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lightofdarkness

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I have most of the Gauguelins books together with the supporting and not-supporting offerings of others (Dean's book was useful at the time re investigating perspectives)

The reactions of the INSTITUTION of Science was not surprising given their built-in 'fear' of Astrology etc., and the lack of understanding at the time re chronobiology and subtle influences on cellular growth etc.

The use of analogy to create typologies was common in ancient times in that there was little 'high precision' focus so analogies to constellations became metaphors that became taken literally and so when Science turns up recognising the SUBJECTIVE nature of constellations etc we can see where the problems are in accepting anything "Astrological" - BUT the LOCAL dynamics of planetary forces, REGARDLESS of the fact that the Sun overwhelms the environment, shows subtle influences at work re growth etc and so 'skewing' of internal development to encode gravitational/EM forces at work - we imprint.

Thus our reaction to POLARISED light as compared to direct sunlight, where life forms use that polarised light as clocks or resetters of clocks (note that in the eye, the exposure of the ganglion cells to direct light will elicit a horomone release that appears to reset our circadian clocks nestled in the limbic system)

SO - OVER TIME these rigid mindsets DO 'die out' such that it does take generations for change in perspectives. I know of a number of research scientists who at home are hard-core users of 'occult' materials (Tarot, Astrology etc) but then the IDM material shows how it is that we find VALUE in these materials regardless of what the Institution of Science 'says'.

The results from the work of the Gauguelins verified the perspective of there being no influence of constellations etc and so star signs on type, but in so doing came up with the stats indicative of an 'imprinting' of forces during development that could change metabolic dynamics and so 'skew' expressions.

The influences detected were influences that map to the main planets and the moon. The combination of gravitational and EM forces (all varying with the ecliptic orbits and so perigee/apogee dynamics) can act to introduce 'tidal' forces (as the moon does strongly) in our 60%+ water nature so there is a possible relationship worthy of analysis. (and there is a correlation of apogee/perigee dynamics, eclipses, and earth quake intensity events)

Just as rock sediments show layering, as trees show rings, so there is nothing to stop us showing these patterns as well as we develop.

That said, the data was placed on a dimension, the same sort of dimension derived from recursion of differentiating/integrating and turned into a circle, such that direct but GENERAL, VAGUE, associations can be made between persona types and planet influences on that dimension etc (e.g. I have Saturn rising and Moon in apex indicating a 'persona' akin to Lewis Carrol - mixing reason (Science - Saturn) with imagination (Moon - writing etc) ;-) - but I also have mars, venus, mercury, sun etc in the 'setting' position (another Gauguelin 'position of notice') as well as Jupiter in the 'bottom' position of notice!

BUT the methodology of laying things out onto a dimension and making associations allows for artifacts of that method to enter into the interpretations!

The breakdown of that dimension is into a mix of the Astrology categories of Earth, Fire, Water, and Air - a mix mapping to the IDM template as shown in the diagrams in:

http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/esoter.html

In that diagram we show the movement of FOUR categories to EIGHT than then summed becomes 12.

The main points of interest in the original work indicated initially a bias in folding 365 days into a 360 degree map (things get 'lumpy') together with a fibonacci pattern reflecting the path of development (the 0, 126 degree etc statistics positives and negatives) that is most energy conserving but allowing for growth (IOW we are dealing with 'slow', circular spirals of development rather than the 'fast' square form we see in rigid XOR dynamics - this slowness is indicative of mapping VAGUE information, with WIDE scopes, as compared to what we get when we become more binary, more square-spiral, CRISP information with NARROW scopes - but then the old Roman charts used to be square so maybe there is something of interest there ;-) - as is the focus on Hindu charts etc showing is the differentiating/integrating nature of two core types of Astrology)

The problem with moving from the vague to the crisp is we move PAST our species-nature, a nature INTEGRATED with the environment and TIME and so sensitive to local forces all working in parallel, and into the realm of the PARTIAL, the SERIAL, and in so doing we IMPOVERISH the nature of time, move it from its thermodynamic, arrow of time, nature, to something considered mechanistic and even stoppable/reversible!

ALL of this requires review, even if to show it all as metaphors for the basics of differentiating/integrating, with a touch of chronobiology thrown in BUT such as review is far off - bringing something from the realm of the vague into the rulership of the crisp will always be a problem UNLESS something is predictable that FORCES recognition, there is no CHOICE re accepting/rejecting. ;-)

Using Astrological terms etc shows a use of EXPRESSIONS that will automatically elicit resistance from the more 'scientific' due to past history. So, a perspective along chronobiology dynamics and IDM template of category formations could bring out the 'facts' behind all of the 'fictions'.

(I note that when the Gauguelin data appeared there was interest WITHIN the Astrology community but to a DEGREE - constellations etc still being used etc and taken literally rather than as metaphor - IOW despite the material, not much was given up ;-))
 

lightofdarkness

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Just to make the IDM point re Gauguelin's work. If you take the patterns of 'significant' points on the circle and lay the circle out into a line and so dimension, the pattern shown in amplitudes is that of a spectrum/power-law dynamic - and so an asymmetric dichotomy that 'maps' to such things as the MBTI persona typologies etc and so reflecting the common ground in all of these typologies.

The 'influence' of planets on that dimension wouls be as agents of exaggerating or dampening amplitudes etc on a FIXED dimension and so on FIXED natures on that dimension....

OR the asymmetry is due to the 'compression' factor of 365 onto 360 etc that will elicit some sort of distortion as an artifact that is then interpreted beyond its 'true' nature. IOW each mapping generates its own power law patterns that are 'independent' of each other but taking on the same form and so considered as dependent!
 
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I dunno, Chris. What you describe sounds like a very sterile existence to me. Have you considered what could be lost if we cyborg ourselves into this scientific and objective species you speak of?
 

lightofdarkness

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? all I am focusing on is balancing out perspectives, COEXISTING, not REPLACING. The current, traditional, IC perspective is biased to "science of freedom" issues and so issues about ought, should, must, ought not, should not, must not etc There are CHOICES here and they contribute to living in a LOCAL context but it is all ethics-sourced in 10th century BC and excluding research into our brains etc available in the now 21st century AD.

The full story of the IC, what it as a metaphor represents, is thus more than 10BC thinking, it includes the "science of physics" and the "science of logic" etc., and THOSE areas have been impoverished in the development of the IC, and understandably so with the lack of information at the time of the original IC development.

Thus from the 'pure' science of logic and the empirical side of the science of physics emerge new information about our being, where that information is in the form of universals of methodology (and so cover all paths, not yours in particular nor mine in particular and as such are not ignorable over the long run)

Our WHOLE species-nature reflects ALL sciences but due to consciousness being fragmenting in nature so the sense of whole gets particularised, specialised, where each specialisation considers ITS perspective as if THE perspective. That includes the traditional IC as limiting itself to its traditional perspective as if it is THE perspective - it isnt - the realm covered by analysis of methods, the 'science of logic/physics' realm, has been ignored and needs to be updated. With that updating so the ethics side of things also benefits with finer precision available to allow for clearer, more precise, distinctions/decisions to be made.

I dont see anything 'sterile' in this other than the objective, universals focus, will distance one from another, but then that is what it is a about, universals, archetypes, not locals.

The warmth, immediacy of the local still remains but now enhanced through a better understanding of the universals - and so the Law of Requisite Variety; system with the most choices will, in the long run, benefit the most.
 

martin

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Hi Chris,

You wrote:
"The results from the work of the Gauguelins verified the perspective of there being no influence of constellations etc and so star signs on type, but in so doing came up with the stats indicative of an 'imprinting' of forces during development that could change metabolic dynamics and so 'skew' expressions."

Do you mean the ancient star constellations?
The 'sidereal' zodiac that is based on these constellations is hardly used anymore in current western astrology. It uses the 'tropical' zodiac, that defines signs based on where the sun is (seen from the earth) in different seasons. In the tropical zodiac the sign Aries is - by definition - the 30 degree sector where the sun is when spring starts on the northern hemisphere. The sign Taurus is the next 30 degree sector, and so on.

It's true, however, that the work of the Gauquelins doesn't confirm that there is any influence of (tropical) signs. Also, their results stress the importance of 'falling' houses (3,6,9,12), which is surprising from the viewpoint of astrological theory. And then there are several anomalies that astrological theory doesn't account for. For instance, the effects only show up for people who excel in their profession. And they disappear when birth was induced (which indicates that what is going on is probably not 'an imprinting of forces during development', as you said).
In short, we cannot say that this research does much in the way of verifying astrology as it is. It only shows that there is "something in it". It is as yet not very clear what that is.
 

lightofdarkness

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The tropical/sideral zodiacs, and their use, reflects the use of aspects from the differentiating/integrating dichotomy (and includes extension in 'temporal' perspectives etc in both)

The 3,6,9,12 mappings, and the differences in amplitudes of the probabilities, indicate the same properties as we find in the RECURSION processes (and out of 4 comes 8 that can elicit more details to make-up '12' etc - Have you read "Arachne Rising"? It covers the use of 13 houses, a more 'lunar' perspective ;-))

Onto this same dimension we can map the binary orderings of the IC as we can the categories of the MBTI and other 'good' typologies, reflecting the COMMON ground behind these DIFFERENT expressions.

Since the 'dimension' appears to be derived recursively so it also slots into sets of octets, quartets, and pairs - the dimension can be folded into these formats (and in Astrology the 12 get packed into 4 x 3 - mapping the core qualities of elements with particular, triadic, aspects -analyse the aspects and it is more a whole, a generic, and two parts - e.g. Aries as core, generic quality out of which comes Sagit., and Leo. Experience then allows for recognition of Aries developing self-referencing (as a universal) and so out pops THREE. The fractal nature is that these three can take-on the same dynamics - two parts out of leo, two parts out of sagit., and more self-referencing from aries etc etc etc)

The diagram is 'squashed' but look at the ROWS, bottom-up, of T0, T1, T2, and T3 - each row can 'wrap' around the circle - each row is a finer differentiation where the rows result from recursion of the core dichotomy (here in the specialist labels of air/earth - each row reflects qualities identical, isomorphic, to those found in wrapping digrams and trigrams of the IC in binary sequences - this qualities associated with Taurus (where it has 'emerged' out of the T2 level of Earth (Capricorn) reflect generic qualities we find associated with the Earth trigram and both to contractive wholeness (blending etc)):

<font face="courier new">
+--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+
|Aquarius| Gemini | Leo |Sagittar| Pisces |Scorpio | Virgo | Taurus |T3
+--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+
| Air (Libra) | Fire (Aries) | Water (Cancer) |Earth (Capricorn)|T2
+-----------------+-----------------+-----------------+-----------------+
| Air | Earth |T1
+-----------------------------------+-----------------------------------+
| |
| (The Whole) |T0
| |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
</font>
Figure 4. The generation of Astrological symbols.
 

martin

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I think that you might get a better fit if you arrange the signs in 3 groups of 4 according to the order in which they appear in the zodiac.
The signs Aries to Cancer seem to manifest their elements in their most 'pure' or general form. Aries is pure fire, and so on. There is a kind of innocence and playfulness about the signs in this group. They are independent, value freedom and try to minimize ties and responsibilities. They do their own thing. Often in new ways. One could call them the 'children' of the zodiac.
The signs in the second group (Leo to Scorpio) are more like 'parents'. They are generally concerned with building and maintaining a personal territory or 'empire' while the signs in the first group are more like nomads.
The third group (Sagittarius to Pisces) consists of the 'grandparents' or 'elders'. Their focus is on collective affairs and issues, the world at large. Or the universe.

I usually group the houses in the same way and the combination of signs and house placement can be quite revealing when there is a strong emphasis on one of the groups. For example, an emphasis on signs in the third group and houses in the first (1 to 4) indicates a strong interest in collective/universal issues but usually not much active participation, as this goes against the grain of the houses in the first group (freedom, no ties).
An emphasis on signs in the first group and houses in the third (the reverse) would be typical for someone who is actively involved in collective issues but in an independent individual way. A "solist". Possibly a pioneer.

If you use this arrangement the signs on the T2 level of your scheme will become the signs of the first group (Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer). The next signs go to the T3 level.
 

lightofdarkness

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Martin, look carefully and you will see that YOUR perspective is temporal (AND oriented, linked together), MINE is structural (XOR oriented, 'stand alone'), which is the point re IDM/ICPlus etc - as universals LOCAL context will order them into different sequences and in doing so include temporal perspectives - King Wen perspectives as compared to my more Fu Hsi perspective.

The LABELS of signs reflect ad hoc naming to underlying qualities rooted in the neurology. Thus the labels in the presented diagram reflect the recruitment of blend, bond, bound, bind universals to describe some local context.

Thus at T3 the T2 labels dont exist, they have been 'refined' and so replaced into the two associated T3 labels derived from the T2 (and so Capricorn (EARTH digram) is differentiated into Taurus/Virgo)

IOW EACH row is the SAME 'realm' but in finer and finer distinctions and so we use recursion to lay out those differences. For each row Tn we can see in that row all of the previous rows but as generalities compared to the precise, particular, labels given in that row.

Thus the 'coexistance' vibe is still present such that we move from 4s to 8s but then retain the T2 labels and so get 12.

Thus we have at T1: Air (expansive blending) and Earth (contractive blending). The GENERIC qualities of which are expressed in yang/yin

Move to T2 and we now also have air in an earth context - WATER, and we also have Earth in an air context - FIRE. These are IC DIGRAMS reflecting generic properties BUT being universals can develop their own context as well as be linked to local contexts (imagine those contexts developing orthogonal to the above)

Move to T3 and we have the eight trigrams, the eight star signs, and the eight BBBB qualities (where the 4 are qualified with the contract/expand dichotomy)

Thus Taurus/Virgo, their raw STRUCTURAL natures, and so excluding their position in time, are related to contractive_blending/contractive_bonding and through that to the qualities of earth and mountain - thus the devotional bent in Taurus (note for example the presence of hex 08 qualities here):

"Taurus, the feminine (yin) sheath of Venus, is attractive and magnetic. Taureans have personal magnetism and are able to draw others into their circle, rather than actively seeking them out. In other words, while they are very fond of members of the opposite sex, they prefer to be courted. Taurus is straight-forward and down-to-earth in sexual matters.

A no-nonsense approach is favoured and too much verbalising, or complex fantasising is not really Taurus's thing. Music or other forms of sensual, non-verbal expression will strike a chord in the Taurean nature."

Map the Taurus label to the IC and you are dealing with all of the hexagrams with earth as base, together with all of their spectrums - so a MUCH richer source of meaning etc than in the above material taken off:

http://www.astrologycom.com/taurel.html

The Tarus mapping refines the qualities of VENUS to EARTH and Capricorn, as the Sagittarius mapping refins the qualities of MARS to FIRE and Aries.

Sagittarius blurb:

"Sagittarius, a masculine sign, is adventurous and not averse to the thrill of risk-taking. Your positive, life-affirming optimism makes you a lot of fun and great to be around. You love any new form of sexual expression that challenges and excites you. Both tolerant and eager to please, your honesty can sometimes prove too much for those who prefer a more mysterious, or veiled approach to love.

Your ancient emblem is the Centaur, a mythical creature famed for its wisdom and its unique half-man, half-horse combination of the human intellect and animal passions.

These animal passions are pretty much straightforward in their expression. You don't seek convoluted or theoretical discussions on the nature of love; you'd rather get on with it, because it is natural and you hate to thwart nature in the pursuit of self-expression...

A famous emblem for Sagittarius is the Archer, armed with the arrow of truth. Free and honest in your approach, you expect others to be likewise. Your arrow shoots for the stars, holding the blazing light of truth in an arc that illuminates the world. "

In the template mappings we have Sagittarious to THUNDER and Leo to FIRE as GENERIC qualities, iow the above 'blurb' is positive and so a little 'glossing over' the underlying quality where we can flesh that out using the IC hexagrams and spectra information to give a far more precise, but still generic, mapping of the types.

...and then, in the context of discussing taurus/virgo as earth/mountain representitives, there is the discerning nature of Virgo (reflecting mountain in the IC):

"Virgo, the sixth sign of the zodiac, is a feminine sign ruled by the magical trickster Mercury, the messenger of the gods. A mutable (fluid and changeable) sign, Virgo governs critical analysis, intellectual subtlety and service. Virgo people are practical and industrious, yet adaptable, with a remarkable eye for detail."

This is all linked to contractive bonding and mountain qualities. What they dont get (or refuse to mention) in the above is the roots of Virgo qualities in sadness/grief!

Given the template so we can have hexagrams relabelled to to astrological terms such as:

hex 12 = aquarius in a taurian context.

hex 15 = taurus in a virgo context.

Given the spectrum material you also have 64 aspects of hex 15 and so of taurus in virgo qualities and these are PRECISE to a level of being for some so cryptic as in need of more prose to flesh them out!

The MAIN focus here is on what the labels REPRESENT, the underlying qualities reflected in BBBB etc where that universal level is so universal it needs local colouring to be 'meaningful' at the level of expressions we deal with in the everyday.

We are thus not interested in 'correct positions' on a zodiac, but on the qualitative aspects of these representations where they reflect the same qualities that have different labels in other disciplines etc and so bring out the SAME generic qualities they ALL use - showing us the common ground at the level of our species as a whole.

Chris.
 

lightofdarkness

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BTW - in the context of mapping qualities using planets as their representations we can take the 'binary' sequence and split it in the middle to give us two threads, the yin and the yang. Map the suggested planet biases and we have:

Yin path:

Venus ------> Moon
(Earth -----> Wind)

(note the association of Moon with cultivation etc - it is a big performer in biological clocks etc and so a cyclic/morphic change focus - maps to irrational numbers and binding)

Yang path:

Mars ------> Sun
(Thunder ----> Heaven)

These 'fit' reasonably well to indicate a generic root.
 

lightofdarkness

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To add some more fuel .....

ANY particular categorisation system using recursion of a dichotomy to create its categories will be isomorphic to any other. IOW we can see in the IC and the above 'strands' of yin/yang the same generic properties and methods as we see resulting from the use of recursion of purines/pyramidines to create DNA or RNA codons - as such the 'double helix' of information encoding, and so the 'opposites' nature, is reflected in the above yin/yang threads/paths (as in venus on one strand only having mars on the other, moon on one strand only having sun on the other etc - this reflects the SYMMETRIC dichotomies formed for EACH position on the strand - and so reflects the SAME dynamics we find in DNA/RNA double strands re ACGT pairs etc. The movement ALONG the strand does not have this restriction, A can be followed by ANY other strand category etc and so allowing for local context mappings BUT in that movement there is a pattern that is ASYMMETRIC (3' end to 5' end etc - this is also reflected in the DNA of viruses - one part changes over thousands of years, the other end by the hour)

As such, the methodology used at the DNA levels to encode/decode 'meaning' is repeated, but with finer distinctions etc, at the level of consciousness and how it categorises.

If we then map-out the METHOD using 'bit' representations, and so 1s and 0s or yin and yang lines, we get the IDM template and with it access to the spectrum-extraction methodology etc., using XORing.
 

lightofdarkness

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i?so?mor?phism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-m?rfzm)
n.
Biology. Similarity in form, as in organisms of different ancestry.

Mathematics. A one-to-one correspondence between the elements of two sets such that the result of an operation on elements of one set corresponds to the result of the analogous operation on their images in the other set.

A close similarity in the crystalline structure of two or more substances of similar chemical composition.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

martin

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Hi Chris,

It's not clear to me what point you are trying to make concerning the arrangement that I propose. I suggested it as a possible alternative because you write on your esoterics page:
"There is some question, however, to the positions of the cardinal/fixed signs. Since we move from the 'whole' and a state of equilibrium (T0) to increasing levels of complexity and change the more 'unchanging' signs should be at level T2 rather than the 'leading' sign. For fire signs this is the Leo/Aries dichotomy. Any ideas?"

You write about the fire signs but for these signs it makes no difference because Aries, apart from belonging to my first group, is also cardinal. Same for the water signs. Cancer is cardinal.
It only makes a difference for the 4 cardinal and mutable air and earth signs (Libra, Gemini, Capricorn, Virgo).
The logic behind the alternative grouping could have consequences for the order in which signs appear on the T3 level (and hence for correspondences with MBTI types, the 4 Bs, and so on) but I don't see why this should be so.

The grouping that I use indeed suggests a temporal (developmental) viewpoint. However, I wonder if that is essential. If you like you can reformulate it in structural terms, based on the trine aspect, where the cardinal-fixed-mutable division is based on the square aspect.
You could then also replace the terms child, parent and grandparent that reflect a developmental perspective (I made them up, btw, these are not 'official' terms, as far as I know) by others. I believe that the old Dutch school (of Ram, Thierens, Knegt and others) used the words 'pioneers', 'maintainers' and 'propagators' instead.

Anyway, my idea is just an idea, my arrangement is not necessarily better than yours. Don't use it if it makes you unhappy!
 

martin

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Oops, "It only makes a difference for the 4 cardinal and mutable air and earth signs (Libra, Gemini, Capricorn, Virgo)." should be:

"It only makes a difference for 4 air and earth signs (Libra, Gemini, Capricorn, Taurus)."
 

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