Hair of the Dog

[calumet]

In responding to one of my recent posts, Pam made a comment that got me thinking. She said something about how if I meet someone I'll get over Baldy faster. (If you missed the exciting prequel, Baldy is the male and I'm the female in a long and very bad relationship that ended in an excruciatingly horrible breakup a few months ago.)

Well, getting over it faster sounds good to me, especially since I continue to toss and turn at night, in the grip of anxious dreams about Baldy. Last night's feature starred me, sitting across a desk from Baldy and feeling all the world like Bob Cratchit applying to Scrooge for a raise. I was trying over and over and over to tell him something. His face was impassive and I could read his thoughts: "I'm not listening. I refuse to acknowledge a thing you say and I'm going to pretend I don't know what you're talking about and I'll make you say it again and again until you get sick of saying it and stop." Exactly.

Anyway, Pam's comment about how meeting someone would help me get over this mess faster. I asked the Yi for an opinion, and got 40.2-->16, which I took to be a green light. I'm not expecting an overnight miracle, and I'm nowhere near ready for something heavy; but it can't hurt to get out a little more deliberately--not just go to a dance and spend 3 or 4 minutes with anyone who asks, but spend an hour or so with select individuals. Ease into it, like. The first time I went to a dance solo was only a couple of weeks after giving Baldy the final shove. On the drive home from that dance, I cried so hard that I could barely see to turn into my driveway. I was much calmer on the way home from tonight's encounter. No tears, just the thought, "Baldy, you are SUCH an idiot. I'm the best thing that ever happened to you, and look what you did to me. Look what you did to yourself."

Anyway, after one coffee meetup, I know why people get married--anything's better than dating.

 

[jerryd]

Calumet; I wish you the best of all possible outcomes. You seem to be very secure in your self so this is probably where your strength lies. Be good to your self. I can find no flaw in you interpertation(as if I could).

 

[calumet]

Thanks, Jerry. I don't know how secure in myself I actually am. More than some, less than others, probably. But I've been up one side and down the other in analyzing what happened between us, and I have a pretty good grasp of who was responsible for what. While there was plenty of blame to go around, right now my main task is to help and protect myself. Devaluing myself while glorifying him is NOT in my best interest. Perhaps doing the exact opposite isn't in my best interest either, but it helps some, and it's what I can do right now.

 

[jerryd]

The opposit is you best and only option at the moment Calumet, (my opinion) at least If you happen to find later you wish to modify you stance it it is a lot easier. As for dating in your first post here, I have no clue any longer what is expected from anyone and I just will be content to be who I am and hopefully this is enough. If it is not then it's their loss.

 

[dobro p]

"I asked the Yi for an opinion, and got 40.2-->16, which I took to be a green light."

It's extremely positive.

The dream about Baldy sounds like it's representing the relationship with Baldy, rather than being symbolic of something inner - in other words, you're getting nowhere with Baldy - not with the physical guy, and not with the Baldy you carry around in your mind.

Okay, you know that. But what interests me is 40.2 in relation to your question about meeting someone as a way to get over the present cold turkey unpleasantness. I mean, Hex 40 fits the question like a glove - it's all about release from tension and moving into a new relaxed phase where you can get things done. That suggests to me that you've done enough inner work on the breakup with Baldy so that you've actually changed something in you - you've changed your understanding at least, if not your attitude, if not your ideals. You're either clearer, or stronger, or both.

And dating? Better you than me lol. I hate dating mostly. I'd rather escape into a relationship than date lol. Anyway, in connecting with a new guy, learn something from your dream about Baldy: find a guy who knows how to listen.

 

[calumet]

Dating is hell, and you laugh!

Seriously, though--something HAS shifted. I'm not sure what it is, but I can feel it. Here are a few random thoughts on the matter.

1. I asked myself what exactly I was trying to tell Baldy in the dream. It was something like, "I love you, but you are treating me badly. This has to change."

2. I have had a good deal of therapy over the years. It's been several years since I've seen a therapist regularly, but on occasion I see a particular psychologist who helped guide me out of a really ugly mess some 7 or 8 years ago. I saw her recently and we talked about--what else?--Baldy. Well, a few other things too.

Regarding men, she pointed out that my strong personality makes me attractive to two kinds of men, who happen to look very much alike for awhile. One type, Baldy among them, hides fundamental insecurity and weakness behind a facade of strength and dominance: a bully, in other words. His lookalike brother, the kind I want, is very solid within himself, and possesses real strength. (The way I'll distinguish the types in the future may not be obvious, and I won't go into it here.) I didn't understand what the therapist was saying, much less how I could make use of it, until I realized that my older daughter is very much like me in strength of personality.

As an outsider and her mother, it takes me about two seconds to know if a given man would be good for her. First, there are men she can run right over. They are of little interest to her, and for their own good they need to find gentler and more pliable women. Then there are those who feel insecure around her. In the hope of hiding their fear from themselves and others, they decide to overpower her. This type interests her because initially he looks strong; but when she realizes he's faking it, things get ugly. Finally there are the men who, by virtue of genuine inner strength, can stand up to her when necessary, as it sometimes is. I'm hoping to apply my understanding of who's appropriate for her, to figuring out who's appropriate for me. This does NOT mean that I confuse myself with my daughter. It's just that I know the nut fell mighty close to the tree.

3. I've been arguing myself blue in the face elsewhere on this board that it's perfectly fine to ask the Yi how someone feels about you. Today I decided to put the proof to the pudding, or the pudding to the proof, or whatever, and asked the Yi, "So what DOES Baldy think of me?" Answer: 52.0. Oh, yes indeed. Baldy's charms are limited, but when he hooks a woman, in general she pretty much stays hooked. He selects for that, and I don't think he believed that I would ever walk away from him. I wonder how he likes the feeling.

 

[dobro p]

"Finally there are the men who, by virtue of genuine inner strength, can stand up to her when necessary, as it sometimes is."

What you're describing is the kind of real strength and flexibility in a personality which *isn't* neurotic. We're talking about the road less travelled here, you know that, right? Not exactly a diamond perhaps, but at least a tourmaline or topaz. Something real, and nice, and not screwed up.

"So what DOES Baldy think of me?" Answer: 52.0."

ROFL - This might indicate his feelings for you (lack of movement, stilling things, strict limits and boundaries), or it might be the Yi's advice to your asking this question ("Shh! You need to meditate.") lol

 

[dobro p]

Peridots are nice, too. lol

 

[jerryd]

Calumet hi;
I have been reading along here and wish to ask you, in your travels over the past few years if any other relationships you have had resembel in any way the one you have ended with this person Baldy? Just curious,if there are any clues from the other pertners or family members which you might be transfuring here in this case? I am no psychologist but all this sounds very complex for it just to be what he has caused! Please forgive me if I have over stepped here.

 

[jerryd]

Here is what I interpert for The Hex 52 reading you recieved; This is my read on what Thomas Cleary has to say.

If this is a response [Hex52] for him to you he speaks from a point of transition from Yang to Yin, as he identifies you as the mountain in his path.

If it is a response to you as if it were your question,you are seeing him as a person holding you from moving ahead and he becomes the mountain. You are moving from a Yin position to a yin position or are in a transitional state.

You are being emotionally blackmailed into your present position(jerry's opinion).

He may feel superior for no obvious reasion to you but as he has controled you through his position and now has lost this place he is angry.

You must face his position as the mountain having found a pass through it. You are not progressing because of the past which is baggage you do not need and in order to move through this pass you my have to drop off you load ASAP.

 

[jeanystar]

Calumet, I see your dream as something that reminds me of the story in the bible about jacob wrestling with the angel. Jacob refuses to let go until he gets the blessing. "I will not let you go until you bless me"

there is something you want/need from the whole baldy situation before you put it to rest, call back your spirit. He isnt budging.

BUt it really seems something you need to get/give yourself - not get from the actual baldy himself. Something in you is not yet giving that up.

how do you call back your spirit? Carolyn myss says its through forgivenss. I am contradicting myself here because recently i said I felt forgiveness wasnt a requirement. and yet......

.....it is a gift you give yourself, not a gift you give baldy. It is the ultimate act of calling back your spirit. cutting the tie. letting him go.

when someone obviously doesnt deserve the love we feel for them, we try to dam it up and not feel it. This is very painful. I see forgiveness as letting the emotions rip. you love the guy. he's a schmuck. but you obviously love him. let the feelings flow. and somewhere in those sobs, tell him you forgive him for not being what you wanted/needed him to be.

 

[calumet]

Jerry, Baldy's abusive and I come from a family where abusive behavior was the more-or-less accepted norm. Sad to say, I've been in many such relationships. (Interestingly, my marriage was not one of them, although it had its own fatal flaws.) I identified the abusive pattern and the part I play in it a good many years ago, but evidently identifying the thing isn't sufficient to keep a person out of it.

When I met Baldy, I was about 6 months out of a very similar relationship and was toying with the notion that maybe I ought to stop already with this kind of guy. I'm not sure exactly how I got looped in with Baldy. I was conscious of his potential abusiveness immediately; but again, I didn't understand that I really, really need to stay away from his type, and I also hoped that he would be different. I'm now very clear and resolute about what I need to do, and I know what to look out for; so maybe there's a glimmer of hope. Is the glass half-empty, or it is half-full? Am I forever compelled to seek out abusive men? Or do I have sufficient resilience and resources to avoid them, and maybe even to form a partnership with a relatively healthy person? We'll see, I guess.

The question for which I cast 52.0 was very clearly framed as an inquiry about Baldy's perspective. Bear in mind, I believe the hex cast is random, whereas the interpretation is anything but. The Yi supplies images and metaphors that help us find an answer within ourselves. The interpretation itself comes from the reader's store of knowledge, much of which is unconscious and preconscious. (Note that not everyone looks at the Yi's workings this way.) With the help of the many translations available and the people on this board, I'd have managed to make sense of any reading; but I didn't have to think much to understand how Baldy sees me as a mountain.

Here's what Lise said about 52 in a post here some time ago:

"Gen, name of 52, means tough, hard to chew, straightforward, blunt, forthright. So there is more to it than this generally accepted 'keeping still'. It is about being a real individual, true to yourself, and because of that also true to others. And as a result of being true to yourself, then the 'keeping still' is possible. But only then."

A mountain is a particularly powerful manifestation of earth. Reading the lines from the bottom: yin, yin, yang, yin, yin, yang. You're swimming along nicely in yin, and suddenly WHAP! You come up against a solid yang line. Not once. Twice, for emphasis. A mountain is a boundary, a limit. The mountain isn't going anywhere, and it's not going to change in your lifetime. You must choose to expend a great deal of effort "conquering" it, or accept that it is forever out of your reach. In imposing such limits, the mountain represents a kind of loss. Losses cause grief; and if you don't deal with your grief, it will deal with you.

In my mind's eye, the view is from about 100 feet behind Baldy. He stands, arms akimbo, looking up at this mountain, asking himself where the hell it came from and what the hell he's supposed to do about it. ("First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is." Thanks, Bradford.) I think we'll leave him there, puzzling over his dilemma.

 

[calumet]

Jeany, thanks. I think you're right about the dream and the need to find a way to lay the conflict to rest. Forgiveness, however, simply isn't on the table. For me, the question is how to live free of bitterness. Forgiveness might or might not be a solution; I think there are others. I'm just not sure right now what they are, or what is the right one for me in this situation.

 

[dobro p]

"Forgiveness, however, simply isn't on the table. For me, the question is how to live free of bitterness."

I thought that's what forgiveness *is*.

 

[calumet]

Nope, don't think so. Forgiveness may be one route to the goal, though.

 

[dobro p]

Okay, let's talk.

Forgiveness isn't saying 'what you did was okay, and now I feel good about you'. Forgiveness is letting go of the crappy feeling you have when you think about or meet somebody cuz they hurt you in the past. You don't have to like them, and you certainly don't condone. You just decide to let go of feeling resentment and fear and retaliation. It's for you, not them.

 

[calumet]

Don't make me get out my dictionary ...

Well, never mind. You can call it what you want, I guess, but I doubt we'll agree on that term. We absolutely agree that it would be nice to get rid of the crappy feeling. More than nice--it's the goal. But I'm still left wondering how to get there. Let it go, you say? All righty then! Done!

Uh huh.

 

[dobro p]

Yeah, more of a direction than I goal, I guess.

 

[calumet]

Exactly. Speaking in general terms as well as in personal terms: If someone demonstrates ill will toward me and treats me with disregard, it causes me pain. I don't hurt because I'm bearing a grudge or because I'm harboring resentment; I hurt because I've been harmed. The hurt is psychic, but it is real nonetheless. Like physical pain it will recede at its own pace, unless I cut it short by deceiving myself, or self-inducing amnesia; or unless I prolong it by mismanaging my emotions, which I don't think is the case here.

As usual, the only way through it is through it.

 

[dobro p]

So what's forgiveness then?

 

[calumet]

That's actually a very interesting question, and one that doesn't admit of a quick response, which is what I have time for right now.

Forgiveness has to do with the way we think about wrongdoing; with the way we value ourselves; and with how we think about others. For example, if I'm crossing the street and a drunk driver runs a stop light, knocks me over, and I break my leg, I will think about the event and the offender one way. If I'm crossing the street and a dog comes barreling out of nowhere, knocks me over, and I break my leg, I will think about the event and the offender in a different way.

Or let's go back to the drunk driver who caused me to break my leg. Some months later, my leg has fully recovered but occasionally I still have angry and negative thoughts about the event and the offender. Then, in a completely unrelated accident, I suffer a head injury that destroys my memory of the drunk driver having caused me to break my leg. Now I no longer am plagued with negative, angry thoughts about that event and the offender. But is this forgiveness?

Gotta run.

 

[calumet]

Oops, I mentioned that how I value myself is a factor also. A couple of quick and probably not very good examples of what I mean:

Given the same three scenarios above, let's say I'm bored with work and have been hoping for a break, I have plenty of sick leave, and I can draw disability compensation while I'm laid up in the hospital with a broken leg.

Now let's say I was in the middle of an important and interesting job at work, I have neither sick leave nor disability insurance, and in fact have no source of income while I'm laid up in the hospital with a broken leg.

Hmm?

 

[pakua]

Jeanystar said:

"...but you obviously love him. let the feelings flow...."

In his IC book, Sam Reifler speaks about love in regard to hex 47, something to the effect that love is not a bargain, one loves without expecting anything in return.

Calumet, is it possible to acknowledge and/or accept that you love him, and let yourself feel that, and that's perfectly fine, while still realizing you can't be with him, and that's fine too?

 

[calumet]

Pakua: No.

Well, let me rephrase that. I suppose anything is possible. As it happens, though, my main feeling toward Baldy is not love but resentment. My main concern is letting go of the resentment in order not to poison my life with bitterness. However, I am not going to minimize, fool myself, or confabulate in the service of letting go of resentment; and that, it seems to me, is essentially what you're suggesting. No--I'll have to find another way.

Thanks for the thought, though.

 

[dobro p]

"Forgiveness has to do with the way we think about wrongdoing; with the way we value ourselves; and with how we think about others."

Dunno. I get the feeling you're generalizing and skittering away from what it really is. The examples you gave above kinda circle around it without facing it I think. You kinda say it depends on this and that, without saying what it is and how it actually works.

Here's a small one. I manage to step on your toes in this thread; you tell me I'm a dork. Okay, we've hurt each other. So, I'll forgive you first, okay? So, when I forgive you, what am I saying to you? And what am I saying to myself?

From where I'm sitting, it involves two things: how I deal with you, and how I deal with my feelings about you. So in essence I'm saying to you: "Okay, I've calmed down now; no hard feelings," (this is sincere - there are no hard feelings) and I stop writing you off or retaliating or whatever I was doing toward you when I was upset. But the core of it is how I deal with my feelings about you. Until I face that, those feelings are undigested, unassimilated, stewing in my guts. See,for me, I get sick of feeling so lousy, I get sick of being so angry and resentful, I get sick of the fear, and the pain. And that's what I say to myself: "I'm sick of feeling this way; it's gone on long enough; I want to let go of it." Sometimes it helps to say: "It's over and past; I deserve to be free of these feelings." And sometimes I say: "I want to be free of these feelings, but they keep coming up. Help." (*You* decide who I'm asking for help.)

See, the bulk of the work is me toward me, not me toward the other person. If you think it's the other person, it's an illusion.

And here's the biggest sticking point for me. I reach the point where I actually want to let go of the resentment, but there's this complaining voice that comes up: "But it's not fair! They hurt me! They're getting away with it!" That injustice/retaliation loop is the last hurdle. If I can let go of that pain and that pride and that desire to have the other person's sorry bum hauled into court in front of judge and jury, I'm free.

That's my experience and understanding of it for small stuff. For medium and big stuff, I guess it's more of a direction than a destination - something to work at more than something to achieve.

Sorry for the long post - I much prefer the short, pithy deliveries. Forgive me?

 

[seeker]

Calumet, I think your dream means you have unresolved things you want to say to him, only you know what that is. Has your therapist ever had you write a letter? When I went through therapy many years ago relating to feelings towards my biological father, who was verbally abusive and cared not a wit for me, she had me write a letter to him saying how angry I was and outlining what he had done to me and how I felt about it. I thought it was stupid at first, but it turned out to be very cleansing. My letter turned out to be almost 10 pages. Yeah, had a lot of unresolved issues

You don't mail the letter, the recipient never sees it. The point is just for you to resolve things for yourself.

As for dating, I just had my first one in 8 years. Thomas doesn't count, as we just got together at my house, we never actually dated. But a new guy I met online a couple of weeks ago asked me out. We had lunch Sat and spent most of the day together. Before that we had talked everynight for at least an hour for the past week. I can honestly say now that if Thomas emailed me tomorrow and asked me to come back, I would be extremely hesitant. And I have actually gone several days this week without thinking about him. Real progress for me. So I'm with Yi, get out there and find that incredible man that wonderful you deserves. And when one comes along, if you are not sure if they are a good one or a Baldy in disguise, Yi can be quite helpful in discerning between the two. Looking back over former readings, I have to admit that Yi was never very supportive of me and Thomas. Never said no, forget it, but always indicated it would be a lot of work. For the new guy I am getting a lot of 17 and 11, and when I asked what kind of person he is, a 58. Ahhh, new hexes to explore. Seems positive, if I take it slow and am honest and real. Yep, there is life after my husband and Thomas, and for you, I know there is life after Baldy, a much better one just waiting for us to reach out and grab it.

 

[calumet]

I am, in a word, intellectualizing--true enough. But I'm also exploring how I think about what happened not just with Baldy, who moves more to the periphery with each passing day--but throughout my life; and I'm exploring how my thoughts influence my emotions, and how I might change--actually change, and not just paper over--my thoughts and beliefs. Aside from being a pressing immediate concern to me, these are genuinely interesting philosophical questions, having to do with agency and morality, guilt and responsibility, and ultimately the question of free will. Was it a drunk driver who caused me to break my leg, or was it a panicked dog? (Was the individual who caused the problem a responsible human being, or something less?) Was I hoping for a paid vacation from work so that I could catch up on daytime TV, or did I really need and want to go to work rather than spend two weeks with my leg in traction? (Does it matter that I wish to x?) The answers to those questions affect how I react to having a broken leg--or a broken heart.

I heartily agree that it would be wonderful to get rid of the corrosive bitterness of resentment. But if I am very certain that the S.O.B. was drunk when he ran the stop sign, and I absolutely needed and wanted to be at work, I am going to be resentful. I'm human, and it's not quite possible for me simply to dismiss resentment or any other strong feeling. Call me unenlightened, but I don't "get" Buddhism. I won't tell myself pretty stories about how love demands nothing. (Actually love between adults demands plenty.) And I won't say that because it would be nice if I didn't feel so crappy, I release the crappy feelings to the Universe and no longer feel crappy. Or what have you. I'm pissed off, and I'm going to have to stay pissed off until I'm not pissed off any more. I'm hurt, and I have to keep hurting until I stop.

I can see why you'd say I'm skirting the issue, because I AM intellectualizing. Questions of agency and will are very interesting to me, both as abstractions and as intensely relevant personal questions. So yes, by intellectualizing, I'm skirting it if you will. But in another sense I'm facing it squarely: I AM hurt, and I admit it. I AM pissed off, and I admit it. Saying OMMMMMM a bazillion times a day might lower my blood pressure but it isn't going to change how I feel. Time will. How much time? Well ... I am a fair-skinned, freckly natural redhead, and my forebears were Irish. Have I mentioned that I'm not an especially good person to cross?

Q: Am I following a fruitful train of thought?
A: 20.5-->23.

OK, I'll tone it down for public consumption. But the train of thought chugs on.

 

[calumet]

By the way, if you are interested in this aspect of moral philosophy, a good place to start is a paper at http://www.hum.utah.edu/philosophy/faculty/weitzel/curriculam.pdf. Or just try the summary at http://www.hum.utah.edu/philosophy/faculty/weitzel/dissertation.pdf. Pamela Hieronymi is also interesting on the topic. Neither of them is Martha Nussbaum, but ...

 

[dobro p]

"Q: Am I following a fruitful train of thought?
A: 20.5"

20.5 talks about contemplating your own life, and how if you're the right person with the right attitude, it's without fault. So the answer to 'am I following a fruitful train of thought' is 'yes, that's fine' if you're that right person with that right attitude.

So, who's that person mentioned in 20.5? It's a person who has a good ideal and who works at translating that ideal into practical action. By having something worth working toward, you can afford to let go of what's behind you.

That's what forgiveness does too - it allows you to move into the future and leave the past behind. That's why people like Jesus talk about how important it is - it lets you move forward.

"I'm pissed off, and I'm going to have to stay pissed off until I'm not pissed off any more. I'm hurt, and I have to keep hurting until I stop."

Sure, but in the meantime, what do you want to do with yourself? What do you want to be?

 

[seeker]

I don't think you are skirting the issue at all, you may be approaching it differently than someone else might, but that is not the same thing as skirting it. As you yourself said, you are being very honest with yourself about where you are and how you feel. Everybody works through things differently, and one persons way does not necessarily work for everyone. I think you are doing a lot of honest self-analysis, and that is never a bad thing. But I think it does help to vent, which is probably why you come here

Not someone to cross??? Well I also have some Irish in me, and I'm an aries, so I can relate to that. Our anger can serve us well if we make it productive, which is what I see you doing.

Still think you will benefit from dating again. Scary I know, but even though we pretty much know we are good women and they are just idiots who could not see that, it is amazing how much of an affect a compliment can have. Having lost over 40 pounds in the last year and still losing, as well as just becoming a much nicer person, I feel pretty good about myself. But when my new guy told me I was beautiful and how lucky he felt to be with me, well, I was on a cloud. Its amazing how healing a little appreciation can be.