I don't have the whole lot in a package, though I'm sure someone must have.
 

martin

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I associate the earth trigram with Neptune in astrology and the thunder trigram with Mars. Hexagram 16 is similar to a Neptune-Mars combination, something like "Mars based on / coming from Neptune" or "the martial phase /expression of Neptune".
That fits the behavior of Chris' friend quite well. Drunkenness (a Neptune thing) leading to aggression (mars).
The type that Matt descibes makes me think of Napoleon, who had - if I remember correctly - a Mars-Neptune conjunction prominent in his horoscope.
So from now on I will call hexagram 16 "Napoleon"!
 
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jesed

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Hi Matt

I wonder about birth hexagrams. How do you get them? Because in traditional teachings, one of the uses of the Houses is something like that.

You can derivate an hexagram wich points to how diferent personalities live interiorly the world (inner trigram) and how they express their personality in the outer world (outer trigram). The inner trigram is the date of conception, and the outer trigram is the date of birth.

Then you can see at what House that hexagram belongs, to know the particular Path of develovment of the consultant

So, one can find the "Individual Tao" of each consultant (the Own Nature in the actual incarnation) and the best rol to play in the world.

Every time Wilhelm talks about "develop the own character", (or "adjust himself and his ordinances to the character of those whom he has to lead" like in hex 16) he refers to this tool.

Could it be the same you use?

Best wishes
 

luz

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But, isn't it very, very difficult to know the date of conception for sure??
 
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jesed

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Hi Lightangel


Each trigram, in this tool, has 3 "stages": new, mature and old. It means, the range of aproximation is 15 days for each stage (each trigram have a 45 days range).

So, one needs to know the date of conception, not exactly but to localize the stage/trigram as an aproximation.

Normally, at least where I am, the Report of Birth in hospitals include the weeks of gestation at the time of birth (normally 35/36 weeks). From that, one can get the date with enough aproximation.
 
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micheline

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I have a hard time following the lines of thought above about 16. The 16 seemed more a description of CHris' response to his friend, than it did a description of his friend himself.

also do not agree that the way to approach a problem drinker is by solicitation and adaptation. 16.4 might be a way to approach other people when they are being obnoxious, but problem drinkers frequently need a dose of tough love and a very clear, spontaneous expression of how they hurt others.

there is an old saying that they need to be hit in the head with a 2x4 just to get their attention. I know it sounds harsh, but you cannot afford to be too solicitous and adapting when dealing with a "drunk" in denial..
 

void

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My thoughts exactly. I reckon this is making pretty creative (and peculiar) understanding of 16 in this context.
 
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jesed

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Hi Micheline

Just to avoid misunderstandings

"...also do not agree that the way to approach a problem drinker is by solicitation and adaptation"

That depends on how you understand "adaptation".

Adaptation, in Daoism, is NOT surrender yourself to the other... but achieve your goal by acting ACCORDING with the other's nature. If the other's nature requieres "to be hit in the head with a 2x4", then hit him/her
.

If "problem drinkers frequently need a dose of tough love", then the way to adapt yourself to a drinker is give him a dose of tough love. But you need to adapt to a concret person, not abstract "drinkers". So... adapt yourself to this concret drinker.

The point is: if you want X's do something, you need to "lead" him/her. To lead him/her, you need to have in mind how X is and how X reacts. Otherwise, you'll only get rejection.

That is what I wanted to express with the words "adaptation" and "wins his cooperation".

Best wishes
 

matt

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Hey Micheline, I completely agree with you, if my thoughts came across as 'solicitation or adaption', then this is not how they were meant. In describing the ways to deal with 16, I used the terms; "we should use a swift, sharp approach", and "to draw his focus away from his own mood and instead look upon my own stupidly sharp humour and see the funnier side. This is using parsimony to cast out heaviness and introduce a lighter side." For example, my brother is prone to being very aggressive at times, and if he came up to me and shouted that he was going to rip the guys throat out at the end of the bar, then I would do something unusual like walk over to the pool table, wave him over and ask him to help me lift it up, for which then he would ask why, and Id say 'well obviously we are going to drop it on that guys head, but its too heavy for me alone'. It takes him out of his focus and makes him realise his own mood, then the choice becomes his. There isnt a set way to approach every 16 situation, so this is where 'adaption' is important, because its about knowing the person well enough to be creative and not follow the same patterns which fail to make the person open their eyes, in my brothers case I found a way to help him see himself.

The 16 situation isnt the same on all levels, and it doesnt just mean someone obnoxious and outspoken, acting without restraint etc. Like all energy, there is lower and higher vibrations, it has just been my observation that 16 can manifest itself this way. On higher vibrations 16 can work in a completely different way.

Jesed, the birth hexagrams I use are produced by birthday only, and can also be applied to time of birth exactly. These cycles run from an astrological point of view, where the start of Spring in nature is the start of Spring in the Tao also. The seasons are divided in 384 different aspects (64x6), so each ruling Trigram is 45 degrees long. Each of the 8 ruling trigrams correlates to a different seasonal period. Example, if Shake is the ruling trigram, then Shake would be the upper trigram, whilst the other trigrams rotated in cyclic fashion in the lower position. So the hexagram sequence for Shakes 45 ruling period would be:-

51 Shake Shake
32 Shake Ground
55 Shake Radiance
16 Shake Field
54 Shake Open
34 Shake Force
40 Shake Gorge
62 Shake Bound

And then the next ruling trigram would start outer rulership in the next 45 degree phase of the cycle. Theres two cycles I use, one that has a ruling upper trigram, and one that uses a ruling lower trigram, each interpenetrate each other. You obtain the birth hexagram by the date of birth this way.
 

cguleff

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Thank you all for the feedback. The comments on personality types apply.

In my personal life I act as an amateur social worker & mystic. People come to me for advice, comfort, assistance, readings and to discuss spiritual topics. I am tolerant and forgiving, but have learned to enforce certain boundaries to protect myself.

My friend was raised in a dysfunctional, abusive family and sub-culture in which "meanness" was prevalent. He's actually the "softie" and shining star of his family having escaped the fate of his peers. He suffers from PTSD and other emotional disorders, but is proud of his progress in healing and recovery through therapy and spiritual means. He considers me a close friend and spiritual mentor. I am the only person he is close to who leads a more or less normal life and has no substance abuse issues.

Horoscope information: I have a Virgo sun, Leo rising and Libra moon. He has a Scorpio sun, Capricorn rising and Aries moon.

Again, I appreciate all the comments. I'm learning a lot!

Chris
 
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bruce

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When was it established that this guy was "a problem drinker"? If he is, I didn't read Chris say this. I don't know anyone whose personality doesn't change when they drink.

I read Chris as saying, the guy was boisterous and rude, more so that night when he was drinking. I also read the above as saying that Chris is very sensitive, and is telling his friend what he thinks, in his own way. I dunno, maybe his friend will think that?s rude.

I like what Matt has been saying. If people were aware of what personality types they are compatible with, their chosen relationships would be happier. And with those with whom we have no choice but to associate, understanding them can only be helpful.

"Please tell me what's happening with the fallout from the Christmas party incident with D-?? 16 can also just mean lots of excitement.
 

cguleff

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Bruce,

Actually he is a problem drinker. He is a "blackout drunk" and can become quite abusive under the influence. That is exactly what happened Christmas Eve. He was defensive, argumentative and insulting from the minute he appeared. The dinner party never took place --no excitement, no fun. To minimize the unpleasantness in front of his other friend, I suggested that we go on to another party we had been invited to attend. The quarrelling continued at the next party on a subdued level in one of the back rooms.

I'm refusing to deal with my friend at this time not out of anger, but to force him to see the consequences of his drinking. My friendship is very important to him -- especially after some things that happend this year. I hope to spark in him the desire to go into serious recovery.

I also feel that it's important to show that I value myself and expect to be treated with respect and kindness. A psychic once told me that I would always give more to a relationship than I receive in return. That's fine. That's part of my mission in life. Still, there are limits.

Chris
 
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bruce

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Sounds reasonable to me, Chris. Got to have our personal limits, even within our calling.

How do you see 16 in regard to your question, after the discussion here?
 

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