Gas-pumping debacles 37.4 > 13

[Liselle]

The last two times I put gas in my car, the pumps overflowed. That had never happened to me before in my life, although I have heard of it happening.

The events: I put the pump handles in the car, started the gas pumping, and used the latch to hold the handles in. Then I stood there as usual, watching the tank fill, until I heard the click which indicates it's finished. As I reached for the handles to take them out of the car, I saw that gas was still flowing out of either the car or the handle. It flowed down the outside of my car and made a small puddle on the ground. I think that it stopped fairly quickly without me doing anything. This is based mostly on knowing that I didn't get any gas actually on me (my hand), as I assume would have happened if I'd pulled the handles out while gas was still flowing. Honestly, I was so shocked each time that this part of it is a blur - I'm not sure exactly how it stopped.

Both times were at the same gas company, although not the same gas station, and the two stations involved were in different towns. The towns are far enough apart that I think it's unlikely they're owned by the same person, although I have no proof of that.

The weather was completely different - the first time, the attendant blamed it on the freezing cold (although I've pumped gas many times in cold weather without mishap). The second time, the weather was quite balmy; I was only wearing a sweater.

---

I asked Yi, "What should I know about the gas pump overflowing the last two (TWO) times I got gas?"

37.4 > 13

37.4 - Hilary's book
"Enriching the home - great good fortune."

Wilhelm-Baynes
"Six in the fourth place means:
She is the treasure of the house.
Great good fortune."

---

Before asking, I had made a moderate effort to google the problem, and found nothing terribly helpful. There was a lot of yelling on forums about how you shouldn't wander off while your tank is filling, which I hadn't done, and how you shouldn't use the latch to hold the pump handle for you, which I HAD done (and always do, with no prior mishaps). There were a few technical points made, about pressure and whatnot, which I didn't understand. What I was hoping to find, and didn't, was some easy-to-follow advice for laypeople, like, "Here is what often causes this, and here's what you should do about it."

Someone on a forum made the seemingly-sensible comment that if the auto-shutoff mechanism isn't going to work, it probably doesn't matter whether you're squeezing the handle manually, or the latch is holding it. The wandering-off criticism seemed to have more to do with the size of the resulting spill, rather than the spill happening in the first place.

I tried to keep my question open-ended, and reasonably objective: "What should I know...?" I was expecting answers indicating it was a run of flukey bad luck, or that I should avoid that gas company, or that something needs fixing on my car, or that the pumps were broken, or that I should do something differently to prevent this.

At the second gas station, the attendant said the pumps had just been serviced. Neither attendant suggested that something might be wrong with my car. If something often goes wrong with cars which causes this to happen, you'd think gas-station attendants would be familiar with it and could suggest to people that they get x, y, or z looked at by a mechanic. Neither of them said any such thing. Both attendants were just cross about it. They seemed really annoyed with me (?!).

I am now a bit scared to get gas! The only two things I can think of to do are (1) try to stop pumping well in advance of the tank being full (IOW, guesstimate how many gallons it will take to fill it, and then stop before pumping that much) - this seems ridiculous, but I'll probably do it - and/or (2) have a mechanic look at my car. Between the Thanksgiving holiday and my work schedule, that can't happen until probably next week. (And naturally I'm not excited about paying for diagnostic fishing expeditions if the problem is not with my car.)

So, the reading. Hexagram 13, the relating hexagram, can mean a mechanism, or parts. It's not surprising hexagram 13 would appear in a reading about something malfunctioning.

The 37.4 line, however.... I understand that I should look beyond the superficial happy chirping, but still, what is it saying? "Enriching the home" or "the treasure of the house"...the "home" could be my gas tank, filling it with gas is "enriching" it, the gas is the "treasure" - so does that indicate that the problem was with the gas pumps or handles, since that's what is doing the enriching (despite the recent maintenance on the one)?

The only other thing being enriched with treasure here is the owner of the gas station who's being paid, but I don't see how that's relevant.

Does anyone have any ideas?

 

[goddessliss]

Gees woman, what sorta answer is that from Yi

Let's hope Tom uses his knack for answering this. I look forward to seeing his answer.

No pressure, Tom uch:

 

[Liselle]

Ha ha, my question exactly!

(And no, no pressure AT ALL:demon: )

 

[pocossin]

What should I know about the gas pump overflowing the last two (TWO) times I got gas?
37.4 > 13

(And no, no pressure AT ALL:demon: )

None felt. It's an interesting problem. I confess that as soon as I saw it I googled "gas tank overflow", and found plenty. All sorts of reason why this could happen. Nozzle not vertical so nozzle sensor doesn't work properly, vent line blocked, vapor recovery valve not working, varying pump pressure, etc.

The frugal woman (37) doesn't want to waste fuel and becomes more guarded (13). The great danger of spilled fuel is fire (lower trigram). Three thousand years ago the woman of the house took care of the fire, I think.

Internet advice:

http://community.cartalk.com/discussion/2130675/fuel-tank-overflow

https://malaysia.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070412032156AAjoNyI

The vent line for the fuel tank is bent or clogged. In simple terms, as the fuel goes into the tank the air that it is replacing must go out. All fuel tanks have vent lines to allow the air out, usually through the evaporative emissions system but sometimes it routes the air back to the filler neck where you put the fuel in.

When the air can't get out, the air becomes compressed by the fuel that is coming in. Eventually that compressed air will push the fuel out the filler tube causing the fuel to overflow as the air tries to rise above the level of the fuel.

Vehicles since model year 2000 or so have a device called an on-board vapor recovery valve that controls the venting process. The chances are if your car is a 2000 or later that the problem is with that valve. If it is earlier, the vent tube is bent or clogged.

http://community.cartalk.com/discussion/2286754/gas-tank-overflow

Barkydog:
I had the same problem with my car, I generally know about how many gallons it will take, stop the auto fill then pump slowly for the last gallon or 2. Sure I could spend time and money figuring out why, but with such an easy solution I say why bother.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f19/automotive-gas-tank-overflow-274545/

Don't worry about the gas cap area, but it might be bad if enough of it ran down into the vapour return area and plugged it up. Got that info from Car Talk.

I go with Barkydog, and alway keep my hand on the trigger because I don't trust nozzle sensors, and I almost never top off the tank. I haven't had an overflow problem that I can remember.

 

[Liselle]

Thanks, Pocossin,and yes, I see all the techy-babble you quoted; I just don't understand it. What I was looking for from Yi was something really really simple just to get me started in the right direction, like: "these incidents were flukes; don't worry about it," or "get your car looked at," or "the problem isn't with you (or your car)" - something at a really elementary level, so I'd know how to proceed. I mean, if 37.4 in this context would mean something to an I-Ching-savvy mechanic, it certainly doesn't mean the same thing to me, and Yi presumably knows that.

I haven't topped off a tank in years and years (and years), if by "topping off" we mean "the pump clicks itself off, but then I pump a little more in to get to an even dollar amount." I used to do that, eons ago, but I haven't done it in a long, long time. When it shuts off, I stop, period. I have never (ever ever) had an overflow until these two times.

 

[pocossin]

I put the pump handles in the car, started the gas pumping, and used the latch to hold the handles in. Then I stood there as usual, watching the tank fill, until I heard the click which indicates it's finished.

You are apparently putting as much fuel in the tank as the the tank will hold. The pump shuts off usually for one of three reasons: 1. the pre-paid amount has been delivered. 2. payment is by credit card and the tank is full. 3. payment is by credit card but the nozzle trigger is released before the tank is full. Barkydog and I recommend option 3 for this problem. If you didn't completely fill the tank, it wouldn't overflow As a wise aunt once said, "All our problems would be solved if only we would change our ways."

if 37.4 in this context would mean something to an I-Ching-savvy mechanic

I-Ching-savvy mechanic might look at the hexagam first and see Xun over Li with Xun as air and Li as the tank. As explained above, if a tank is not properly vented, then the air in the tank is compressed and can push fuel out of the tank after the pump has shut off. Then I-Ching-savvy mechanic might look at the line and might associate line 4 with Dui, Lake, and say, Ah ha! you are getting a puddle of gasoline. Then I-Ching-savvy mechanic might look at hexagram 13 and see that the I Ching recommends greater watchfulness, and then turn to the customer and say, "I can fix this, but repair may be expensive. You can prevent this problem yourself by not filling the tank full."

http://articles.mcall.com/2010-11-0...-pump-sokalski-20101102_1_venturi-nozzle-hole
-- the physics of how a gas pump nozzle shuts itself off

 

[sooo]

If you got the reading before your online inquiry I'd apply it to that.

The shut-off should work whether or not you use the latch, and the problem has no basis for being the fault of your vehicle, unless you A) aren't inserting the nozzle deeply enough into the receptacle. That would be my first suspect. B) Did you use the same pump both times? If not, then I'm back to problem A. Sometimes you have to wiggle the nozzle to get it deeper, but beyond that, it is the problem of the gas station. Perhaps they are the wife who must tend to the needs of the family of customers. I don't care how many times it's been recently serviced.

 

[sooo]

I just presented the problem to the land owner and master mechanic friend, who immediately answered even before I finished my sentence: she's not putting the nozzle deep enough. He then explained, the shut off works through a fume sensor. If the nozzle is too near the opening the fume escapes and isn't not sensed by the fume sensor, and overflows. Especially with smaller vehicles, sometimes to have to twist the nozzle to get it down into the tube deep enough, doesn't matter which direction the nozzle is facing, it could be upside-down and it'll still shut off.

Oh, one other thing that just occurred to me. Some pumps utilize a pleated rubber boot, that may prevent the nozzle from going deep enough. Just compress that rubber boot, as they're intended to be, before turning on the gas. The purpose of the boot is to seal the opening, but if not pressed down to create the seal, (same thing) the fumes escape out into the air and the turn off function is disabled.

 

[pocossin]

I just presented the problem to the land owner and master mechanic friend

I like your approach of asking the master mechanic friend. Next time I buy gas I'm going to ask the cashier how often this problem occurs. However, the shut off doesn't works through a fume sensor according to the link I gave above: "If you look closely at the end of the nozzle, you will see a small hole about a half-inch from the end of the spout on the side. This is a sensing hole, and when the gasoline's level in the tank covers this hole, it signals the nozzle to shut off. If the gasoline is foaming or if there is a lot of splashing, this hole can become covered and prematurely trigger the nozzle to shut off." It can't be fumes because the intake pipe is flooded with gasoline fumes as soon as pumping starts. The purpose of the rubber boot is to reduce the customer's exposure to these fumes, I think.

 

[sooo]

It appears you are correct, sir. Interesting.

[video=youtube;TFKOD3KRkZs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=TFKOD3KRkZs#t=0[/video]

It seems the solution remains the same, however, to insert the nozzle deeply enough. Perhaps the boot places back pressure on the external mechanism to lock it into place, or those coils do the same thing, or it may still conserve gas by preventing fumes from escaping, recycling, as it were.

I'll have to confer with my friend. He's not the easiest guy to correct; Sagittarius, you know.

 

[Liselle]

My goodness, look at all this discussion about my car while I was at work today :bows:. THANK YOU, both of you , and also, Sooo, tell your landowner/mechanic friend thanks, too! What a nice guy, answering a question for some internet stranger .

I will absolutely make sure to wiggle the nozzle in there as far as it will go the next time, and see what happens. That is something I can easily test. It's slightly surprising that after decades of pumping gas without mishap, I've suddenly started not inserting the nozzle properly, but, you never know with me... .

It was two separate pumps at two different gas stations in different towns. Both were Sunoco. I don't remember if there was a rubber boot on either handle (I know what you're talking about, though).

That video makes it really clear how the handle works - I can see how not inserting the handle in far enough gives the mechanism no chance to work properly. Thank you.

HOWEVERRRRRRR ...I still don't see how the reading said, "make sure the handle is in deep enough." I mean, I'm 99.9 percent sure Yi has ways of getting across the concept of depth, uhhh...29uc, maybe? 57, Penetrating? uch:

I mean...if we torture the line to death, maybe we could say something like "in order to enrich the home, you have to be fully IN the home...," and in this case maybe the nozzle wasn't fully in its home? That seems like a stretch to me, though, and not something I'd ever think of.

Pocossin, there might be something in the trigrams, as you're suggesting. But my point was that Yi knows I'm NOT an I-Ching-savvy mechanic. I needed the "For Dummies" version...

Sooo, I did the Yi reading after I did some googling. I actually do think the I Ching is not the best first reference for a question like this - not that it can't answer, but the Internet has access to, you know, more words. It can actually say "pump handle" and so forth.

(I do realize I apparently didn't do ENOUGH googling, since you both found helpful advice that way, such as the video. I googled "gas pump overflow" and read a few threads on forums.)

Again, thank you both for the great amount of work you did on this and the time you spent.

 

[goddessliss]

Oh dear such complexities when ya just wanna get some gas, man!

 

[sooo]

lol! Solving global problems is a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

You're right, Lisa, Bob's a really nice guy. And I was incorrect regarding the fumes. I was just talking with him and he repeated what the video said, other than to say that the small hole near the nozzle end serves a dual purpose of letting some fumes escape as well, and that somehow plays a part, but it's the liquid that actually shuts down the pump. So the Sagittarius was correct and the Gemini needs a hearing aid. :bag:

Possibly 37.4 and 13 referred to the complete integration of the system, but it could also refer to the resources used: the video, those forums, and this one too. As long as you get to the solution, that's what matters. I'll be curious what your next great gas station adventure will teach us.

 

[myanon0001]

I asked Yi, "What should I know about the gas pump overflowing the last two (TWO) times I got gas?"

37.4 > 13

Considering just the images of these hexagrams, it seems that Yi has answered your question very literally:
"Wind comes forth from fire" (37), and "Heaven together with fire" (13).
I.e., what you need to know about (duh!) is the risk of EXPLOSION blowing everyone to HIGH HEAVEN!

 

[goddessliss]

Why this song came to my mind is anyone's guess -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wcixnwEiik

Lis you should start boogieing next time your waiting for your car to fill - see if you can get a discount for any sexy dance moves

 

[Liselle]

Liss, ha ha, I agree. I'm happy to know how pump handles work - it is interesting - but it's aggravating when Yi makes a federal case out of every. little. thing. Moreover, I still don't know what the freaking reading meant.

MyAnon - along those lines - I see what you're saying, and it is an answer to the question, but I don't need the I Ching to tell me that gasoline is flammable. What I needed was a very elementary version of why the overflow was happening, and/or how to prevent it. That information would make the fire hazard a completely moot point. ("Make sure the nozzle is all the way in" would have done nicely, assuming that is actually the problem.)

Moreover, if Yi really did want to stress the danger aspect - there are much better ways than hexagram 37, in my opinion. There is nothing about hexagram 37 that screams "Danger!," and certainly not line 4.

 

[Liselle]

Why this song came to my mind is anyone's guess -

That is so random! I like that tune, it's cheerful. (Australia knows that song???)

I will be doing NO such thing, however :bag:. I cannot dance.

 

[Liselle]

Possibly 37.4 and 13 referred to the complete integration of the system, but it could also refer to the resources used: the video, those forums, and this one too.

That could be. I do feel enriched, both with information and support. If that is what it meant, we'll never know for sure, I guess.

 

[goddessliss]

That is so random! I like that tune, it's cheerful. (Australia knows that song???)/QUOTE]

Lol yeah maaaaaaaaate - cause I come from the land down under

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfR9iY5y94s

 

[Liselle]

Ha ha! Yes, I knew that.

Re: the Heaven Must Be Missing an Angel song, Wikipedia says:

The song would also afford the group an international chart hit, reaching #1 in the Netherlands, and charting in Australia (#30), Canada (#11), the UK (#4) and South Africa (#16).

Go figure.

 

[pocossin]

Oh dear such complexities when ya just wanna get some gas, man!

Indeed there are complexities. It's no longer so simple as pouring fuel from one container into another. Environmental and safety regulations make the simple task of putting fuel in one's car extraordinarily complex. Gas fumes from pumping gas (petrol) into vehicles was once a major source of air pollution, so I understand, and systems have been imposed to reduce it. There is an invisible-to-the-consumer fumes recovery system in the gas pump, and a fumes recovery system in the modern car. There is also a fuel tank roll-over vent valve to prevent leaks when a vehicle rolls over in an accident and a venting pipe to permit air to exits a tank when fuel is added. All of these systems can fail, often do, add expense to a vehicle, and are a bother when tanks overflow or fuel cannot be put in a tank. I suspect that a significant number of deaths from fires and explosions occur when these systems fail.

 

[moss elk]

The only other thing being enriched with treasure here is the owner of the gas station who's being paid, but I don't see how that's relevant.
Does anyone have any ideas?

Did you hit the nail on the head?
Behold, the spirit of capitalism unencumbered by the quaint notion of social responsibility.

Owner of gas station to tech, "How can I make 25 cents more off of each customer?"
Tech, "Well, I could do this, even though a little may spill on the ground."

Nothing is said about the family being a good one, only that the jewel is good for the particular family.

Oh, this notion could be dismissed as a conspiracy theory, sure.
But, I am personally familiar (by birth and circumstance) with many people who do such things.

 

[Liselle]

Actually...I did wonder about that, but then I dismissed it. A few reasons - one, it would be a big legal risk for them - fraud, environmental laws - would it be worth it? Two, if people continually have overflow problems, they'll just go to a different gas station. (Something I'm considering.) Three, how much would they really make by doing that? A lot, or tiddlywinks? Four, because it was two different stations in two different towns, each owner would have had to have the same idea independently (if I'm even correct that the stations are franchised - not sure - or unless Sunoco is doing this corporately, which seems even more farfetched). Five, as several people have mentioned, there is a SCARY FIRE HAZARD. Would they really purposely increase their chances of THAT?

But - who knows.

I even did a reading about it, right after the reading I started this thread with, but I wasn't sure what it said. I didn't spend much time on the reading, because I thought the theory was too outlandish. But here it is; what do you think?

"How likely you're saying the gas stations are doing this on purpose, to sell a little bit more gas per fill-up?"

17.5.6 > 21

17.5 (Hilary's book)
"True and confident in excellence.
Good fortune."

17.6
"Seized and bound to it,
And so joining and connected to it,
The king makes offering on the Western mountain."


In 17.5, it might depend on the sense of "true." Does it mean true as in factual, or true as in steadfast, loyal, honest, or just? (As a general rule, I think "true" in this line means more the second definition?)

I once got 17.5 (with 17.3) when I was frustrated by a website, and eventually I found a different website which did the same thing better. In that reading, I took 17.5 to be moral support: "You'll find a solution! It'll be fine!"

Another couple readings where 17.5 was the last of 2 or 3 other hexagram 17 lines, and I thought it meant that IF I followed the advice of the other lines, THEN things would be fine.

In another reading, I thought 17.5 meant, "Do what you know in your heart is right" - the "steadfast and honest" meaning of "true."

I once got 17.6 where, according to my notes, I thought it meant, "it better be worth it." I got that from Wilhelm's commentary:

"This refers to a man, an exalted sage, who has already put the turmoil of the world behind him. But a follower appears who understands him and is not to be put off. So the sage comes back into the world and aids the other in his work. Thus there develops an eternal tie between the two.

The allegory is chosen from the annals of the Chou dynasty. The rulers of this dynasty honored men who had served them well by awarding them a place in the royal family's temple of ancestors on the Western Mountain. In this way they were regarded as sharing in the destiny of the ruling family."​

I could envision a retired person responding to a request to come back to work by saying, "This had better be worth it." Or maybe, "This IS worth it, so I'll do it."

The idea of something being "worth it" is exactly what I was wondering about - there are several reasons why a scheme like this wouldn't/shouldn't be worth it to the gas stations.

After looking at all this, I think it sounds as if they're NOT purposely causing overflows (it's not worth it, do what you know is right), but what do you think?

One of Hilary's questions on hexagram 17 is, "How are things flowing, and how can you move with them?" That could be a message to me on interpreting, but maybe it could also be the gas station owners "moving" with circumstances. Circumstances right now are that gas prices are REALLY low, and maybe they're not making money? I don't know how purchasing works in that business - do their costs follow the market, or are they locked into a contract and a price, so that they're paying what they paid six months ago but are selling it for a much lower price?

21 could mean biting through to the essence of the problem, I suppose.

 

[sooo]

Did you hit the nail on the head?
Behold, the spirit of capitalism unencumbered by the quaint notion of social responsibility.

Owner of gas station to tech, "How can I make 25 cents more off of each customer?"
Tech, "Well, I could do this, even though a little may spill on the ground."

Nothing is said about the family being a good one, only that the jewel is good for the particular family.

Oh, this notion could be dismissed as a conspiracy theory, sure.
But, I am personally familiar (by birth and circumstance) with many people who do such things.

I doubt this is likely, given ever tightening regulations and required inspections. A station puts their license in serious jeopardy through culpability and liability with sort of foolery. I don't think a station owner would intentionally cause gas spillage as a way to make an extra quarter. The contrary is actually true. Requirements are much tighter now than ever. I mentioned that the small hole near the nozzle's end serves the dual function of sending escaping fumes up vents above the newly required roofs to prevent accidents. This the work of environmentalists and regulatory agencies. Trying to circumvent these higher tech designs is serious business, where intentionally spilling gas onto the ground simply profits no one and jeopardizes every one, most of all the station owner. Operator error is the likely culprit in these mishaps. There are clear directions posted on every pump I've used for the last several years. There are capitalistic means enough to pull every possible dime from consumer pockets but I seriously doubt causing intentional gas spills is among them.

 

[Liselle]

I doubt this is likely

Yes, agreed. I can certainly see how that notion could be pulled out of 37.4, in and of itself - hence me doing a reading about it - but it fails many common sense tests. Gas station owners would have to be crazy-nutso to try such a thing.

I think the 17.5.6 > 21 reading is confirming that - it's not worth it, and also most gas station owners are not crazy-nutso, and they "do the right thing" rather than fraudulent, illegal, and dangerous things.

 

[pocossin]

Today I asked the cashier at the local gas station how often gas tanks overflowed, and she said about twice a week. Her opinion was that people were not watching what they were doing.

 

[moss elk]

I doubt this is likely.

Yeah, me too.

 

[Trojina]

One of Hilary's questions on hexagram 17 is, "How are things flowing

Which is precisely what one needs to ask oneself when filling a tank with petrol.

 

[Liselle]

UPDATE: Successful gas pumping!

Went to the gas station earlier today and mustered the courage to fill my tank, and there was NO OVERFLOW!

​

I did fill it all the way, until it clicked itself off (hence the requirement for "bravery," lol), but I did not use the automatic latch. I squeezed the handle myself, while also continuously pressing the nozzle i-n-t-o the car.

I'd guess that the latch probably would have worked fine, though. When the pump clicked off, there was no uncertainty about the handle disengaging - I'd been squeezing it, and it pushed my fingers apart a little, just as you'd expect if it was working properly. Latch notwithstanding, I don't know if the nozzle would have stayed in the car properly if I hadn't kept pressure on it.

(BTW I went back to Sunoco - yet a third station.)

 

[Liselle]

Updating for the archives. Someone told me pump overflows can happen if the person before you tops off his or her tank (which, to me, means pumping in a little more gas after the pump shuts off, to get to a more rounded-off dollar amount).

That seems to make sense with the reading. 37.4 as the moving line -

"Six in the fourth place means:
She is the treasure of the house.
Great good fortune." (Wilhelm-Baynes)

Wilhelm's commentary:
"It is upon the woman of the house that the well-being of the family depends. Well-being prevails when expenditures and income are soundly balanced. This leads to great good fortune. In the sphere of public life, this line refers to the faithful steward whose measures further the general welfare."

- and 13 as the relating hexagram. We all have to take care of each other, to enrich our shared "homes." (I wonder if "expenditures and income are soundly balanced" is also relevant - pumping in the right amount, but not more.)

Am guessing that careful attention to hexagram 13, as well as noting that a household (37) consists of multiple family members, would have been necessary to figure out (at the time) that the problem had to do with other people, not just me. But still, Yi can only do so much to explain something like this.

Also, the fan yao 13.4 sounds like advice:

'Climbed to the top of your city walls,
No one is capable of attack.
Good fortune.' (Hilary's book)

Do something to defend yourself. A couple helpful suggestions from fellow members in this thread (again, thank you): (a) don't fill the tank all the way, (b) make sure to push the handle firmly all the way into the tank, and hold it in, with a little pushing pressure, while it's filling. (I've generally done the latter since this thread, but not the former.)