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Having a natter with the Yi

Tohpol

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I know it's stating the obvious but the Yi really is the most extraordinary tool.

I just find it incredible that I can have a conversation of sorts with this "spirit" or whatever one wants to call it. I'm really coming to the conclusion that this is simply our higher selves from the future place of completion talking to us via this kind of Cosmic code.

Tonight, I really felt like I was talking to something or someone that knew me so well, so inside out that it was just plain....can't think of the word. Beautiful? Understanding that goes beyond the senses and your ego for brief moment - like a diamond pitched into into the subconscious sinking slowly to the place it's needed. You know those colours of the spectrum that can be seen as it catches the light... refraction under the surface of the water. As a result you feel it as a delayed mix of hope and humility.

That's not to say that it gilded the lilly in anyway or sugar-coated the reality. That's also what is so vital about the Yi. It tells it as it is with what seems an understanding who you are at this stage in development.

I've still only scratched the surface of what this book has to offer and I I'm still stunned how pertinent and plain humourous it can all be. That's not to say I will ever explore all the many nuances and theories as others do here - the passion is spread over other connections so to speak but the I Ching remains such a fascinating enigma, such an important guide for self knowledge that it can't be underesimated. I guess I feel very lucky to at least have established some kind of resonance with even if my overall depth of knowledge is still lacking.

There are times when the blues descend that I think it is merely a projection - even a delusion; a circular feedback of neurological daring-do. But looking back at the patterns and notes - clearly there is a design that surpasses any wise teacher I have known. And I've known a few.

It is sad that the Bible remains the definitive conduit for spiritual influence where although it has provided some forms of sustenance it's overiding legacy is division and polarization. The I Ching however - with the Wilhelm version in mind - still remains the most direct and simple way to take personal responsibility for oneself if you're willing to work at it. It seems to be a practical, pragmatic and extremely objective guide to self-knowledge and development. (IMO)

It is very difficult to introduce the I Ching to those with a mindset fixed in material things without daring to open their minds to the mystery of life that must surely include the workings of the Yi.

Without the I Ching I'm quite convinced I would have been in a very deep depressive pit with not much energy to find my way out. You gotta do the work of course, and it doesn't end but I find myself quite grateful for that guidance wherever it's source comes from - our brains - our future selves or some vast Oversoul infusing everything (or all three). Doesn't really matter I suppose.

Topal
 

dobro p

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The more work you do on yourself, the better you get to know yourself, the less you'll need the support the Yi offers. Cuz the more work you do on yourself, the better you get to know yourself, the more you trust the part of yourself you DON'T know to reveal itself eventually, and the more you start to get working guidance from the higher part of yourself that you used to be out of touch with (until you started to work on yourself and got to know yourself).

See, the Yi is for people who want to know what they don't know. But when you start to get knowledge of yourself and when you start to access your higher self, you not only know more (and so you don't need the Yi) but you also start to trust all that you don't know, and trust the process you're part of (and so you don't need the Yi).

It's a beautiful thing in the meantime though.
 

fkegan

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Are our "higher selves" the ultimate or is there objective intelligence beyond us?

Hi Topal and Dobro,

Nice to see the two Western psychology buffs at different stages of realization that there does exist objective reality beyond the assumption only our own brains exist and all unknowns can be tucked away into some mysterious and as yet not proven higher selves.

I personally relate to Topal's latest realization and mystical appreciation of the Yi. It is a great experience to begin to experience for yourself the amazing world within and beyond. It is an ongoing process without a finish line and totally unique for each individual.

To Dobro's liberal attempt to wrap a Western-objective blanket around a universal mystical experience, I can only smile. It does remind me of another Jung anecdote though. Back in the magical '70's of the last century I was walking in our neighborhood, with a friend trained as an artist (and having a personal interest in military history).We ambled into a bookstore and he was attracted to browse a big coffee table book on Jung with lovely color photos of Jungian images and archetypes.

He turned to one page, looked at it awhile and then pointed it out to me in disapproval and disdain. The lovely, symmetrical color image was termed an ancient mandala of the ultimate happiness. He told me that was a misunderstanding--it was obviously a drawing of the ultimate pre-artillery fortification composed of castle walls all arranged to be polygons having sharp points everywhere (thus no flat expanses to be easier to batter with rams). Within each castle wall was a moat and this symmetrical (and colorful) arrangement continued for a number of layers with the most secure Keep at the center.

A practical picture of ideal security from ancient India became Jungian mandala.

Similarly, the notion of some higher, as yet unknown and undetected, aspect of the process of personal development which supersedes the mystical reality known universally, globally and subjectively is just another part of the medieval Scholastic nonsense that they and their library books knew all Truth and everything else could be safely ignored, denigrated and of course destroyed.

I hope, Dobro, your personal process takes you to a realization that your inner process is just a window upon mystical. Yes, Atman = Brahman, but that is a separate insight from the ability of symbolic patterns to connect to the mystical personal experience.

However, things appear as we are open to experiencing them, we all hope you manage your process to get to get to a better place as best you can when it is appropriate for you. Your comments about 'other folks' not being as sophisticated as you is what it is also--sorry for your inner problems there.

Frank
 

Tohpol

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The more work you do on yourself, the better you get to know yourself, the less you'll need the support the Yi offers. Cuz the more work you do on yourself, the better you get to know yourself, the more you trust the part of yourself you DON'T know to reveal itself eventually, and the more you start to get working guidance from the higher part of yourself that you used to be out of touch with (until you started to work on yourself and got to know yourself).

See, the Yi is for people who want to know what they don't know. But when you start to get knowledge of yourself and when you start to access your higher self, you not only know more (and so you don't need the Yi) but you also start to trust all that you don't know, and trust the process you're part of (and so you don't need the Yi).

It's a beautiful thing in the meantime though.


Like what you said above Dobro. This is exactly how I see it.

Topal
 

mudpie

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as liz lesser says, "it takes a fearless soul to live the mystery".

I don't know that there is an 'arrival point', where one accesses a higher self and no longer 'needs' to use the Yi. That premise is questionable to begin with. To 'need' the Yi is kind of implying that a tool of some kind is needed to access the truth of the "higher self' and in that sense, it just ain't so.

No one NEEDS the yi, but one can imagine that they need the yi, in the same way that people in 12 step programs sometimes - maybe often - assume they NEED the 12 step meetings in order to connect to their Source. the Source is nearer than one's own breathing. Thats why I believe the message in the 12 steps, and perhaps use of the Yi in general, is misunderstood.

To use an example, People who go to 12 step groups are introduced, for maybe the first time, to the Great Reality of which they are a part. BUt because they have never experienced conscious contact with Great Reality before, they wrongfully attribute their sudden enlightenment to the group, and - also wrongfully - assume that they need to cling to the group or the meetings in order to stay connected. That ain't so, just as it isnt true that one needs the Yi to access the Self- knowledge.

and yet, I dont think there comes this final point where either the Yi, or a group, or any other kind of spiritual ignition, is EVER not helpful.

As Dobro, himself, has often pointed out, the ego mind is slippery and opportunistic. all it takes is one firm conviction that one has GOT IT, for keeps, and the door is open for the ego to subtly take control again. It is the ego that says "hey , I'm connected all on my own, I don't need any help or input, I trust myself and my process..." The really ironic thing is that THAT statement is very true, one always has an inherent (potential) connection to Source, and yet the very act of pigeonholing it, of holding it tightly, somewhat smugly?, causes it to slip through your fingers.

The path of connection to Source is a very thin line between two worlds and one must remain ever alert, vigilant, and open to the mystery. Using the Yi is like having a quality control. sometimes I feel so sure and "in tune" and the Yi points out something completely unseen, bursts my little bubble, reminds me that I don't know so much as I might imagine i do, and then I become like the Fool again, humbled, and once again opened to the mystery....the very mystery that I simply cannot hold in my hand for once and always, because the mystery is like a kaleidoscope, ever in flux.

It is this living in the mystery and being vigilantly open to it, that keeps me coming back to the YI. I don't need it, you don't need it, no one needs it, but it is a sort ( one sort among many) of access to The Well, 48. I am always free to dip my bucket into it. and the act of doing so is something akin to humbly praying or meditating.

as far as the Yi goes, it is like that old song....." I just drop in to see what condition my (human) condition is in..."
 

hilary

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Of course what she meant to talk about was a need for what-comes-through-Yi... Listener is right, of course:
To 'need' the Yi is kind of implying that a tool of some kind is needed to access the truth of the "higher self' and in that sense, it just ain't so.
And I also couldn't agree more that the 'final point' where you outgrow all the helpers is a phantom. Not that it isn't possible - I'm sure it must be - but that there has to be something better to focus on.

I don't think what Yi offers has a huge amount to do with 'knowing stuff', when you get right down to it. That's probably the felt need that most often gets people started with divination: wanting to know, wanting to be sure of the right thing to do, wanting to escape the uncertainty. Only then it turns out that that kind of sureness only comes as part of something quite different.

Also, I can't help noticing that the extra knowledge, wonderful and undeniably useful though it is, is only a small part of what-comes-through-Yi. There's the experience of being seen, heard and spoken to, which changes people in itself. And there's also something else that happens at the point of contact, which as far as I can make out has nothing whatsoever to do with the transmission of knowledge. I don't know what it is.
 
M

meng

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I don't think what Yi offers has a huge amount to do with 'knowing stuff', when you get right down to it.
:)

I think if anything, Yi helps to filter and refine stuff we already think we know, and can help us to (re)connect with the essentials.
 

mudpie

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hmmm, I should read Hilary's blog more often. I love the image of the simple jug brought to the well. come to think of it, i love the image of having many varied and colorful jugs to bring to the well : ) Today< I come with a little silver cup, tomorrow, my big ceramic floral jug, and the next day, my most sacred Holy Grail, reserved for really big queries.....ahhh, dont get me started....!

And there's also something else that happens at the point of contact, which as far as I can make out has nothing whatsoever to do with the transmission of knowledge. I don't know what it is.

I would like to hear this elaborated on!!
 

hilary

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Mm. Thing is, I have practically nothing to say about it. I remember once reading for someone who told me the next day that, while she didn't remember anything in particular of what I'd said, her life was transformed. That set all my interpretive brilliance nicely in perspective.

And the week before last, I entered into my weekly reading with the lead weight of depression just starting to settle on me again - something I saw coming with complete dread and panic, as when it comes, it sits. At some point during the reading, I realised it had gone. It's still gone. And while, naturally, I do remember all I learned from the reading, which included some spectacular 'aha!' moments about where the depressive feelings come from and what overcomes them, the inner shift was something else.

So I can point to a few times when it's happened, and I know there are other times where this is still happening, just not so easy to see separately from the knowledge-and-understanding part. But I don't know what it is. Maybe what Christians call grace?
 

dobro p

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And I also couldn't agree more that the 'final point' where you outgrow all the helpers is a phantom.

Maybe. But I know of no story of any evolved being in the lore of this planet that talked about how they used a physical oracle like the Yi to live their lives. Not Jesus, not the Buddha. Not Ramakrisha, not Ramana. Not Nisargadatta, not Rumi. (Which is one reason I don't put that much stock in Confucius - he used the oracle all the time...)

I don't think what Yi offers has a huge amount to do with 'knowing stuff', when you get right down to it.

Mmmm...PART of what the Yi offers is knowledge, *AND* I'd go right along with Meng when he says: "I think if anything, Yi helps to filter and refine stuff we already think we know, and can help us to (re)connect with the essentials."


That's probably the felt need that most often gets people started with divination: wanting to know, wanting to be sure of the right thing to do, wanting to escape the uncertainty. Only then it turns out that that kind of sureness only comes as part of something quite different.

Well, the motivation a questioner has is the thing that distinguishes where they're at with the oracle, right? Some people want to know what they need to DO; some people want to know what they need to KNOW; some people want to know what the other person's thinking and feeling; and some people just want to know where they left their keys. All of those things are somewhere on the scale of KNOWING. But although the first two motivations are part of my use of the Yi, a bigger felt need on my part is to get in touch with whatever it is that informs the Yi, to get in touch with that unknown dimension (Is it me? Is it an angel? Is it God? Is it the spirit of a dead Chinese sage? Dunno. I suspect it's the first one I listed, but I really don't know...) that makes the Yi work. It's like prayer, in other words. Not the prayer that asks God for things, but prayer that gets in touch with the divine.

Also, I can't help noticing that the extra knowledge, wonderful and undeniably useful though it is, is only a small part of what-comes-through-Yi. There's the experience of being seen, heard and spoken to, which changes people in itself. And there's also something else that happens at the point of contact, which as far as I can make out has nothing whatsoever to do with the transmission of knowledge. I don't know what it is.

Mmm...same response as the one just above.
 

Tohpol

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And there's also something else that happens at the point of contact, which as far as I can make out has nothing whatsoever to do with the transmission of knowledge. I don't know what it is.

I guess that depends how we define knowledge. Knowledge in terms of information isn't knowledge. But knowledge that is applied has no limitation whatsoever - it's quite literally infinite and is as close to the esoteric concept of light and love in the non-new-agey sense as I can define it.

So, maybe it's not the transmission of knowledge - but transmission of data using archetypal renderings which also and perhaps more powerfully addresses the subconscious level. This is then transformed into knowledge in the highest sense if the querent takes up the mantle. This allows folks to take responsibility for their lives and increase their awareness at whatever degree and in a gentle way. The more awareness you have the less illusion you have and the less illusion you have the closer you are to "God."

Maybe the work with the Yi never finishes but it is consulted less and less as the student begins to Master himself and connect quite literally to the Master within. I guess that takes many lives.

Interesting.

Topal
 

Sparhawk

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hmmm, I should read Hilary's blog more often.

You mean you don't?? :eek: Good insights there. Not to mention some of the commenters are really charming... :D
 

linerider

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I'm with dobro on this one.
The Yi is wonderful, but it is never more than an abstraction of the world around you; a map. Maps are great to consult now and then but the more you know your territory (in this case, life) the less you need it.
With self-knowledge, and world-knowledge, it's apparent that "mystical experiences" and "western-objective knowledge" aren't at odds with each other.
What I'm trying to say is that daily life is the ultimate mystical experience; not head games with coins or cards or stars. Dinner conversation, "boy, these black beans are dee-lish!" with another conscious human being, or just waking up in the morning is just as mystical/mysterious as the Yi.
I love the Yi, I communicate with it every day. But it seems like a crutch: I'd rather find the answer in myself; in experimenting with life.
 

getojack

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The Yi is a great tool for self-discovery mainly because it's so damn opaque, forcing you to find yourself in the answer.
 

cesca

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I’d like to respond to something Topal and Dobro said in the first two posts on this thread, about the beauty of the Yi.

Beauty helps keep us on the path. Sutras are beautiful, sacred music is beautiful, mandalas are beautiful. Whatever it is that inspires us to ‘take up the mantle’, in any particular moment – whatever keeps us moving toward knowing (as distinct from ‘knowing about’) and living the Divine – that’s what we need in that moment.

The Yi is BEAUTIFUL, in its incredibly complex multi-dimensional structure, and yes, in the opacity of its language -- language that you have to move toward, and read as poetry, to connect with if you’re going to use it as a spiritual tool.

My daily reading today was 31, no changing lines. There is something of that quality between all of us and the Yi – an attraction, a fascination, that keeps us coming back to it, open to be influenced by it. And it’s deep enough, multi-layered and multi-faceted enough, to have something for everyone.
 

fkegan

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about the beauty of the Yi...

"Beauty is truth, truth beauty. That is all ye know on Earth, and all ye need to know." John Keats

There is a universal dichotomy between the subjective including divination and the objective dissection of things. Topal started out in a lovely statement of a moment of personal reaction to his divination and then, as is the way of such things the moment passed and the objective discussion moved along.

Yet, beauty does indeed remain the point of contact between subjective and objective. The Yi oracle is impressive in its ability to create beauty from simple number patterns (heads-3, tails-2 or the like) put into a convenient gua matrix of line spaces. It is even more impressive as one focuses in detail upon this process of focus-emphasis emerging from background-context which can be seen to transcend the graphic details or the words or the ancient poetry.

Then there is the whole different set of issues on whose mentor is better Confucius giving new interpretation and useful meaning to the Yi for Imperial bureaucrats trying to survive in their "cubicles" or Jesus sending out male/female pairs as brother and sister to beg to share a meal with wine and show the magic available when status and prejudice were slipped away, or Buddha teaching that the great goals of life were many lifetimes away so the fastest way to succeed was to slow down, meditate and avoid doing rash and damaging things.

Is bread and wine less of an outside tool than milfoil and text or is using meditation and contemplation as a carbon-based computer monitor really not reaching beyond our own consciousness? The larger question becomes now that brain scans can indicate what parts of the human brain are active in any situation can anyone really hide from their fear of the magic beyond individual self by saying its just my higher self I am not aware of yet; rather than the Cosmic reality that would require belief in 'supernatural' existences forbidden by the medieval Scholastics?

Frank
 

fkegan

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Subjective truth is Beautiful; Objective Beauty is rarely True...

Hi Trojan,

Trojan: Why does beauty = truth ? I never understood that phrase. What is beautiful doesn't have to bear any connection to what is truthful and the truth isn't always beautiful.

Your post seems to have eluded the database, though it is a good one. The key to your difficulty lies in the distinction between the subjective and the objective. If we are discussing objective Truth, then it is generally not at all beautiful, especially if it involves different folks with differing premises and expectations. Objective beauty is its own quagmire, perhaps why it has been replaced by Profit in modern corporate notions of abstract ideals folks can esteem, strive for and if necessary fight about.

It is subjective Truth that feels beautiful and which Topal seems to have been expressing in his original post. Subjective Beauty is a more general expression of those human feelings that one is experiencing ultimate value and primary reality.

Frank
 

Trojina

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It is subjective Truth that feels beautiful and which Topal seems to have been expressing in his original post. Subjective Beauty is a more general expression of those human feelings that one is experiencing ultimate value and primary reality.

Frank

Ah I see better...still i don't relate the experience of ultimate value as equating to beauty. Isn't primary reality beyond impressions of what is beautiful and what isn't ? No don't answer that I've a feeling this is a concept that I won't get.
 

fkegan

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To we see beauty or experience it?

Ah I see better...still i don't relate the experience of ultimate value as equating to beauty. Isn't primary reality beyond impressions of what is beautiful and what isn't ? No don't answer that I've a feeling this is a concept that I won't get.

Hi Trojan,

I believe you can understand the concept of experiencing beauty as well as any other concept. It is the objective/subjective issue you seem to be having a problem with. It isn't ultimately that one experiences some ultimate truth or value as a lovely woman or whatever else one considers beautiful.

This personal relationship is experienced as beauty as one establishes something beyond oneself that is at the same time very much part of one's Self in its ultimate context . Buber speaks of this in his book I and Thou where this intimate personal relationship is the focus, not particularly what it is that one is thus relating to.

Something similar happens when one person is awestruck by someone they find ultimately beautiful. Another person might remark, "so you wish to spend time together?" And the reply would be, "No, no...I am totally involved now in just this appreciation of Beauty!"

Our emotional vocabulary is somewhat limited in the human species. Some say emotions are only a reaction to psychoactive chemicals that may be released into our bloodstream due to various stimuli. In any event, our experiences extend over a much greater range than our emotions---so one can feel beauty in reaction to a number of experiences.

When a Yi oracle or a mathematical proof fit just so exactly and perfectly into the framework of one's mind, there can be a reaction of having appreciated ultimate beauty. Also, something equally striking in its beauty can give a sense of "This is Truth!" and thus Keats' remarks upon that Grecian urn with its artistic beauty capturing the moment as a kiss is about to be shared that moved the poet to note Truth=Beauty as the sum total of all human knowledge.

Frank
 

Trojina

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well thankyou for the explanation :)
 

Tohpol

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Hi Trojan,

I believe you can understand the concept of experiencing beauty as well as any other concept. It is the objective/subjective issue you seem to be having a problem with. It isn't ultimately that one experiences some ultimate truth or value as a lovely woman or whatever else one considers beautiful.

Although a lovely woman is one of the better experiences of beauty that we can mention. :D

( Luis' Art of Lechery is contagious)

Topal
 

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