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Fortune Cookies and Instinct

lindsay

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Hi everybody,

Yesterday I ate lunch at my favorite Chinese restaurant. When lunch was finished, the waiter brought my bill with a fortune cookie. Inside the sweet, crunchy cookie was a slip of paper that read: "You should learn to trust your instincts more often." Two things came into my mind.

First, taking my "fortune" seriously (I always pay attention to these things), I wondered what "trusting one's instincts" really meant? Not too long ago I brought up the issue of intuition and the I Ching on Clarity (thank you very much, LiSe and Candid for your very interesting responses!), and now I wondered what the difference was between "intuition" and "instinct." Are they the same thing? Somehow I thought instinct is more primal, more genetically encoded, than intuition -- our animal heritage, far more basic than the Yi. Food, sex, safety, dominance, that sort of thing. But paying attention to instinct "feels" a lot like following one's intuition. Do you think the Yi operates on the instinctual level?

The second thing I thought about is, Why should I take a fortune cookie so seriously? What after all is the difference between fortune cookie divination and the I Ching? Both are random, both claim to tell us something we need to know about our current situation. Yet one is considered a silly superstition, and the other is revered as ancient wisdom. How can this be? Does anyone else read their daily horoscope in the newspaper? Is that legitimate divination? Or is it "junk" divination, the same way McDonalds serves "junk" food? I have no control over these "Pop" divinations, just as the Yi is beyond my control. They come out of the blue, and I am inclined to consider them as possibly significant. But how does this fit into the very formal idea of divination usually associated with the I Ching?

I would really like to know what people versed in the Yi think about "Pop" divination. Be honest. Do you think about your fortune cookie slips or not? What about that daily horoscope?

Chop stick amateur,
Lindsay
 
C

chris

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Lindsay,

at the level of the species - your instincts - there seems to be two primary instincts whose original intent was to protect you:

(1) EVERY sensation is POTENTIALLY meaningful.
(2) EVERY sensation is POTENTIALLY linked to others.

Exaggerate these and you enter the realm of mind and a focus on "what could be" and in turn 'remove' the word 'potential' from the above. Exploit these instincts and you find emerge pop divinations (and those daily horoscopes) as well as institutionalised religion/science!

What makes the IC 'better' than most systems is its rich structure and content and allows you to be reactive and develop by getting over the total lack of not knowing 'what could be' to reach a level of knowing that includes asking questions and getting 'meaningful' answers rather than being fobbed-off with some 'new-speak'.

Instincts are habits of the species. Habits are habits of the individual/collective and as such created within the lifetime of the individual/collective. Instincts are NOT replacable, habits can be - well sort of in that they are not forgotten ;-)

Intuition is the ability to be pushed by well learnt habits and well developed instincts - they talk to you from the realm of the everyday rather than from the realm of our exaggerated minds and as such are felt and are implicit. Thus they are at times hard to decode especially if you spend much time in the realm of exaggerations and so constant conversations that can drown-out 'you'.

Fortune cookies, daily astrology charts etc exploit the 'what could be?' nature of our species as we are always 'looking' for something ;-) and at the GENERAL level we can 'link the dots' to identify the chart/cookie as containing meaning applicable to the moment. That linkage is rooted in the above two instincts and their exaggeration.

Best,

Chris.
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting
 
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chris

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Pity Einstein was not aware of the neurocognitive processes of his species ;-) the quotes are fine in the context of his time - they are not universals in that times change and even his work is now under review based on more recent discoveries (e.g. speed of light being faster in the past than now - which in the context of exaggerations being pulled back into a state of balance would 'fit'.)

Note also how our physiological processes are unconsciously expressed in our mind-made maps - e.g. the reciprocal relationship of energy to subjective time experience in that the process of high detail analysis forces a mechanistic perspective of time that allows for the concepts to emerge of a sense of the 'eternal' as well as even the irreversibility of time - delusions due to the METHOD of analysis. The mentioned relationship is identified in Relativity Physics as a property of extreme, non-classical conditions - the problem is we can identify this relationship operating in our physiology in classic conditions.

See more at http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/light.html

there are some MAJOR paradigm shifts developing with the data from neurocognitive research and you need to be wary of what hex 26 talks about - appreciating traditional perspectives in their support of our development as a species but avoid trying to introduce them as 'facts' in the current times - they are 'warm' thoughts at best. Change is inevitable - as the IC shows... and in our times our cherished beliefs can change overnight whereas in the past the change was over centuries...


Best,

Chris.
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting
 
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candid

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Chris,

The links were for Clarity?s members in general and in response to Lindsay?s interesting questions. I surely didn?t present Einstein?s thoughts on the subject as a be all ? end all dogma. There are points he made that I personally do not agree with, but it doesn?t negate the value of his words nor of considering further his thoughts.

I?m sure that your ideas would have greater influence if you demonstrated a willingness to converse rather than impose, you know, allow some room for exchange rather than to dominate each thread with your own emphatic world views.

An old pastor friend of mine had a saying: ?How you are speaks so loudly I can?t hear a word you say.? I can?t help but believe that you?re better than that.

Asylums are full of brilliant people who have never learned the skill of communicating their ideas in a comprehensible manner. Perhaps you really are over our heads. Then again, perhaps you grossly underestimate the life experience and intelligence of those who share this forum.

~Candid
 

lindsay

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Dear Candid,

Amen, Brother Candid. I couldn?t agree with you more. One of the truly refreshing things about Clarity is that it brings together many different people to talk and listen respectfully. No doubt there is room here for Chris Lofting and his ideas, but surely not as the final arbiter of every thread? Many will find Chris?s ideas interesting, but personally I would like to hear more from others in their own voices. In the realm of the intellect, I believe in a simple formula: ?One person, one vote.? No more, no less. Our lives are our only authentic credentials.

Thanks for the links to those Einstein quotes. I am amazed he was such a religious person. I always imagine there is some sort of impenetrable conceptual wall between science and the spiritual. Perhaps I am naïve, and the lion and lamb can lie down together in the peaceable kingdom of our common humanity.

Lindsay
 
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chris

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It would be good Candid if you could at least tie your comments to the I Ching, a reference perhaps ;-) I always do so and I am sure you may have noticed but you seem to find that a problem perhaps? Please identify where I have 'imposed' anything - I originally commented to a post dealing with fortune telling. I referred to the IC in that. On this thread and on others you seem to lack the IC references in your comments.

As for Linday's comments - uncalled for in that I am free to comment to any thread as all others are. Perhaps Lindsay you could respond to what I said in my sincere reply to your post rather than get on Candid's "flame chris lofting" bandwagon.
If you DONT want me to comment then say so - your email was addressed to everyone...

I dont see how I dominate anything - this is a free list and people can write whatever, whenever (although with some reference to the I Ching!) I have no control of anything so I dont see how I can dominate... it is all compromise...

note the different characteristics of hexagram 06 vs hexagram 36 -

http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/111010.html vs http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/000101.html

hugs and kisses,

Chris.
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting
 
C

candid

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No Chris, this is a flame:

Yes, you are of course correct, this is an open forum, and although I?d have banned you long ago, just as you?ve been banned from every other I Ching site you?ve chosen to impose your bizarre ramblings upon, it isn?t for me to decide. Its sad that you?ve waited for the hostess to take her well deserved vacation before attempting your incendiary assault to dismantle this otherwise cooperative and friendly group. Are you this much a bully in real life? I rather doubt it since you would have learned your lesson by having the living daylights kicked out you. Its fortunate though that sooner or later truth prevails and darkness eventually consumes itself. Personally, I?m done with kid gloves where you are concerned. You don?t listen to friendly advice and ignore polite attempts to integrate you successfully into this otherwise productive discourse of civil conversation. I suppose it means nothing to you that participation from our less active members have come to a complete standstill. Who could blame them from withdrawing when you run roughshod over everyone else?s thoughts and ideas, as though you alone in your megalomania hold the exclusive key to I Ching comprehension.

What would you like for us to do, Chris, gather at your feet in adoration of your superior intellect and advanced understanding of the ?human species? and our ?gullibility?? Shall we vow to denounce our ?primitive? understanding of synchronicity, personal beliefs in God and literal communion with deity through divination? Shall we instead worship you for your brilliant and superior comprehensions?

You will no doubt continue your ?push? until you are either banned or have successfully discouraged the majority of Clarity?s members from holding together, which I really doubt will happen. Perhaps there are still some here who are willing to give you the benefit of the many doubts which you create. I?m certainly not counted among them.

Lots of luck.
 

heylise

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I went back to Lindsay's first mail.

I have been thinking about instinct and intuition, and I think they cannot be compared. Instinct is one of our tools to cope with life, like thinking is, or seeing, feeling and so on. Every single one has limitations. Instincts cannot guide you safely through a trip by airplane from New York to Singapore. Seeing is not enough to avoid decayed food. Your nose cannot tell a lie (well - my dogs nose seems to be able to, gave someone a nice blue bruise on his backside) and thinking cannot enjoy music.

Intuition is the ability to combine these tools. Something like hear-see-think-feel-smelling. It is not aimed at enjoying life, all the ?tools? can (apart from survival) be used for that, but only at surviving. What I like especially about it: it is not only for bodily survival, but also for mental and spiritual survival. So nature?s aim is not only that we as individuals or species survive, but also our mind and soul.

The advice of the fortune cookie was probably: sleep when you need sleep, eat when you need food, and don?t hurt your body and mind all the time, like we all do. We all work too long, or go on dreadful visits we ?ought? to go to, we are polite to horrible people, we do all kinds of things our instinct warns us for.

I think the Yi talks to one?s intuition. Encompassing instinct too, and all the other tools.

Lindsay said: Why should I take a fortune cookie so seriously? I think it is great to take it seriously, but not as telling you the future. Everywhere one encounters signs, wisdom, or maybe something trivial, which tells you all the same something important. Not because it is important in itself, but because it triggers something in you. What it does in you, that is the future, and the fortune. One who picks up all these signs creates a fortunate future.

For me, that is also the value of the Yi. It tells things which you can pick up, and thus it helps to create a good fortune.
I always thought it simply said something in such a way that it was always triggering response. But now I am more and more convinced that it actually gives an answer appropriate to the situation. My ?thinking? says this is not possible, but my intuition likes it.

LiSe
 

lindsay

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Dear LiSe,

Thank you very much for your thoughtful response. Reacting to the tone of some recent postings, my instincts were whipping me up to jump headlong into ?fight or flight? mode ? but my intuition was telling me to stay cool and let the storm pass by. Then your calm voice came through to remind me how many things are worth thinking and talking about in a gentle way. So I ignored my primitive instincts (and my fortune cookie slip), and followed my intuition instead. Who says you have to follow every oracle?

I think you are right that instinct is part of our human ?operating system?, like our senses and our minds. I think of it as a kind of ?auto-pilot? that looks after the most basic matters involved in our welfare. I also see instinct as essentially amoral ? it?s only consideration is maintaining and protecting us as organisms. But intuition seems far more subtle. It alerts us to shades and nuances of meaning. Very often I rely on it to figure out the right thing to do in a confusing situation. Some situations ?feel? good, others do not. The Yi definitely helps with this sort of perception.

?For me, that is also the value of the Yi. It tells things which you can pick up, and thus it helps to create a good fortune.? How true! It almost seems that the more aspects or facets or possibilities we can perceive in any situation, the more successful and fortunate we will be. Not in the ?get rich quick? sense, but in our ability to remain in tune with the Tao. It is easier to float down the river than to paddle across it or struggle against the current. The trick is seeing the current.

?I always thought it (the Yi) simply said something in such a way that it was always triggering response. But now I am more and more convinced that it actually gives an answer appropriate to the situation. My ?thinking? says this is not possible, but my intuition likes it.? Exactly my experience, although I am just beginning to be aware of the Yi?s singular appropriateness. Don?t you think there may be stages of growth involved with using the Yi? My thinking has changed many times since I first opened the book. Often I have doubted its value and felt frustration, but again my intuition always suggested there was something worth knowing or having or understanding in the Yi. Perhaps it is important to realize the Yi we use today will not be the Yi we know tomorrow.

Lindsay
 
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chris

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Candid - your comments are interesting in their intensity. I have never written in your style in that any criticism I have made of anyone is in regard to their 'misconceptions' of the I Ching.

Re my banishments from 'traditional' IC lists:

I gave hilary a hard time on the midaughter list because she offered people a 'hexagram for the day' as a prediction of events and in doing this 'ill considered' act got her into trouble when one client got hexagram 11 and during the day his mother had a heart attack - he was, justifiably, pissed-off. I made the point that the emphasis is on supplying a hexagram for the day to USE as a filter to deal with the day NOT to use hexagrams as predictions of what your day will be like! IOW if she had presented the perspective as the IC being a way to perceive reality rather than some 'magical' system that knows reality and in particular the local events of the day, she would not have gotten into trouble in that her client would have seen the day through hexagram 11 and so when his mother had the attack he would have been focused on maintaining balance given the situation rather than being upset with the I Ching and so have been a 'rock' to support his mother and family.

My focus was on the fact that hilary was at that time selling the I Ching in an 'unwise' manner that brought disrepute to the IC as a whole and to her development in particular. As I have said before she is combining her MA skills plus the I Ching into a business but in doing so it is important to ensure you know what you are doing. She is honest enough to realise this ( I think...) and seems to be actively 'refining' her skills.

For my comments (see the archives of that list for around April last year I think) I was asked to leave midaughter, which was fine by me since that request ment that Mary et al had no idea what I was talking about and took my comments and some sort of personal attack on hilary. No. THe focus was on hilary's approach to selling the I Ching in a way that would benefit her and I suggested at the time to change the perspective to that of a 'hexagram for the day' as a form of pathwork, to 'see' reality through the filter of a particular hexagram which is what you are supposed to do.

About 1996 or so I was 'banned' from the hexagram-8 list for demonstrating what happens when you put values ahead of facts in that a particularly over-educated individual was pushing values. I set-up an email that abused him in the first part an then emphasised the 'by now you should be upset and this is why - values ahead of facts' in the second part. It backfired in that the list manager (whom he supported) got upset as well! I have a page on the old website about this - one of the essays off

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond/essays.html

it covers the perspective through the use of hexagrams - e.g. 2 before 1, 12 before 11 etc.

I left Ray Langely's yahoo list out of choice, despite his request I stay, to set up my own.

(http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/ichingplus )

You should go through the archives some time - you might learn something about the IC as well as the development processes of IC+ etc and, yes, we do have arguments but all in a manner focused on the IC.

As in all of these lists I have 'upset' the traditionalists and will continue to do so in that they need waking up! Your 'flame' of me is interesting in that it reflects one on the hexagram-8 list where the individual did later appologise in that he said he had a MSc degree, an intense interest in the I Ching (20+ years and lots of books) and had an interest in problem solving in general (I recall he was into Sherlock Holmes style detective stuff etc)

He said his problem with me was that I made him feel like an idiot. This is an unfortunate consequence of the intensity of my work, its revelations, together with the psychology of those who have issues re trust in themselves.

They need to drop the 'primitive' perspectives. GROW UP if you know the IC and teach those who dont know!

EVERY person on all of the IC lists has the brain power to move on - and that is what the IC is about, about change. Even you, 'dearest' Candid, have the skills to move on, to take the IC way beyond its 'primitive' roots and so participate in the change. Augment (42), Concentrate (41) Commit (32) Invigorate (34), Transform (50), Spread the Word (43), Persuade/Seduce (44)... etc etc etc

As to my making comments whilst hilary is away - sorry I am not that devious (although you thought of it so you seem to have some issues with trust in general) However it does seem that a lot of you feel I am 'bizarre' etc so I will leave you to your 'primitive' reflections - I will not comment on this list again, I will leave you Candid to 'run' the show as you wish, but i get the vibe that your dislike of me is more so an example of my making you feel like an idiot re understanding the IC - by this I mean you HAVE to call me 'bizarre' etc since otherwise you have to recognise the FACT that in your IC studies you have missed over 50% of what is going on - BUT to me there is no problem with that in that most will, since no one - until I - has uncovered what is BEHIND the IC and so been able to flesh-out the IC.

To realise the work I have done, and in passing realise what you have missed, is a discovery and you can move-on from that. I am not interested in people at my feet, more interested in a focus on helping the species rather than myself. But to realise the work and then ignore it since it threatens your ego is deceit of the highest degree - both of yourself and others who listen to you.

I think perhaps you realise this and in so doing are perhaps jealous of my work or else are pissed-off with yourself for 'missing' things - or both.
Time to grow up Candid, or else become more and more 'extreme' in your views as time moves on and changes occur ... and in the end you ask "what happened?..why didnt..." etc sad stuff Candid.

Bye Bye everyone.

Chris.
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting
 

julianne

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well, um, I'm not really from here, so I'll jump square into the heart of the question (which is brought here so from here?...)

Me, I always feel so fortunate when the whole holy whole finds a way to get my attention, no easy task in this day and age. OK, so I do throw up the periodic barrier...

If totality wants to deliver the message, I want to hear! Have I not honed these ears for years with tools and texts? Each breathing day I get more info - out of my carburator, my kids report cards, the Ching (duh), and the leaves/dreams/dog hair. If a fortune cookie gets through I say hallelujah! Tao of egg foo young.

Sometimes I am tricked into listening by receiving information where I must question all circumstances. Nobody likes an oracle who's easy.
 

louise

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If he, Chris, has really really gone, for ever,and ever, then Candid has performed a very valuable function for this site.
 

lindsay

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Dear Julianne,

Thanks for your posting and welcome to Clarity! I?m not really ?from here? either, but Clarity?s Friends are so generous and supportive it?s easy to feel at home. I?m glad you dropped by.

Sometimes I imagine the world is full of signs, signals, and omens for those who know how to read them. I don?t just mean psychological catalysts that trigger unconscious perceptions and processes that help us land on our feet. I mean honest and open messages from . . . somewhere . . . out there. Sometimes I think there is . . . something . . . that cares about our fates and maybe wishes us well. The problem is communication. For whatever reason, we find it difficult to make contact. This is the great value of the I Ching, which serves as one tried-and-true link to the unknown. Again, I suggest that divination does not ?feel? like talking to myself (which I do a lot, so I know what that ?feels? like!).

Fortunately, before I ever go too far with this line of thinking, my rational brain jumps up and pulls the plug. Nothing like this is possible, is it? Scientifically impossible! Contrary to common sense! Unrealistic daydreaming!

Julianne wrote: ?Sometimes I am tricked into listening by receiving information where I must question all circumstances. Nobody likes an oracle who's easy.?

I really think your ?nobody likes an oracle who?s easy? is an important insight. When we feel the need for divination, why don?t we reduce all our issues to yes-or-no questions, and flip a coin? Why don?t we set simple conditions for oracles (?I will do such-and-such if I see a white car in the next five minutes?). Instead, we resort to difficult procedures and complicated systems. I Ching, tarot, astrology, etc. are our most potent and satisfying methods. Even within these systems, many people feel the more complicated and difficult the procedure, the more valid the result. So turtle shells are better than yarrow sticks, but yarrow sticks are superior to coins, and coins are more reliable than marbles, etc. A really good Yi reading will decompose the resulting hexagram into 15 or 20 other ?component? hexagrams and trigrams, and analyze the results six ways til Sunday. Almost no one resolves difficult problems by pulling petals off a daisy. ?Nobody likes an oracle who?s easy.?

Why?

Lindsay
 

hilary

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Hello all,

I'm still sort-of on holiday, but just starting to get things back together. I see things have been moving on in my absence...

Anyway, Chris is a tad confused over what happened on the Midaughter list. I didn't post any hexagrams for the day - LiSe did, for a while. I'm a huge fan of LiSe's work in general, but not so much of the idea of I Ching as calendar.

But most importantly: the hexagram 11 incident was NOT about a client of mine, but someone who'd already posted this reading of his own on a public list. I don't - ever - publish any details of clients' readings.

For the rest, like Chris says, there are always the archives.
(A lot of the other things he says about me are true. I believe that the I Ching's answers are truthful by the grace of God. Maybe this, too, can be slotted into Chris's System
wink.gif
.)

Now, back to the unpacking etc. There's so much I want to read and enjoy here, but I may have to disappear into that techno-pit again for a while.

*waving*
 

heylise

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Hilary is right. Everything Chris says in his last mail is complete rubbish.
LiSe
 

julianne

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Hi again Lindsey-

Where I was going was that slang about a person being easy, giving it up easily. The assumption is that there is value in working for something. Some work is easy, this is true, but let's return to the notion of 'to work for somthing' v. something being handed you. Here is the answer- wait, where's the fun in that?

It furthers....me, I further when I unravel, rejoin, weave, beribbon. The road traveled, the process, is the destination. The process of comprehension, The processing of material, in both the petition and the oracular response, is one in which I engage past, present, future, myth, perspective, experience, desire etc. into a lens through which I can communicate with Life/Creation/Tao. The answer is in the experience. I like this, it serves as the backbone for the type of perception I have become most acquainted with this time round. And I like it. One becomes intimate on the road toward intimacy. Oooh- important word. Becomes.

Does the answer become in relation to you? What do you think? What does the Ching offer in regards to a petitioner/oracle relationship that the crazy eight ball does not? ps I'm too far along to go back and check - I fear my message will be eaten - but I hope I spelled your pretty name right.
 

lindsay

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Dear Julianne,

I love your language, but I am a man cast in the concrete of prosiness. To say the journey is the destination does not preclude one from thinking about (wondering about, really) every lonely mile, every brown-gravy restaurant, every smoke-dried motel room along the way.

Isn't it a law of living that nothing is free, nothing is worth anything that doesn't cost something? I never thought about this in terms of divination, but of course it is obvious now you call attention to it. Thanks.

As for "becoming", I have this idea that the I Ching is a little like those old Polaroid cameras. You snapped the shot, then you pulled out the picture and watched it slowly develop before your eyes. At first a kind of cloudy purple vagueness, then miraculously, shapes sharpen and colors, until there is an exact image of a lost moment in time. Sometimes I think by the time I understand what the Yi is telling me, it is too late.

Thanks for liking my name. In the schoolyard, many years ago, I would have given anything to be just another Tom, Dick or Harry. Now, in a world full of Tom, Dick, and Harrys, I cannot think of myself as anyone but

Lindsay
 

julianne

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Lindsay-
what then does the I Ching cost?

Julianne
 

lindsay

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Dear Julianne,

This is a hard question. I do not think I can give you an honest answer. I have not balanced the books lately, and - as everyone knows by now - it is not wise to be too forthcoming about one?s accounting practices these days.

Perhaps the whole metaphor is flawed. In a sense, we pay a price for everything we do, because by doing one thing, we are not able to do something else under the same circumstances. Whenever we make a choice, we pay the price of having to live with the result. By choosing to consult the Yi, we give up an opportunity to deal with a situation without its input, free of its influence. Of course the reverse is also true. If we do not use the Yi, we will never receive whatever help it can offer. So much for revealing the obvious.

I do not know of any harmful side-effects that come directly from using the Yi. There do not seem to be any known physical problems or diseases linked to its use. The Yi?s psychological effects are difficult to assess, but no one in the mental health biz seems particularly concerned about it. Naturally, the Yi can be abused ? but can you think of anything that cannot?

The trick, I think, is learning to use the Yi skillfully. Skillful use of the Yi will reveal what benefits it is capable of giving. The proof is in the pudding. Over and over you hear the same thing among skilled users: ?I use the Yi because it works, it helps, and it causes no harm.?

Do skilled users pay a price for using the Yi? Of course. But most would say, I believe, that for them the cost of knowing the Yi and not using it is far greater.

Lindsay
 

julianne

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Lindsay-
Wow, beautiful response. So careful. I love the image of influence-free action being precious as well. As a professional reader of stars, cards and thars, I always recall that Cassandra was given the gift of prophesy as a curse. What you don't want to see always costs more than you think you can pay.

It is delightful to approach this from value rather than cost. Thanks for that. I have seen some mighty happy people pass the road of inquiry right by.

as for health hazards - confess! - who among us has not, deaf from busy mind or terror, developed repetitive stress syndrome from tossing those coins?

Julianne
 
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golnar

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what do you people mean by "Yi" ? And I really didn't see what was all the fuss about in regard to that guy named Chris but then I come from Persia and maybe a lot of all your conversations was lost on me. What I wanted to say is that he did seem a tad arrogant and childish but one should be more forebearing. I have just happened to even see this page so maybe it's not for me to judge. But I think that in view of your having recognized his "childishness" you should have all been more compassionate. Remember that every fault we see in other people is a reflection of our own personality. If any of you took offence and/or even noted his behaviour, then you have to "become the change you want to see in the world"

golnar

PS: please dont pay any attention to my capitals
happy.gif
 

kts

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Dear Golnar,
Your message comes at the end of a long-running discussion which I must admit I did not follow in total.

To answer your questions: 'Yi' is just the shortened form of 'Yi Jing' which contributors to these pages use. 'I Ching' and 'Yi Jing' are different transliterations of the Chinese title of The Book of Changes. 'Yi Jing' is in the pinyin transliteration, which is more up to date.

As far as I understand it, Chris Lofting, who has his own site, views I Ching as a sort of set of templates against which to set your own thinking (it's more complicated than that, I know), but definitely not with assistance from any kind of supernatural source. The quarrel that other people seem to have had with him was
1)the abstract language he uses, and the length of his contributions - they were bewildering to most readers-
and 2)his insistence on removing the 'magical' or supernatural aspect from the use of I Ching. In his view, any hexagram could be applied to any situation with equal validity. It felt to some as if he was looking down on anyone who didn't have his 'grown-up' view.
Some contributors are more au fait with the history of this than I am, and may want to add to or correct my answer.
 
C

candid

Guest
Dear golnar and Kts,

I had no problem with Chris' view points at all; everyone has a right to their own. The only problem I had was his constant berating which more than bordered on malicious intent toward the forum and anyone who viewed things differently than himself. There are time a child needs to be reprimanded. His leaving was by his own choice, though I must admit it didn't hurt me (or the forum, I believe) one bit.

My own view is that the very term, supernatural, if interpreted literally, defies nature or is something in addition to "what is", meaning what isn't. At the same time, what is isn't just what we see, think or perceive, so the paradigm is outside our typical perceptions, unless of course we learn to expand our perception to include those things. Hence, we have terms to help bridge our understanding like, belief, spiritual or God. I have no problem with any of those terms, though they may mean something different to someone else than what they might mean to me. To me, I make no distinction or separation between the term God and the term inner truth. The Devine nature of God is the very same divinity which we each contain. There is merely the observer and the observed. I perceive that we are each and collectively both. And also to my perception, this is the essence of #1 and #2 - Yang and Yin.

"Life goes on within you and without you." ~ George Harrison

Namaste,
(The Devine in me honors the Devine in you.)

Candid
 

lindsay

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Dear Candid,

Thank you so much for this lucid little paragraph on the ?supernatural.? You put your finger on exactly the problem I was wrestling with in terms of relating God to the Yi. I was thinking of God as being ?outside? or ?beyond? nature (super-natural), and the Yi as operating very much inside and organic to nature. If anything, I would call the Yi ?hypernatural? because it is more in tune with nature (tao) than we ourselves are. Isn?t this one reason we consult the Yi, to determine the most natural thing to do in any given situation? Some people who use the Yi think that the closer to nature (in their own nature, te) they can get, the better off they will be. I am one of those people. Candid, you really are quite the sage from time to time. Ever consider growing a long gray beard?

Amazed and (somewhat) enlightened,
Lindsay
 

heylise

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Candid needs no beard. He happens to look like a Taoist monk.
LiSe
 

lenardthefast

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Hi Guys,

I just dropped in on this one 'cause I have this, to say about that.

Candid- I haven't been on the site long,so perhaps I'm missing something here with the Chris 'thing'; but, I will offer to all that I feel you were a bit roughshod in your responses.
This being a forum for us all, and all of us hopefully sharing at least ONE important aspect of that forum, our humanity. Perhaps, Chris was a bit relentless and authoritarian in the presentation of his views; but, when examined from an objective perspective, they are still, just his VIEWS, just as valid as any of the myriad VIEWS presented here. And we can chose to read and respond to any contributor. So, whats the problem?
IMHO I believe it would be way too easy to fall into the trap of 'belonging' to a site where the site was perhaps devolving into a mere 'mutual admiration society'.
I have visited Chris' site and have to say that I enjoyed parts of it immensely and was underwhelmed by other parts. I can certainly appreciate the amount of work and commitment expended by Chris on his project and beliefs, and respect him for having the moxie to be,perhaps?, slightly off center from mainstream but not feeling the least bit guilty about that 'aberration', to the contrary, he has the bollocks to get downright authoritarian with it.
I say "Good on ya, Chris"!

So, in one of the few times I find myself disagreeing with you, Candid, I believe a reitteration of Golnars' quote is in order,.."Become the change you wish to see in the world".

Besides, I still love you, even though I thought LiSes' "Taoist monk" an hour or three premature.

In actual fact, I love ALL of you within the group and many more without,(Chris, now relegated to the latter category).

...and thats all my humble opinion, submitted with respect to all humanity caring to consider it.

Namaste,

Leonard
 

hilary

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<FONT SIZE="-2">Small request:
Please, could we not revisit the Chris saga?
Thank you!</FONT>
happy.gif
 
G

golnar

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Dear Candid,
I just wanted you to know that I really enjoyed what you had written about the inner truth. it was lovely. I just wish it was in my power to translate some of the poems the great poets of my country have on the same for you as you would have enjoyed it and maybe it could've put the image all of u guys have of Persia (Iran) and the real islam right. sometimes it really amazes me how close iranian mysticism is to chinese esoteric branches.

just thanks
golnar
 

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