haunted by hex. 18

[AnitaS]

Hello Fellow Seekers,


About a couple of years ago, I spent a week with a nice guy in Amsterdam. I did not fall for him, but it seems he may have. We barely keep in touch and now he has invited me all expenses paid to Greece and Amsterdam. A dream - Greece - and I was very excited and said yes, till I realised through my spiritual masters that this would create a big karmic debt. Which I can only repay by introducing him to the priceless Ceremony that The Buddha himself underwent before his nirvana. However, he has not been very positive about this, although I have told him this is no religion and does not demand his practice. I wrote to him last night suggesting he come get that first because it is the only way I can repay him for his generosity. I drew hex. 18 when I asked if I'd meet him again and 18 -line 3 moving to hex. 4 for whether he'd come for the Ceremony. I find this hex most difficult to decipher. Please help!

 

[autumn]

Circe,
I take 18 unchanging here to mean that your suggestion has spoiled his initial feelings about the trip. His great idea and generosity were infected by your insistence on spiritual reciprocity, and he may just be trying to figure out what your underlying motives are- what has sullied his innocent offer with the need to make karmic sacrifices. (From his point of view, of course).

Given that, when asking if he'll actually come to the ceremony, if the damage done to your friendship is rectified, then he might (64). The change lines suggest he just doesn't get it. He doesn't understand why you would insist on something so formal, and give the whole thing so much thought (line 3), over your feelings of guilt and responsibility (line 4. But because 18 changes to 64, I think you just need to really talk to him about this. Have a very in-depth talk, and let him make comments and ask questions.

 

[willowfox]

Hi circe,

I drew hex. 18 when I asked if I'd meet him again and 18 -line 3 moving to hex. 4 for whether he'd come for the Ceremony. I find this hex most difficult to decipher. Please help!

hex 18 says that the situation has gone sour, you are too blame here with your invitation to a ceremony which he obviously is not too happy about. Drop the ceremony idea quickly, so that your friendship can become stable once more.


hex 18.3 suggests that you are moving to quick with the guy. Therefore, it could end up in a misunderstanding and a argument. You will have regrets about asking him to be in this ceremony of yours.

hex 4 suggests inexperience. You don't really know how to deal with this guy or what he likes. You are guessing that if you invite him to the ceremony then he will enjoy it and be happy but you don't know, do you? Your guessing that what you like, he should also like. Unfortunately this is not true. You don't know what to do for the best because if he does not like the ceremony then trouble will be the result. Seek help to find out what you should do under the circumstances. Invite or not invite? Listen to what people say. You are too inexperienced to know what this guy likes or needs.

The final comment here would be not to invite this guy to the ceremony of yours, the result will bring upsets and that in turn will result in either a horrible holiday or no holiday.

 

[dobro p]

"We barely keep in touch and now he has invited me all expenses paid to Greece and Amsterdam. A dream - Greece - and I was very excited and said yes, till I realised through my spiritual masters that this would create a big karmic debt. Which I can only repay by introducing him to the priceless Ceremony that The Buddha himself underwent before his nirvana."

I don't walk to talk about the reading, but I do want to say something about the situation. From where I'm sitting, the situation looks like this: he's interested in you as a woman, so much so that he's offering you expensive gifts; and you're offering him religious ceremony in return. This ain't gonna work. He doesn't want religion; he wants you. If you don't want him in the same way, then it's kinder and more honest to avoid the Greek holiday he's offering.

 

[jesed]

Hi circe

I thought a lot about this before posting it; hope not to offend you or your believes.

I would suggest you one question (altough maybe you won't like to ask it):

How the Sages qualify the IDEA of big karmatic debt if I accept the travel-offer from X?

Best wishes

 

[rosada]

Hi Circe,

I think your responce was brilliant. A man you don't know very well offers you a blissful vacation and you offer him eternal bliss in return. Good for you! If he's honorable, that is, if his interest really is in getting to know you, than you have told him exactly who you are up frount, and he will be delighted to receive your gift. If he was just projecting a fantasy, then you've saved the both of you a whole lot of trouble.

18.3 Says you may have proceeded a little too energetically in righting "mistakes of the past" (his assumption that you shared his fantasy?), but no blame. So again, you did what you had to do.

4.0 Can mean if he really is innocent, that is, if his motivation is that he cares about you and wants to get to know you better, then all will go well.

 

[autumn]

Whoops, sorry. I read that lines 3 and 4. With just line 3, then he probably feels overwhelmed with the idea right now. Religious beliefs are a serious, sincere subject, so I still advocate a lot more talking about it.

 

[rosada]

You can have it all. You carry your heart with you forever. Through ALL life times, your heart comes with you. Never settle for anything less than the absolute best when it comes to matters of the heart.

 

[AnitaS]

Thanks everyone for your answers! So kind of you. Rosada - you are so right. I did what I have to do. And this is no religion - not at all - but the source of religions like Buddhism - so it's much like Buddhism and karma is an integral part of it. However, belief matters not - where this ceremony of the opening of the Third Eye is concerned. It is only karma and destiny. I went to this temple from curiosity, not because of belief. And I have told him clearly that he needs not practise it or believe in it. Well, it's up to him, really, but at east I have clear conscience!


Jesed - I've asked the yi (although what my guruji says is enough!) -your question - whether I'd incur a big karmic debt by accepting this big gift without his having Kyudo- and I get 36 line 6 moving to 21. It seems to me I will. Having ascended to the light and then falling from it.

 

[jesed]

Hi circe

here is a misunderstanding... (due to my lack of clarity, I guess)

What I suggested wasn't..if you would incur in karmatic debt... but a qualification of the idea that you will (in terms, is this a true idea? is it a false idea?).

In this terms, 36>21 would suggest this is a false idea. An idea that hurts the light and become an obstacle to the union.

But I'm aware that your question wasn't in the terms I suggested, so maybe my interpretation cann't be apply to it.

In any case, best wishes

 

[autumn]

36.6 turns to 22. There is an in-depth thread on this a couple of months back. 36 is described as the hidden light (knowledge, soul) of man. Light on the inside, not on the outside. In line 6, the hidden light climbs to the heights of heaven, and then plunges again to earth. This is a description of man's hubris, arrogance, and conjures iconic imagery, such as the fall of Lucifer.

This is also a transformative line, because at the height of 36, hidden brightness is transformed into 22, grace, which is light resting on the outside. I think it's interesting that 22 was described by Wilhelm as "grace", which is not only an English word for beauty and refinement of the outward nature, but also an English word for a spiritual principle.

In 36.6, karma is transformed into nirvana, that place where the grace of God has risen above the law of karma.

My mother was a practicing Buddist for a time while I was growing up. In my understanding of what I was taught, I question how a ceremony performed for the benefit of a third party, not for the benefit of the one partaking in the ceremony, (who does not have to believe the truth offered him, only ceremonially partake in the ritual), resolves a karmic debt. If the ceremony is for your benefit, aren't you the one incurring the debt?

On the other hand, if the intention of this man is to offer a gift, and you do not feel you can reciprocate the offer with heartfelt interest in him as a person, then do you not resolve yourself of karmic debt by simply telling him the truth?

 

[bruce_g]

Great post, autumn.

To a religious person, they are never being religious, they are merely speaking the truth.

 

[AnitaS]

Jesed,

Are you implying there is no such thing as karma? I for one, firmly believe in karma and karmic debts. Anyway, thank you for helping me.

 

[AnitaS]

Autumn,

This is not Buddhism as I say again. It's the source of Buddhism. The Ceremony that opened the Buddha's third eye is now available to all of us through this path I follow. When I introduce my friend to it, I do something precious for him, because without me, he could not attain it. There are other factors involved in his undergoing the Ceremony too - like the virtue of his ancestors, etc. The belief comes only later - if one chooses to practise and thus experience - which is why I believe, having been on the path for 8 years.

This is not religion - where one is converted and forced or bribed to practise. My friend gets something priceless- a chance at moksha, a chance to realise his own divinity, and manifest it, as well as protection from the disasters of today, and much more. Whether he believes in it or not. As I mentioned, I did not go through this ceremony because of my belief in it.

I speak of karma because it is part of this belief and so it is part of Buddhism too. Any Buddhist will agree that every penny you take from anyone must be repaid in some lifetime. It's the universal law of karma. I am however, not here to defend my path. It was a simple question I asked and the answer is now clear to me.

 

[luz]

kharma?

But.. isn't this like saying that money can buy kharma?
That is what it sounds like, no? he wants to pay for holiday for you and you in return will owe him.. kharma? which can be repaid with a temple ceremony?

I don't know much about these things but somehow, it doesn't sound right to me.
I think that if there is any kharma to be exchanged here it might be in the feelings or intentions this man has towards you. The way I see things, you can either lead him on or be honest with him about how you feel. I don't know the intricacies of how kharma works but it seems to me that being honest is the best way to go. It's the currency in which I'd like to be paid back, in any case

 

[autumn]

I am however, not here to defend my path.

Of course not. Nor should you be forced to do that. I can feel the strength of your devotion. You came to the Yi, though, for guidance, so focus on the message they have given you.

I see now why you received 36.6 (22):

because without me, he could not attain it

About this,

It's the source of Buddhism

When you receive the source, you are enlightened. When you record enlightenment in words and ceremonies, you have religious symbols. The source is living and formless, the words and ceremonies are symbols of the living source. Everyone who is sincerely devoted to their "religion" is in touch with the source, and are not "religious", but are in touch with a transformative power. So, that applies to everyone in all "religions".

You have the answer you came for, and if you need help interpreting more answers from the Yi, you will have that help again. Good luck.

 

[heylise]

I doubt the Yi is talking about karma and debt. Hexagram 4: the guy does not know your real motives, that you come with him for a holiday, and not for him. Hexagram 18: mend that.

 

[heylise]

Maybe it would be good to take a look at the fanyao, 4.3!

 

[jesed]

Hi Circe

No, I'm not telling you that there no exist karma. I knows it exists.

I'll elaborate a little more, not to defend my position, neither to diminish yours, just to clarify where my comment come from:

a) to see him again, there is an objective need to fix something wrong (18 unchanging)
b) to him coming to the ceremony, again, 18 (you had act with a little excess, not blame, but excess).

What can be wrong? Maybe my understanding is not like Buda's, but in the way I had learn how karma works, I don't see how accepting an invitation can be so terrifying karmatic debt.

To give without egoistic intention, to accept without egoistic intention, cann't produce karmatic debts. Otherwise, everyone would have a terrifying karmatic debt by accepting the fragance of a rose.

In the way I had learn, the law of karma shows us to interact with natuarlity (and that innocence is what leads to balance and fair interchange), not to be measuring "i give you x, then you give Y, you give me X and therefore I must to give you Y". Thinking like this is against innocence.

This is similar as the way some cristians relate with the Grace of God: God give me Graces, I own him to act X; and if i act X, God own me his grace.

Again, I'm only clarifying my point of view. Your Path seems to be diferent; and that is Ok

Best wishes

 

[AnitaS]

As for 'love'. I never pretended to love this guy, and I'm not sure whether he loves me. We are just two people who like each other enough to spend time together. However, if I cannot repay his generosity, surely there is no point in my incurring karmic debt by accepting hsi invitation. I hope some day he can undergo this unique once in a lifetime Ceremony that does not demand of initiates that they practise against their will. And I think he knows this for I have told him. I told him this as far as two years ago when we met and I still do. It is really a matter of his destiny.

 

[AnitaS]

Dear Jesed,
Jesed,

I see your point of course. But then one cannot compare one's enjoyment of a rose to the enjoyment of money in the bank that is sent so you can buy a ticket. There can be no karmic debt incurred between the rose and the person who smells its fragrance, for the rose has no intention. And who knows what is my friend's intention? Who knows for sure someone else's intention? After all we only spent a week together. But I thank you for your explanation. The Yi is absolutely clear on that count - 36 - line 6- that I will plunge to the darkness of earth after seeing the light if I accept (in karmic terms). Evil knows no restraint, that is its downfall says Guy Damian Knight of line 6. I'd absolutely love to go to Greece - its my dream holiday, but I choose not to and that's not an easy choice.

 

[AnitaS]

Thanks Heylise,

Yes I saw that 4.3 and thought hey!!! That's not me! I did not ask for this holiday - he offered it. And I did not promise him anything in return - either love or sex. In fact I told him up front that there would be no sex. He laughed at that. When I drew 18, I was only asking whether I'd see him again and 18.3 - whether he'd come for the Ceremony. Hmmm 4.3 - maybe he respects me a bit more now that I've made a condition - that he undergo the Ceremony!

And thanks too Autumn. However , by source I mean - the Buddha learned all he did - from this path and then created Buddhism, after undergoing the Ceremony I speak of. Which is why it is so precious. I know most people find that hard to believe, but then I know this path intimately.

 

[autumn]

36 - line 6- that I will plunge to the darkness of earth after seeing the light if I accept (in karmic terms).

That's not what that line is saying.

 

[jesed]

Dear Circe

Please allow me one question, off of the decision (you had already made your mind, and that's ok). I wold like to understand better how your tradition understand the Law of Karma

But then one cannot compare one's enjoyment of a rose to the enjoyment of money in the bank that is sent so you can buy a ticket.

Following this path of thought, neither one compare the offering of money for a ticket to the offering to participate in this unique ceremonial.

Does this implies that, if he would go to the ceremony, he would own a greater karmic debt?

If don't, what is the diference.


See.. the idea... accepting money is diferent (mayor issue) than accepting the fragance of a rose, sound very much like measuring (the mayor is the gift ofered, the mayor the interchange needs to be)

Maybe I'm just not understand you well, but I would like to do better.

Best wishes

 

[AnitaS]

Hello Jesed,

Well, you can't get something as priceless as the ceremony without paying something. If you do, THAT is incurring karmic debt! In ancient times treasures were offered in return for this very Ceremony. One Master on thsi path, in order to receive it from Bodhidharma (creator of Zen), cut off his arm as offering - although that was not what was required. So the pittance of a hundred Indian rupees is nothing in return for this Ceremony! You are paying only that much for a shot at moksha and towards fulfilling the true purpose of your life - which is enlightenment and thus freedom from rebirth. People no longer realise the value of this Ceremony. Some even think a hundred bucks is too much.

As for Autumn's comment on my understanding of the line - as I mentioned earlier, my spiritual guide is my Guruji . Some things need not be asked - I asked the yi that question only at Jesed's sugggestion, knowing already the answer to that. Perhaps that is why it is a transformative line and leads to grace - 22. I am very clear here that accepting such an expensive gift will incur a karmic debt - it's common sense. Unless I can repay it - and no, my good company on the holiday is not enough payment.

 

[AnitaS]

Heylise,

You were right. 18 is about correcting something - whether it be his fantasy about me or my own greed - hex 4 line 3 - so I wrote and assured him I'd like to spend time with him wherever it may be, but the Ceremony is important, and lo and behold he just wrote saying he'd love to come here and is curious about the Ceremony. Yaaay! He'll be here in November.

Best for your Quest

 

[rosada]

Wow! What fun! How terrific!
Thanks for the update.

 

[jesed]

Thanks for your explanation, circe

Best wishes

 

[AnitaS]

I know it's been ages - but I just must post a reply here - he did come to see me in November 2006 and he did come for the Ceremony but our relationship was a mess because I stuck to my celibacy. And of course, I did not go to Greece! Am I glad I didn't! Can't imagine what would have happened in such unpleasant circumstances far from home. I'm glad he could attend the Ceremony. And I never heard from him again. My feelings for him were never profound but when we met after 2 years or so, they were almost nonexistent.