General question

[TwoGeese]

Hi everyone,
I have been reading over past readings here and wondering where people get the phrases. For example, mirian gave me this interpretation :"Hex 13.5 is my favourite hex/line ever, in the past it brought me to tears , literally, for personal reasons. It tells about hard work paying off, about dear friends being reunited, about relationships going through thick and thin to succeed. It is poetic and beautiful by itself"
When I see that line, "Men bound in fellowship first weep and lament,
But afterward they laugh.
After great struggles they succeed in meeting."
I read just what it says. I am having a hard time getting past the actual words and getting to the metaphor.
Here is another one that pocossin gave me: "45.5 It will be a long uphill climb. 45.6 The dramatic. Maybe a set designer. You are apparently at a creative high now. Sustaining it won't be easy. Nevertheless, some do and bring light into the darkness."
I would like to be able to get the metaphor or what I am reading as well as see the line as what pocossin does here.
What I see with 45.6 "Lamenting and sighing, floods of tears.
No blame. "
Is OH CRAP!!! This is not a good way to go.
I guess I am feeling extremely confused and frustrated to the point of giving up on the oracle.
How do you all get past this and get to the heart of what is being said?
Thanks

 

[Trojina]

Read the translation and relate to that first before taking on another's commentary.

Sometimes people think the translation and the commentary is the same thing...I know I sort of did for a while. The words of the Oracle as translated, (and even then of course translations differ a lot), for example for 13.5 are just "'People in harmony first cry out and weep, and then they laugh. Great leaders can bring them together" (from Hilary's book).....everything else is someone ideas about those words and what they meant for them and they will vary much because people will have experienced them for many different questions.


So I don't think there is one fixed or agreed metaphor....(haven't you noticed how much Yi people argue and debate not at all like tarot readers )and sometimes you just need to feel how those words apply to you in your particular circumstances. Noone else may ever have received such an answer in such circumstances before. For me often 13.5 is often about things coming out right in the end, it doesn't have to be hugely emotional. If you have a mundane question then you have to mundanify (no such word) the answer.


Howabout getting 13.5 as answer to to 'should I use that garage again ?'. There won't be a lot of heartfelt weeping I imagine. Maybe last time you used it service was not so good, you went off the garage, but this line suggests actually you and the garage are going to be able to work together again. If you ask after your long lost love then things are sorted out with much more emotion. In general I wouldn't say hex 13 is a very emotional hexagram and personally I have never experienced 13.5 that way though others have.



45.6 simply shows weeping a lot but with no blame. It's not one's fault but something ended sadly...someone needed to show how sad they were, to let their needs show perhaps is what some think of it. I tend to find it purely descriptive, but again it won't always be literal, luckily, but other times it might.


I think you should just work on develooping your own relationship and image connections to the Yi's words rather than try to see what is behind other's commentaries. You need to start from your POV not someone else's. Yi interpretation is very individual so you will have have your own understandings.

 

[meng]

Hi Kim,

What's a meta for? Meta is an abstraction used to complete or add to the latter. A true metaphor compares two objects or things without using the words "like" or "as". It helps to get the spirit of the metaphor by being it, rather than seeing it "as" or "like" the objects of the metaphor. Therefore, "I feel like the wind" becomes "I am the wind," or, as in a famous movie, "I'm king of the world!" That gets you inside the metaphor, where it should become clearer and more applicable.

Poetry is nice, but Wilhelm really stretched the sentimentalism, for better or worse. I personally have found Wilhelm's and/or Confucius' take on 13.5 to be highly romanticized, when compared with the reality of the situation. On occasion my response has even been, "No freaking way!" Sometimes I think the Yi likes to yank my chain. But the option is there, I think is the line's point: to start something up or let it cool down. It's a wheel, and what is up will soon be down again. THAT I'd bet the farm on. (metaphor)

 

[TwoGeese]

I won't quote your whole reply...
This is extremely helpful thank you. I am sure I will continue to bang my head against the wall. But at least I will be aware of it more.
I need to stop my eyes from wondering past the words of the Yi.
I read the words and then I say to myself, "what?" so then I read the commentary. Then I am even more confused.

I will work on developing my own relationship and image connections, probably with much weeping.
Thank you again. :bows:

 

[TwoGeese]

That makes sense.
I think I can work with this and to think I took poetry classes in college.
Thanks meng.

 

[meng]

Becoming familiar with the eight trigrams is what I first recommend, because the nature of a trigram is itself a metaphor. Put any two trigrams together and the elemental metaphors become a dynamic, switch the top and bottom trigrams and the dynamic changes with their change in relativity to one another.

For me, trigrams have always been the key to unlock a hexagram.

 

[pocossin]

Here is another one that pocossin gave me: "45.5 It will be a long uphill climb. 45.6 The dramatic. Maybe a set designer. You are apparently at a creative high now. Sustaining it won't be easy. Nevertheless, some do and bring light into the darkness."
I would like to be able to get the metaphor or what I am reading as well as see the line as what pocossin does here.

To see what I see you will need to look at the actual hexagram rather than the derivative, appended text. Experience shows that for most people this is impossible. I think that the appended text is a brilliant interpretation of visual features of the hexagram, but it is only one possible interpretation. I expect to find underlying visual features in every case and look for them.

What I see with 45.6 "Lamenting and sighing, floods of tears.
No blame. "
Is OH CRAP!!! This is not a good way to go.

Your reaction would be the opposite if you viewed the text in its visual context.

Hatcher on 45.6
Offering counsel while weeping and sniveling
But no harm is done

The ancient Chinese repaired to their ancestral temple to receive counsel from ancestral spirits, a suggestion that you should focus on inborn talents. Weeping and sniveling refer to mourning for the dead, a mark of sincerity. The idea of weeping and sniveling obviously (to me) derives from Dui, the upper trigram of the hexagram.

 

[TwoGeese]

Becoming familiar with the eight trigrams is what I first recommend, because the nature of a trigram is itself a metaphor. Put any two trigrams together and the elemental metaphors become a dynamic, switch the top and bottom trigrams and the dynamic changes with their change in relativity to one another.

For me, trigrams have always been the key to unlock a hexagram.

Thanks.
It might be time for a few flash cards.

 

[TwoGeese]

Thanks pocossin,

To see what I see you will need to look at the actual hexagram rather than the derivative, appended text. Experience shows that for most people this is impossible. I think that the appended text is a brilliant interpretation of visual features of the hexagram, but it is only one possible interpretation. I expect to find underlying visual features in every case and look for them.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by the 'actual hexagram' are you referring to the lines themselves (the six line gua) or the images that are used to describe the text?

Your reaction would be the opposite if you viewed the text in its visual context.

Hatcher on 45.6
Offering counsel while weeping and sniveling
But no harm is done

The ancient Chinese repaired to their ancestral temple to receive counsel from ancestral spirits, a suggestion that you should focus on inborn talents. Weeping and sniveling refer to mourning for the dead, a mark of sincerity. The idea of weeping and sniveling obviously (to me) derives from Dui, the upper trigram of the hexagram.

I think I understand... Nope I don't.
I can read Hatcher's words and think I understand but what I see changes with what I want to see. I am not getting an answer from the I Ching I am getting an answer from what I want in the moment. I can get that by reading tarot cards.
I guess I would like to be able to read what I am being told not what I want to hear. I think that I am stuck on the images, the language, the metaphor- all of it. Right now, in fact, I am wondering how you got ' ancestral temple'? Maybe this comes in time but right now I am lost.

 

[pocossin]

Right now, in fact, I am wondering how you got 'ancestral temple'?

From the Judgment: The sovereign approaches his temple.

From the Image:
The noble young one, accordingly,
puts aside weapons and instruments
Guarding against unreadiness

The temple (so I understand) was also an arsenal -- as were Greek temples. But if you look at the hexagram of broken and unbroken lines, with a little patience you will see a temple gate (torii), and that is why the appended text is about a temple.

 

[pocossin]

Also, if you go to Google or Bing Images and enter 'China temple gate', you can see many such images. I did not have such a help when I began studying the I Ching over forty years ago.

 

[TwoGeese]

I am starting to think that I am not reading at all when I look at the I Ching.
Back to the beginning.
Thanks for your help.

From the Judgment: The sovereign approaches his temple.

From the Image:
The noble young one, accordingly,
puts aside weapons and instruments
Guarding against unreadiness

The temple (so I understand) was also an arsenal -- as were Greek temples. But if you look at the hexagram of broken and unbroken lines, with a little patience you will see a temple gate (torii), and that is why the appended text is about a temple.

 

[bradford]

I read just what it says. I am having a hard time getting past the actual words and getting to the metaphor.
How do you all get past this and get to the heart of what is being said?
Thanks

In my Volume One the commentary I added isn't intended to serve in any predictive capacity, but instead to climb into the metaphor and walk around in it, to see some of the places it goes, and get the understanding in that roundabout way instead of pedantically explaining "this means ...".
Also the booklet I just wrote (free download also) on Hexagram Names attempts to get beyond the trap of the Hexagram Names and into the gestalt of the idea, which forms the key to interpreting the lines.

 

[TwoGeese]

In my Volume One the commentary I added isn't intended to serve in any predictive capacity, but instead to climb into the metaphor and walk around in it, to see some of the places it goes, and get the understanding in that roundabout way instead of pedantically explaining "this means ...".
Also the booklet I just wrote (free download also) on Hexagram Names attempts to get beyond the trap of the Hexagram Names and into the gestalt of the idea, which forms the key to interpreting the lines.

Thank you bradford,
I do find when I read your translation a veil is lifted so to speak. Then again at other times I can't understand a word on the page. I am starting to thing this is more about where I am at with my head at the time then what or who I am reading.
I am headed to your site right now to find the booklet... Needing all the help I can get.
Thank you again. :bows:

 

[bradford]

I would submit that these are the two biggest mistakes people make in understanding the texts:
1) They get stuck on a particular English translation of a Hexagram name (which is often an inferior or misleading one, even in the Wilhelm). In doing so they fail to see the broader meaning, which is a gestalt that really takes a bunch of words to get the idea properly surrounded.
2) They fail to carry the meaning of the overall Hexagram into their reading of the individual lines. Each of the lines is an expression or facet of the overall Hexagram meaning, with a dash of the "flavor" of the Hexagram that the line is moving towards. But people try to read the text as if it stands alone and take the meaning out of context.

 

[TwoGeese]

I would submit that these are the two biggest mistakes people make in understanding the texts:
1) They get stuck on a particular English translation of a Hexagram name (which is often an inferior or misleading one, even in the Wilhelm). In doing so they fail to see the broader meaning, which is a gestalt that really takes a bunch of words to get the idea properly surrounded.

Yes! This has been were I frequently get stuck. I keep thinking that the 'words' are what I need when what I need to focus on is the images that are being expressed. Some times it is difficult for me to switch gears.

2) They fail to carry the meaning of the overall Hexagram into their reading of the individual lines. Each of the lines is an expression or facet of the overall Hexagram meaning, with a dash of the "flavor" of the Hexagram that the line is moving towards. But people try to read the text as if it stands alone and take the meaning out of context.

I feel like I am now just beginning to hold onto the meaning of the first Hexagram while reading the individual lines. Still working on the context of the reading as well as the flavor of the next Hexagram. I am noticing, at least at this point, the vaguer (is that a word?) my question to the Yi the more confused I am about what I am reading. I hope that passes- I would like to be able to see things from a more holistic perspective.

 

[bradford]

I am noticing, at least at this point, the vaguer (is that a word?) my question to the Yi the more confused I am about what I am reading. I hope that passes- I would like to be able to see things from a more holistic perspective.

But it needs to work like that. If you divide infinity by sixty-four you still get infinity. Being specific with the question is how we narrow down these huge ranges of possible meanings that each of the Yi texts has.

 

[TwoGeese]

But it needs to work like that. If you divide infinity by sixty-four you still get infinity. Being specific with the question is how we narrow down these huge ranges of possible meanings that each of the Yi texts has.

I am having a serious moment.

 

[meng]

Please stop banging your head; it's giving me a headache.

 

[meng]

Kim,

I think you feel too much pressure to trust yourself enough to naturally find guidance in your answers. Need to relax, and accept that mistakes are a natural part of learning anything. Think of it as something nourishing to chew on, rather than something you have to get perfectly right, right now! Remember that IC is an oracle, and that an oracle sometimes speaks of coming things. There is only rarely perfectly right, because most things are not perfectly right or wrong.

I like your avatar.

 

[TwoGeese]

Kim,

I think you feel too much pressure to trust yourself enough to naturally find guidance in your answers. Need to relax, and accept that mistakes are a natural part of learning anything. Think of it as something nourishing to chew on, rather than something you have to get perfectly right, right now! Remember that IC is an oracle, and that an oracle sometimes speaks of coming things. There is only rarely perfectly right, because most things are not perfectly right or wrong.

I like your avatar.

Thanks Meng,
Striving for perfection is the story of my life. I am actively working at catching myself when I am beating myself up and just noticing it. Not an easy task. I will try to remember this when I start to feel anxious about not understanding. Baby steps.
I will stop banging my head now. uch:

~thanks about the avatar too.

 

[meng]

I don't recall the tribe or cultural, but onto a perfect work, there would be added something imperfect, as though something perfect is unnatural and therefore draws bad luck, or energy, as we'd now refer to it.

A perfect Tibetan sand mandala is ceremonially ruined, before being swept up and offered to the waters.

Yes, anxiety is a natural response to requiring perfection, from yourself or someone else.