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From Stephen Karcher webinar: Yi misleading us?

Liselle

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Bradford,

Thanks for the reference and tips. I've actually never heard of either of those translations, but now I will promptly forget them! There are so many, and I wouldn't know the wheat from the chaff.

I don't have many translations or other books yet - Wilhelm and Legge downloaded from this site, a couple that I've cribbed from downloaded freebie I Ching software programs, yours from your site (bless you; I think I'll be busy trying to understand all your fascinating material for, oh, decades probably), and I just started looking at LiSe's (bless her too!)

Lisa
 

hilary

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Love Jeff's post!


Brad, since you're around and in sinological mood, could you cast an eye over this thread, please? I would really appreciate your take on it.
 

kevin

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Also in agreement with you Jeff.

Looking at this problem of what amplitude to allow for a reading. Eg is danger of a storm mere discomfort and getting wet or is it possibly life threatening?

Yes, I agree, supplementary questions are often essential in clarifying the answer. In my example above, it was to some degree my choice of supplementary Qs? through which I mislead myself. However it might just have been that I needed to have this ?bad? experience.

However, for me, the stones (I use the marble method) I choose and the text that relates to that choice is a only a part of the divination.

If I have a good connection I will know much more than the answer represented in the text before I even divine. This is something that has developed over time.

An example? I sat down to write an email to a friend last night? I wondered how he was and what he was doing. I thought to consult the oracle on this when my feelings suddenly changed? they became slightly tense, excited and full of good expectation. Next the idea of a woman about to be met came to my mind. Along with other good things. I had connected with him accross a thousand or so miles and sensed his state and what was hapenning.

So I wrote to him and asked him to tell me the gossip and how pleased I was for him. He has written back this morning and told me he is going to meet this good female friend on Monday and he is really looking forward to it.

I am not a psychic as such. This facility grew through using the oracle and other related practices.

I think the question I am trying to answer here is,?What is divination?? and "Where do we focus to make it a fruitful process?"

It is partly the process of ?casting the coins?, It is partly understanding the text, but I think the process of consulting the Yi is also one of stimulating some numenistic knowing part of us which when aroused can see and know and tell.

Whether consulting the Yi is consulting some daemon (inspired knowing self)within us or stimulating it to reach out and communicate with a knowing other, a spirit from another place, is for each to decide for themselves.

But developing this facility, as have quite a number of people here (no names!), is pretty essential for those who want to move beyond the confusion that the text can engender and the issue Hilary raised of not treating the Yi as a 'slot machine' information generator.

This is not to say that work to untangle the text is not important too... but it is different to the task of divination.

--Kevin
 

kevin

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Brad - OK - Ouch - Chuckles.

Ling it is...

--Kevin
 

bradford_h

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Hi Hilary-
I thought I'd offered my take on this already:
that the Yi does not intend anything, to lead or to mislead. The human mind has an amazing power to believe or deny just about anything, if this gives us what we wanted anyway or helps us to self-destruct. As an Occamist, I don't think we need to postulate more intentional entities than this. We are perfectly capable of misleading ourselves and do it all the time.

Lisa (& Val)-
This is a fairly long Laozi bibliography.
It highlights my most and least favorite translations
http://www.hermetica.info/LaoziE.htm
and a whole bunch of full online versions
http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/_IndexTTK.html
 

bradford_h

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Hilary-
oops. I responded to the Email and didn't see you were taking about your Shijing thread.
No, I can't respond. To avoid distractions in my current research I packed up all my Chinese resources, including the Chinese texts and dictionaries I'd need to address this. Sorry.
 

jte

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Thanks for the positive feedback, folks - appreciation is always welcome! ;-)

The below may sound like teasing, but I honestly respect that all views above are the result of careful consideration and experience:

So, I think if you let your numenisim be tempered by a healthy dose of Occamism, you're on the right track.

(So long as you have a dictionary handy.)

:)

- Jeff
 

kevin

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Chuckles Jeff

Agreed.

But I shall quickly put some flesh on the matter before you get your razor out. (for others - c.f. Occam's Razor)

And I shall be carefull - I believe Bruce is armed with a hammer today as well!

The renaissance was a process of liberating our minds from dogma and it allowed us the birth of reason.

It also appears that modern developments in the field of psychology (I will only whisper neuroscience for fear of summoning the dark lord ;) )and physics, for example have necessitated that we now repossess those aspects of ourselves which are necessary in order to continue to explain that which reason has lead us to.

Most definitely we must not re-enter that pre-reason state of superstition and darkness. We are now very well placed to re-examine those other areas and to repossess that which might still be of value.

I think this is a central task for our civilisation. We might be able to gain a spirituality without a dogma. We might be able to gain a moral sense founded on a deep understanding of the human condition rather than rules applied from a grab bag of values and beliefs which are all to readily set aside when it suites us.

All we have to do is learn to suspend our beliefs and try new things ? then to re-apply our modern rational minds to the result.

Just as our forebears had to dare to be rational. We must dare to put reason aside, for a time, and to see the results.

Few talk about the possible drawbacks of Occamism? it is a tested method but can result in someone, who previously never having seen an aeroplane, reduces it to a jet powered car. Such a person might then proudly say ? I must have been right because it works.

--Kevin
 

Liselle

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Kevin: What you described (2 posts ago) sure sounds like psychic ability! Do you feel that what you're talking about is similar to what Hilary said in her blog on the subject, or is it very different...?

Your job situation and the readings about it certainly seem confusing. You're pretty adamant that you mislead or tricked your own self, but just for sake of argument...what if you'd submitted the background and series of readings (not the outcome) to a good cross-section of I Ching diviners - sort of a Gallup poll - what do you think the consensus would be?

I mean, I get the impression you're pretty good at this, and knowledgeable - aren't you the same Kevin who used to post as 'Cheiron'? How much of the problem was misinterpreting the readings you actually got, versus not making the mental leap to a entirely different line of questioning (career change)? Not really the same thing... though pretty distinctions probably pale in light of the nightmare you're living through. (Which I do hope soon ends - I wouldn't wish career messes on anyone; I have my own version and know what it's like, ugh.)

All these 'isms'... *whooshing sound above head, not from airplane*

Lisa
 

bradford_h

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Dangit Kevin-
For a second there I thought you Would call up the Dark Lord for a little chat about the neural substratum!
I've been catching up on evolutionary psychology the last few weeks and am seeing some important lessons for Yi studies, especially some common ground linking us to the authors that the academics, post-modernists and deconstructionists have denied with their cultural relativity and tabulas rasa.
 

kevin

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Hi Lisa

Chuckles ? yes ?isms make a lot of noise.

Yes that was me then?

I had to laugh ? after I wrote that post you referred to I went to Hilary?s Blog to re-read her review on the Ritsema Sabbadini version. Then I saw her post ? I could not believe it ? Yes it seems the same to me.

I did submit my readings to another diviner ? two in fact ? both pretty excellent. Both confirmed that the job would be difficult, at times, but it was very much on my path and would lead to good things.

I should point out that this was the time that I learned to make a much better connection with the Yi. It was surprising at first ? Things like finding a missing person who had disappeared from London?

With the job being so difficult I used the Yijing quite a lot. It became routine to suddenly see the situation unfold which the Yi had indicated that morning and to switch into the advised response with the expected outcome.

So with so much positive stuff going on I wonder whether my job readings were clouded by that energy. I am still a little unclear about it all ? I am still in the tail end of that time / space? perhaps it will become clearer later.

Thanks for your good wishes.

--Kevin
 
B

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Hi Kevin

Funny, just this morning on the way home I was thinking about this sort of thing. We follow Yi?s council, but it doesn?t pan out to be something which lasts very long. Everything is so transitory, and Yi?s ?encouragement? or green light doesn?t bring everlasting happiness once on the other side of the river. But what we learn during that part of the journey becomes an essential link to carry on in whatever comes next.

I?ve watched you go through it, lord knows I?ve gone through it, as probably everyone here has. The line ?take neither loss nor gain to heart? becomes, for me, a mantra of Yi.

Hang in there, friend. Something else is around the corner.
 

kevin

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Thanks Bruce

Yup - agreed.

"After every plain a slope, but why do the plains all slope uphill as well?"

Or as a friend once said to me - "If you aren't going up a slope you have probably stepped off a cliff."

Just kidding? I am through the worst ? I have a fresh job to go to soon and other parts of my world are good?

Now have you put that hammer away?... Jeff is around here, he's got a razor and he knows how to use it...

Chuckles

--Kevin
 

kevin

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Nah Brad

The Dark Lord banned me from his website ever since I checked the box "I understand that I forfeit my soul" - I was activating Microsoft Windows at the time.

I was wondering what your new project was... sounds interesting... Tabula Rasa always appeared, to me, to be a myth anyway... unless one was referring to politicians.

Are we going to get some previews here?

I do hope so.

--Kevin
 

jte

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"Jeff is around here, he's got a razor and he knows how to use it..."

Haven't dug up a cute graphic yet, though, so no worries, Kevin (or anyone else)...

Careful with that axe, Eugene...

- Jeff
 

bradford_h

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Hi Kevin-
The outline is posted on my site, under "Psychology's Primitive Tongues". There's a huge preliminary bibliography there, 250 books just for the first half (Kabbalah and Qabalah). Still have about fifty to read. First round of links is still about six weeks away.
The premise is that, regardless of the metaphysical "truth" of Qabalah, Astrology, Tarot and the Yi, projections of our minds upon the cosmos can tell us a lot about our minds. But, as mirror images, sometimes we need to understand them upside down or in reverse order, as existential instead of essentialistic. Astrology, for instance, has grown up for millenia in a consultant-client situation, where the client was usually concerned about his identity in relation to the world and its changes. Whatever the excuse was that made him credulous and receptive to advice from his counselor, the language of astrology had to develop a large set of associations to psychological states and processes (Planets as parts of the Psyche, etc). Yet the real beneficiary of this was the Astrologer more than his client. The client had to learn about one twelfth of the broder human potential, while the Astrologer had to understand and integrate the whole scope of the system. So I'll be developing each system as a language, with grammar, syntax and vocabulary, as a handbook more for the professionals than for general consumption. The whole thing should run about a thousand pages, plus another thousand counting the Yi as a chapter.
This is why my head hurts and sometimes I'm cranky.
 

kevin

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Hi Brad

I had a quick read of the above... Blimey!

That is an astonishing project... very exciting...

I am not sure quite what <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

developing each system as a language, with grammar, syntax and vocabulary<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>would look like.

I think I understand what you are saying in terms of each model providing vectors which, when followed backwards, define a feature of the human psyche?

I have marked this for a proper read on my return - I am just stuffing some stuff into a case - away for a week.
Divination Stones - Check
Mythically tinted spectacles - Check
Inflatable Dragon - Check
5 Turtle Plastrons (Microsoft 32 bit)- check
Oh, its hard!

Holiday mood!

Thanks - I realy wish you well with it. Will reply again on my return.

--Kevin
 

kevin

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Oh, to clarify.

It is the job I mentioned in my post of 2cnd April which is giving me difficulty now... However the readings before that seem to refer to that - refer to the time overall...

--K
 

soshin

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Yes, this old thread Kevin cites as an evidence most certainly remembers me on some (very few) occassions the Yi was "leading by misleading" me. It seems to me it does this sort of things only when really hard-pressed, so to say.

Some sort of blind spot, which is not possible to be eradicated or enlightened otherwise seems to be encouraging the Yi to lead in a "wrong" direction, just to let life hit you with your nose right into the sh*t you think is smelling so good so you are able to learn it the hard way, through experience.

Namaste,

Soshin
 

cal val

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Hi Brad...

I didn't have a version of the daodejing here and went searching on the net for something (quickly) to show Lisa what I was talking about when I said it's that thing that can't be named. The John Mabrey was sufficient for that purpose.

I'm glad I did since it motivated you post that page of other translations. Thank you!

Stephen Mitchell was one of the first versions of the daodejing I read, and I had a very difficult time getting through it. Thankfully I'd read a more scholarly exploration befor his book. His version REALLY pushed his agenda... and it's just not for me.

Love,

Val
 

cal val

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Hi Lisa...

I just love animals in general... and nurtured cats rather than dogs for the last several years because I didn't have a yard... until now.

The Yi helped me keep a cat alive until he was just a couple months shy of 23 years old. When he was in physical crisis, and I asked if it was time to put him down, they told me it was too soon to play God, and directed me how to pull him through the crisis... twice. Then when it WAS time to put him down, they said so and they consoled me.

Now I have one cat left, her name is Azzie, and she's queen of the world.

<center>
</center>

Love,

Val
 

luz

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She's beautiful, Val and she's very lucky to have you.
 

Liselle

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Oh me oh my. I read through the old thread, Kevin, and understood...hardly anything!
.

Just for kicks, though, I paused after your original post and tried to *cough*interpret*cough* your reading (with the teeny tiny advantage of knowing how it turned out. *rolleyes*)

(But I do feel that I learned something from the exercise
).

10.1
Your desire is for "correct conduct." Your motivation is that this 2nd office really needs you: you could accomplish something really worthwhile there, and out of respect for your profession and the clientele-at-large you want to make a difference. But don't underestimate the profound influence you're already having at your current office. [Bradford: 'Path of simpleton, path of sage?' 'Everyday success is no mean achievement.'] [Legge: 'He treads his accustomed path...he carries out his long-cherished wishes.']

As an added benefit, at your current office being a sage is easy! The caseload is ridiculous (I think you said), but the mentoring flows nicely. You don't have to impose it, it gets requested of you. You make a difference almost invisibly and without struggle. [San Shan I Ching: 'As yet there are no obligations.'] [Empower Yi Jing: 'He treads the simple path of least resistance, making swift and blameless progress.'] [Bradford: '...far from all tigers and trials... .' 'No demands even on self.' 'No complications, no consciousness (no conscious effort?) 'quiet for stalking' 'leave no footprints'.]

10.5
You're seeing a dysfunctional situation that truly needs your gifts, and you are determined to try even though you know it's not gonna be a picnic. You'd be leaving things you love (supportive colleagues, dynamic hands-on work) to immerse yourself in a vat of acid (rigid structure, a co-manager from hell.)

Resoluteness is usually a good thing, but in this case you're being TOO resolute - a double dose of strength which will actually endanger health (is it reasonable to say that your mental health, at least, has suffered?) [San Shan transliteration: treading / steadfast(ness) danger.]

And - the other office won't listen to you anyway! Nor will they greet you warmly and give you a honeymoon period. [San Shan: 'Simply because inner fortitude has brought about a change does not mean that such strength is always gainfully employed in all situations.'] [Paraphrasing Bradford: You're looking for your 'next and best act, a romp with a real tiger', but there's no gray area and no room for error in this situation - if it's not a perfect unqualified success, it'll be a disaster. This will be like scolding a King - if he's not convinced to see it your way, your head will roll.]

64, The End in Sight
The end may be in sight, but watch your step; it's not quite here yet. You're prepared for a transition, you really are ready, you've run a great race - it's just that your timing is off. It's out of kilter (all the lines are in the wrong places, and the yins are supporting the yangs instead of the proper opposite.) So, you lunge for the finish line a little too soon, and fall down. A beautiful run-up is ruined at the very end. [Legge, King Wen's Explanation: ...there is not at the end a continuance of the purpose at the beginning.]

Think of your current job (the fulfilling client work, the cameraderie) as a great meal with a fine wine: savor it, linger over every bite. [Empower: Anticipation of fulfillment...before you have fully absorbed the lessons of the journey. Savor this accomplishment. Fully Become. Take full possession of your world before embarking to discover the next one. That voyage begins soon enough, and you will reminisce about this one. These are the Good Old Days.]

Note: I get that one a lot, when I'm railing about this-or-that that I want. And it often works - when I see that 'Good Old Days,' the tension goes away and I think to myself, 'You know, you're right..."
 

Liselle

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Val,
Awwwwwww, kitty!
She looks quite a lot like my dainty little girl cat. Can Azzie come play?


Sad coincidence story though - for whatever reason (I didn't or couldn't enlist Yi's help? She was just plain too sick? I'm just plain too numpty???) I lost her beautiful tortoiseshell sister last fall, at the distressingly young age of just-turned-six...

Purrs,

Lisa
 
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nelson

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I thought I was mislead and asked,
"why did you mislead me?" The answer
was 28.
With hindsight I wasn't mislead but that
there were two ways of looking at my
action - one - from my perspective was
that the action would be loosening and might
have other results over a long period of
time
and from the other persons - 51 -
create alarm and excitement.
Nelson
 

Liselle

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Soshin,

Certainly I understand (and appreciate!) Yi's leading me - by whatever means it has to in order to get through my often very thick skull. IMO, if we weren't able to look to Yi for wise guidance, a lot of the value would be gone.

But - (butbutbut) - if Yi can lead by misleading, no matter how much I understand and appreciate in hindsight - I'm at a loss for what to do with that on a daily basis, except be nervous.

Probably the right answer is to just relax. Someone (can't remember who right now) said pretty much that - we just have to roll with it, and it happens RARELY.

I can now sympathize with mothers everywhere, though! (Mommy to 8-year-old, with disappointed look on face: "Billy, Billy, Billy...I won't be able to believe you next time, because you fibbed to me this time...")

Lisa
 

Liselle

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Nelson,

In other words, there was an 'excess' of conflicting concerns (yours and the other person's) - Yi had to set priorities, and decided that the other person's perspective was more important in this case?

I just want to make sure I'm understanding your example...


Lisa
 

kevin

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Lisa

Thanks for taking the trouble to work on that reading - I have been trying to get back to answer it properly.

Short of time!

Just to let you know I will come back - hopefully in the next couple of days.

--Kevin
 

kevin

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Lisa

Re. Your post July 18th - Thank you - It made much sense and I enjoyed it.

I had my leaving do last night and am enjoying three days unemployment before starting in a new team.

Friday afternoon - yesterday - my last day - The heads of our service suddenly intervened and ignored the new temporary contract I had signed along with the resignation from my old post and decreed that I was on transfer to the new team...

This means I keep my old higher salary and do not need to find another job in December... I guess it is their way of saying thanks.

So until December I shall settle back and enjoy having a full patient list and no management responsibility... maybe I'll find a way to stay there.

--Kevin
 

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