Feeling Insecure 4.2.6>2

[marybluesky]

If you've read my previous posts, you know about my limited experience in romantic/ sexual areas. Now that I've decided to jump in the pool, I'm very annoyed by the fact that even people several years younger than me are considerably more experienced, have had several partners & various types of relationships.

It hurts. Really.

I feel like a dumb naive person immerged in romantic fantasies (read illusions) who just woke up at 31 to see everyone else has mastered the adult life games while she's been happily dreaming in her childish world.

Not that I expected others to have as few experiences as I, but it hurts my confidence to
see someone about a decade younger than me talking about his numerous sexual encounters who doesn't bother calling and spending time with me because he doesn't care about things other than sex as he's sick of romantic relationships. WTF.

Then where's my place in this field? Everyone I meet has had his share of romantic relationships and now just wants sex, whether he's in his early 20s or late 30s; and they are people I've known for years & thought I could form a romantic relationship with.

Very shitty.

I talked with the I Ching about feeling insecure because of this and got: 4.2.6>2

What does the advice mean? That I accept the ignoramus without much judgement?

 

[breakmov]

Hi, Marybluesky

In that "small point" that is essentially you, gather all your strength to keep yourself open to learn in any new experiences(line2) and simultaneously bear the consequences and separate the "wheat from the chaff" of these experiences(line6).
Learning from experience ends up being an open and uncertain path where one's essence follows a gradual path of development, of advancement and self-correction on that learning path.

breakmov

 

[marybluesky]

Thanks breakmov.

I was just reading comments on these lines in Bradford's book & my take was something similar to your opinion.

So do you think I should leap in the pool and gain experience beside what the universe has offered me at this time, IOW, those guys?

 

[breakmov]

I can't say, but you can and with Yi's help you can learn what resonates with you.
what does your inner truth tell you? how does that "small point" manifest itself in relation to the search you have made in those experiences? I imagine that the reaction depends a lot on each person and the specific situation... an extroverted person learns in one way, an introverted person may respond in a radically different way.
In these "issues of lack of experience and learning" we are all like little children taking their first steps ... taking steps, falling, balancing, learning, gaining confidence... and then losing some of it... and moving forward, each one according to his or her own way of being.

breakmov

 

[becalm]

Possibilities - Just wanting sex comes means your Sacral chakra is too open. To be in that mindset usually comes from being emotionally hurt or it can just be Youthful exuberance.

Line 2 - Learn from those with the Wisdom of experience
Line 6 - stop being so hard on others and/or yourself

The couple of guys I briefly dated recently were around 60 obviously mature men (although Emotionally Immature) both just wanted friends with benefits so they can do what they want when they want without the responsibility of a relationship.
I think it could be also generational in the younger ones. It's a selfish mindset brought about by so many things being instantly available so there's perpetual instant gratification and availability.
My youngest is 26 and he constantly talks about wanting to be in a long term love relationship but I've noticed when he's in relationships he doesn't seem to understand with that comes the responsibility of nurturing that relationship so ultimately it fails and he walks away.

 

[diamant]

Everyone I meet has had his share of romantic relationships and now just wants sex, whether he's in his early 20s or late 30s.
So these people failed to form substantial lasting relationships - you can't know if they ever sincerely tried. And seeing that they have now 'quit', well, quality connections are not what they're after. Just because they are not after that, does not mean that you shouldn't be after what you fancy.

while she's been happily dreaming in her childish world
This is a dangerous point. Allowing beautiful dreams to cloud how we evaluate a potential partner's character is dangerous. My tip for this is not to mistake the drugged-like infatuation stage as real love. It's not. Ignore the dizziness and keep wits about you to get to know who you're dealing with.

feeling insecure because of this [lack of experience] 4.2.6 > 2
4.2 says that young and inexperienced people should be embraced with kindness.
4.6 says we should try to teach, to predict and prevent mistakes, not punish after they're done.
And 2 shows acceptance.
I believe this is saying that this is how a decent person should treat your lack of experience.

 

[marybluesky]

while she's been happily dreaming in her childish world
This is a dangerous point. Allowing beautiful dreams to cloud how we evaluate a potential partner's character is dangerous. My tip for this is not to mistake the drugged-like infatuation stage as real love. It's not. Ignore the dizziness and keep wits about you to get to know who you're dealing with.

I see.
By pointing this, I wanted to say I've been naively waiting for the right opportunity to form a romantic relationship & lost the time to gain experience. I was quick to dismiss what didn't look appropriate and now I feel like a loser. What did I gain instead?
It's really good to have a value system, but not to the point that it makes you a frustrated person like I am.

 

[diamant]

I agree, we can hope that we get lucky, but our actions matter too. Simply waiting without taking any action whatsoever wastes time. It is also a waste of time to associate with partners who clearly state they do not want a relationship, or give out other major red flags, because you're guaranteed to amass one heartbreak and disappointment after another.

In a way you're lucky that the partners you mentioned told you that they don't want a relationship, so you know exactly what to expect as an outcome. Others do not spell it out, but will imply it indirectly. Usual ways in which they'll indirectly let you know are:

1. "I've been hurt in the past so I'm afraid of relationships."
2. "I'm very busy."
3. "I have major issues with (whatever)."
4. "Let's just see where this goes / let's take it easy."
5. "My religion is very strict."
6. "Don't tell me you're looking to get married?"
7. They're irregular in contacting you.
8. They're arrogant and condescending.
9. There's something 'off' but you can't put your finger on it.

 

[rosada]

I see 4.2.6 - 2 as describing you and your feelings of insecurity.
4.2 You are totally capable of navigating your world as it is now.
4.6 But you'd really like to have a larger social life, to put away childish fantasies and experience adult relationships.
2. You're open to this but you don't seem to know how to go about creating it. The Receptive makes me think maybe you're feeling you have to accept whatever is offered and aren't knowing how to negotiate for what you really want.

So I don't see these hexagrams as saying anything about what you should or shouldn't do. They seem more like a simple analysis of your situation, "You feel insecure because you don't have any experience."

I once asked the I Ching how to have more love in my life and got 23. Splitting Apart. I saw this as meaning I should get rid of everything that was not supporting new relationships - like maybe move my deceased husband's clothes out of my closet and his ashes away from my bedside! - but I also saw it as a message to not fake love, to not be too quick to praise things I really didn't care about. Like stop doing the "Love your haircut!" sort of thing. By being more observant and responsive to what I really did have a feeling for I found my inner radar began sending me much clearer signals of where to go and what to do. Perhaps there is a similar fallow up question you could ask. Maybe, "Give me a picture of me in a real loving relationship" would give you some clues. You may get an answer that only seems to be describing your relationship with your cat or how you feel about pizza, but as you follow up these small vibes of good feeling you may find you come to start seeing more opportunities in other areas.

Saturn - the planet ruling slow growth and responsibility - is entering Aquarius - the sign of friendship - at this time which can cause us at first to be feeling we don't have any friends at all but then this placement can help us see who our real friends are and how we can nurture such connections by not expecting or promising more than what is realistic but at the same time by being constant and reliable. It's a time for building solid genuine partnerships so keep saying, "I think we're better off being friends"!

p.s. As I write this I hear Jackson Brown's song For A Dancer.

 

[legume]

my take on advice of 4.2.6 is pretty much in line with your summary, though not sure we'd understand "accept the ignoramus without much judgement" the same way. i feel that it doesn't matter how much experience people have in relationships, or at least it shouldn't matter as much, because everyone comes to any relationship with different background, set of values, needs, etc. some may only have one relationship their whole life, others multiple partners and forms of relations, and in a way they all lack the experience of someone else, they only have their own experience.

maybe line two suggests some openness to whatever comes and in whatever form it comes, that being a bit childlike, in the sense of wonder, as well as not always knowing what to do is absolutely fine, especially when it comes to romance and sex. the first always feels fresh and new, the latter is usually fun, i'd hope.

i remembered reading somewhere that especially in long-term relationships it's important to look at the partner each day with fresh eyes, as if to get rid of any preconceptions about them and especially expectations of them that tend to ruin relationships. that's not to say, to ignore your own expectations of any given relationship, but more in line with what diamant said, to neither let the haze of infatuation cloud your judgment, nor let the "image" of someone you've known for years mask who this person is becoming or changing into through their own personal journey. and this leads me to line 6, which usually tells me something about my own attitude and maybe in this case is a hint towards losing this mistrust towards self and others, which influences one's confidence. and i'd think that is something to be accepted within, though i can't be sure if it applies here.

i don't know if it helps, but anytime i feel either insecure or somewhat entitled about someone i find rereading this manifesto quite helpful, i think some of it it applies to different forms of relationships not just anarchy or polyamory. and when it comes to finding where i stand with someone sternberg's triangular theory of love usually helps me clarify where things are heading, so to speak.

 

[marybluesky]

Thanks Legume!
I appreciate this manifesto. It's indeed very in line with what I feel these days & the path I'm willing to go in the field of love/romance/sex.

 

[moss elk]

I feel like a dumb naive person immerged in romantic fantasies (read illusions) who just woke up at 31 to see everyone else has mastered the adult life games while she's been happily dreaming in her childish world.

Oh Mary,
I can assure you that the 'Mastering-of-Adulting' is not quite as prevalent as you feel it is.
Even among 41 and 51 year olds. Many people just throw spaghetti and stick with presenting a face.
(Perhaps that sentence is intelligible to someone other than m.e.)

Don't ever envy anyone else.
I would guess you spent your twenties with your nose in books.
Think of all the knowledge you acquired during that time.
That's something to admire.
Other twenty somethings engage in multiple relationships with....wait for it...
Immature people, who do immature things, like infidelity, drug & alcohol abuse..etc
Or with older men (who are immature!) Otherwise they wouldn't chase youngsters.
So, you were spared some of that.
It is the easiest thing in the world for a female to invite a males attention,
It's exponentially harder making them go away.

And here is something I tell all young women:
You can make the world (human beings overall, society) a better place by being very selective in choosing partners. If you settle for a jerk, the jerk, will never have to work to improve himself.
Think of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysistrata

Line 2 from your reading says you are old enough now for a relationship.

 

[marybluesky]

Oh Mary,
Many people just throw spaghetti and stick with presenting a face.
(Perhaps that sentence is intelligible to someone other than m.e.)

It's totally intelligible for me, a matter of style, you know.

I didn't spend my twenties with my nose exactly in the books. Let's face it: I've been definitely more imaginative and interested in abstract ideas than the average young people. Some texts exhilarated me though I wasn't a bookworm in its proper sense; rather a person fascinated by some artworks/ideas every now & then who tended to immerge herself in that world.
Looking back, I didn't know how to live on the earth. Seriously. I wanted love, but when a guy I fancied smiled at me in the library I did nothing, just fancied him more.
Once a professor asked me to put away the theories/translation and go enjoy my life and I thought why he couldn't understand I enjoyed it. I imagined it was the right thing to do at those days.
That's the summery of my love life in my twenties.

And here is something I tell all young women:
You can make the world (human beings overall, society) a better place by being very selective in choosing partners. If you settle for a jerk, the jerk, will never have to work to improve himself.
Think of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysistrata

With all due respect, I don't agree with your point of view on women and sex, as presented in the link you shared.

Women enjoy & need sex like men do. They have desires like men have. It's not a strategical weapon, nor women are the sacred goddesses responsible for maintaining the society.
To be honest, this mentality of "giving" & "withholding" sex by women infuriates me, as it totally ignores the women's needs & identity and reduce them to sexless species unable to enjoy anything by their own who however should give/withhold/sacrifice their body & resources for the "higher" causes like peace & family. I try to be polite but all these exploitative ideas disgust me. Why does a woman is considered abused if she is left after a one night stand, but not if she's been deprived of sex in the name of dignity during her young, lustful years, then turned to a mother figure who again doesn't have the right to freely enjoy her sexuality because it has a negative effect on her children, while her man sleeps around?

I don't want to be the goddess/mother. I want to live a full life. I have the right to.

I don't intend to offend you, but such ideas seem too humiliating for me to remain silent as they grant the right of sexual pleasure exclusively to men & don't seem to understand how belittling it feels to women.

Line 2 from your reading says you are old enough now for a relationship.

)
Amen.

 

[moss elk]

With all due respect, I don't agree with your point of view on women and sex.

How could you possibly agree or disagree?
(Since I didn't express any opinions on sex or women)

I spoke only about maturity, immaturity,
the simplicity of males in general, and the virtues of selectivity.

I fear you've tried to paint me into a corner where I do not dwell.

 

[marybluesky]

How could you possibly agree or disagree?
(Since I didn't express any opinions on sex or women)

By reading the link you shared to confirm your ideas.

 

[moss elk]

I hear that sex makes one more relaxed,
and less uptight.

 

[marybluesky]

I hear that sex makes one more relaxed,
and less uptight.

Yes.
So we basically say the same thing: if I hasn't been deprived of sex for such a long time I wouldn't be here now arguing with you as the problem didn't exist at first place.
I take your irony and it doesn't insult me: if I didn't recognize the existence of such a problem I didn't make threads on it. And this forum isn't the only place I discuss it: I openly say to people around me how wrong had been the lifestyle I had up to these last months and my advice to younger people is not to do what I've done. It's much more harmful than it seems.

Now I'm trying to change my situation, practically & systematically.

And we return to the starting point: (most) other people have learned how to live better than me, and I'm the naïve one who attempts, falls and is disappointed but tries to stand up.

 

[legume]

And we return to the starting point: (most) other people have learned how to live better than me, and I'm the naïve one who attempts, falls and is disappointed but tries to stand up.

i feel (i might be wrong here) that m.e.'s point was that most of the people who you (might) believe to have already learned how to "live better" didn't really learn all that much. by throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks or playing the field one doesn't necessarily arrive at the right conclusions or exercise any actual values and so quite often these people still miss out on good relationships and the right person to spend their life with (and quite likely only continue wrong patterns they learned in their youth), but because they wasted their time doing so, they keep up the appearance of being somehow more "experienced" which is pretty much just a facade for their own insecurities. i often find that the more "experienced" someone presents themselves to be, the more lost and less grounded they actually are... otoh people who are honest about their inexperience and insecurities are at least honest enough with themselves to accept the fact and i'd think it can actually be a sign of maturity or at least personal growth.

there's also this advice i keep in mind, to try not to compare myself with others, but only to compare myself with who i was yesterday. there's no point losing energy envying somebody else's life, we only get a glimpse at what their life appears to be, while we can only truly know our own life and experience.

and then also, yes, i know quite a few "mature" men, at least age-wise, who, when i got to know closer, turn out to be just made up of a bunch of insecurities, constantly deriving their sense of self from the outside world and being too scared to ever look within. they might do well in life, very well even, but are they really mature? imo - no.

 

[redoleander]

If you've read my previous posts, you know about my limited experience in romantic/ sexual areas. Now that I've decided to jump in the pool, I'm very annoyed by the fact that even people several years younger than me are considerably more experienced, have had several partners & various types of relationships.

It hurts. Really.

I feel like a dumb naive person immerged in romantic fantasies (read illusions) who just woke up at 31 to see everyone else has mastered the adult life games while she's been happily dreaming in her childish world.

Not that I expected others to have as few experiences as I, but it hurts my confidence to
see someone about a decade younger than me talking about his numerous sexual encounters who doesn't bother calling and spending time with me because he doesn't care about things other than sex as he's sick of romantic relationships. WTF.

Then where's my place in this field? Everyone I meet has had his share of romantic relationships and now just wants sex, whether he's in his early 20s or late 30s; and they are people I've known for years & thought I could form a romantic relationship with.

Very shitty.

I talked with the I Ching about feeling insecure because of this and got: 4.2.6>2

What does the advice mean? That I accept the ignoramus without much judgement?

Hi Mary

I think that Line 6 might be pointing to the need to accept their poor judgement and your poor judgment, equally. They're not wrong and neither are you. Just lacking in alignment. Personally I wouldn't read acceptance as encouragement to get further entangled with any of these people. Rather to simply see things for what they are (you are) without a lot of attached value judgements including toward yourself. Truthfully, you don't know exactly where you'd be at now or how you'd be feeling had you entered this part of life earlier. I say this with no intention to invalidate your feelings. The feelings are valid. The conclusions, though, are just a guess really. You might be totally over dating and choosing to take time on your own! Who can say, too many possibilities.

I think Line 2 is saying that you actually are having beneficial experiences right now, just not in the way you wish them to be. You are, in fact, gaining experience in areas where you previously only had ignorance. You are learning more about what people are actually like romantically (a lot of people can be great friends and terrible lovers or partners!) and that's going to be painful because fantasy will crash down... but that's dating! For everyone, experienced or not. Only a few months in and already seeing more clearly who really is not for you. I wouldn't force it. Ill-fitting connections get worse than at the start, not better.

You're learning, you're in the early stages, some of the lessons are bound to make you feel stupid. But you're not actually. Dating isn't easy for anyone and figuring out how to identify/find what you want takes people years to decades. Something that can only be done through practice so long as that practice involves making choice in earnest (not intentionally sending yourself down the wrong path because that's all that seems to be available).

 

[marybluesky]

i feel (i might be wrong here) that m.e.'s point was that most of the people who you (might) believe to have already learned how to "live better" didn't really learn all that much.

I took that & was reading Moss Elk's post lightheartedly with a smile on my face until I opened the link he shared & presented as a good example of how women can serve the society by being selective.

Just to clarify, it's an ancient story about women "withholding" sex from men to reach "peace". I don't go into details. You can take a look at it if you want. That's where my view clashes badly with M.E's.

My argument about his views on sex is based on the page's content, not what he has written here.

I have no idea about maturity and immaturity. And don't prefer mature people in particular, maybe as I'm rather immature myself. My point was to experience life & enjoy it.

 

[legume]

oops, i somehow misread your response, sorry. i checked out lysistrata but tbh got stuck on the "lioness" and the "cheese grater" part

well okay, it can come across as a chauvinistic piece considering in ancient times only male actors would perform and most likely view the play, yet there's a grain of truth even in such satire. i can't help but find the idea that blueballing a whole army could stop the war quite funny... nowadays male athletes are told not to have sex before a fight or a big sporting event to perform better and get more worked up. and even though it's not scientifically supported most of them listen to their coaches as it seems to work, possibly since number 1 reward for men is... sex and not the actual win. so they might lose motivation if they get their reward beforehand.

and i guess the fact that this simple truth of life has been known for centuries as empowering women still stands for something... btw, apparently the play got banned in ancient greece for its anti-war message and it was censored in the US until 1930s

my point re immaturity was brought about by hex 4, which in a way deals with the subject. maybe it's more to do with inexperience but what i was trying to say is the observation that admitting to one's immaturity is quite often, imo, actually a sign of maturity. example, a friend in his late 30s who's certain he's experienced and talks about his life as if he knows-it-all, that to me is a sign of immaturity (and hidden insecurities). a friend in his 50s who all of a sudden stops such behaviour and admits he's still quite immature - my thought, oh wow, maybe he's finally growing up! and i see a reflection of this in hex 4 too.

Wilhelm comments on 4.2 "These lines picture a man who has no external power, but who has enough strength of mind to bear his burden of responsibility. [...] Only this combination of inner strength with outer reserve enables one to take on the responsibility of directing a larger social body with real success."

i'd understand directing a larger social body here as maintaining a relationship and combination of inner strength and outer reserve as the sort of maturity i mentioned (maybe maturity is not a good word), knowing who to pick and not worrying too much about yours vs the other person's "level" of experience.

 

[marybluesky]

Thanks for your input, though we have different points of view.