...life can be translucent

Menu

Heavenly Stems and Earthly Branches

lienshan

visitor
Joined
May 22, 1970
Messages
431
Reaction score
0
http://www.appositive.net/oysterbay/iching/kingwen.pdf

Chapter one
- - - - - - - - - - - - - group of 2 complementary hexagrams:
01 !!! !!!
02 ::: :::
- - - - - - - - - - - - - TWELVE EARTHLY BRANCHES
03 :!: ::! 04 !:: :!: ZI
05 :!: !!! 06 !!! :!: CHOU
07 ::: :!: 08 :!: ::: YIN
09 !!: !!! 10 !!! :!! MAO
11 ::: !!! 12 !!! ::: CHEN
13 !!! !:! 14 !:! !!! SI
15 ::: !:: 16 ::! ::: WU
17 :!! ::! 18 !:: !!: WEI
19 ::: :!! 20 !!: ::: SHEN
21 !:! ::! 22 !:: !:! YOU
23 !:: ::: 24 ::: ::! XU
25 !!! ::! 26 !:: !!! HAI
- - - - - - - - - - - - - group of 4 complementary hexagrams:
27 !:: ::!
28 :!! !!:
29 :!: :!:
30 !:! !:!

Chapter two
- - - - - - - - - - - - - TEN HEAVENLY STEMS
31 :!! !:: 32 ::! !!: JIA
33 !!! !:: 34 ::! !!! YI
35 !:! ::: 36 ::: !:! BING
37 !!: !:! 38 !:! :!! DING
39 :!: !:: 40 ::! :!: WU
41 !:: :!! 42 !!: ::! JI
43 :!! !!! 44 !!! !!: GENG
45 :!! ::: 46 ::: !!: XIN
47 :!! :!: 48 :!: !!: REN
49 :!! !:! 50 !:! !!: GUI
- - - - - - - - - - - - - group of 14 complementary hexagrams:
51 ::! ::! 52 !:: !::
53 !!: !:: 54 ::! :!!
55 ::! !:! 56 !:! !::
57 !!: !!: 58 :!! :!!
59 !!: :!: 60 :!: :!!
61 !!: :!!
62 ::! !::
63 :!: !:! 64 !:! :!:

http://www.mandala.dk/view-blog.php4?blogID=591
 

sergio

visitor
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
396
Reaction score
0
Hi Lienshan;
could you elaborate on this posting?Are you correlating the branches and stems tot he hexagrams?If so,what is the rationale?How do you determine that those are the relations to one and the other?
Sergio
 

lienshan

visitor
Joined
May 22, 1970
Messages
431
Reaction score
0
hi Sergio

I used the scheme and method of Denis Mair, but instead of his "Any breaks in the alternation are marked by figures having three yin and three yang lines", I used the rule "Any breaks in the alternation are marked by a group of at least two complementary figures". The result was the hexagrampair pattern shown:

group 1-2 / twelve figures / group 27 to 30 / ten figures / group 51 to 64

The twelve figures could be milfoil Earthly Branch symbols? These are wellknown from Shang Oracle Bones as pictographs dating the tortoise divinations. There is no other pattern indicating another symbolic than this:

03 :!: ::! 04 !:: :!: ZI ........ 2 yang-lines (less)
05 :!: !!! 06 !!! :!: CHOU ... 4 yang-lines (more)
07 ::: :!: 08 :!: ::: YIN ...... 1 yang-line (less)
09 !!: !!! 10 !!! :!! MAO .... 5 yang-lines (more)
11 ::: !!! 12 !!! ::: CHEN ... 3 yang-lines (less)
13 !!! !:! 14 !:! !!! SI ........ 5 yang-lines (more)
15 ::: !:: 16 ::! ::: WU ...... 1 yang-line (less)
17 :!! ::! 18 !:: !!: WEI ..... 3 yang-lines (more)
19 ::: :!! 20 !!: ::: SHEN ... 2 yang-lines (less)
21 !:! ::! 22 !:: !:! YOU ..... 3 yang-lines (more)
23 !:: ::: 24 ::: ::! XU ...... 1 yang-line (less)
25 !!! ::! 26 !:: !!! HAI ..... 4 yang-lines (more)

The ten figures could be milfoil Heavenly Stem symbols?

31 :!! !:: 32 ::! !!: JIA ..... 3 yang-lines (less)
33 !!! !:: 34 ::! !!! YI ....... 4 yang-lines (more)
35 !:! ::: 36 ::: !:! BING ... 2 yang-lines (less)
37 !!: !:! 38 !:! :!! DING ... 4 yang-lines (more)
39 :!: !:: 40 ::! :!: WU ..... 2 yang-lines (less)
41 !:: :!! 42 !!: ::! JI ....... 3 yang-lines (more)
43 :!! !!! 44 !!! !!: GENG .. 5 yang-lines (more) #
45 :!! ::: 46 ::: !!: XIN ..... 2 yang-lines (less) #
47 :!! :!: 48 :!: !!: REN .... 3 yang-lines (less)
49 :!! !:! 50 !:! !!: GUI ..... 4 yang-lines (more)

The Stems are besides dates too the lineage-names of the Shang Kings. The # exceptions could be explained this way: King Wen changed the order of XIN and GENG to place trigram Heaven before trigram Earth in the socalled "Lake-sequence" both to underline the Mandate of Heaven policy and to degrade the XIN-lineage of the last Shang king Di-Xin? Some information about Shang king names:

http://www.indiana.edu/~g380/Kings.pdf

A consequence of the above is, that every odd day in the Shang 60 days calendar was a "yin-day" made of two "less yang-lines" figures, while every even day was a "yang-day" made of two "more yang-lines" figures.

lienshan
 
Last edited:

lienshan

visitor
Joined
May 22, 1970
Messages
431
Reaction score
0
Are you correlating the branches and stems to the hexagrams?
NO ... the 64 hexagrams are a Zhou invention!

The Branches and Stems were a part of the Shang milfoil divination method. They used a system of 36 figures made of six numbers. They used the numbers |X| five, /\ six, t seven, )( eight. They made two figures when divining like they made two figures when showing a day of Branch and Stem. One figure was the the six numbers viewed as odd or even. The other figure was the same six numbers viewed as high or low.

King Wen invented the Zhouyi. At first he changed the positions of Heaven and Earth in the beginning of the Shang sequence and too the positions of the GENG and XIN figures. Then he doubled all the figures, that look different when turned upside down, creating a system of 64 figures. Then he named them and wrote a little statement to each of them. The Duke of Zhou developed the Zhouyi by reducing the numbers used to only
_ one or )( eight and wrote a statement to each of the lines. This created a new Zhou divination method of one hexagram with changing lines instead of the former Shang method of two figures.

lienshan
 

fkegan

visitor
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
0
Lienshan,

That is a great, succinct description of your method and its origins. Also highlights other considerations. The set of 64 hexagrams can also be considered the universe of possible outcomes of a 6 place gua or matrix with one clear marker (or two possible lines variants). Given 64 as the limit of possible hexagrams the question of the sequence becomes a matter of giving meaning to each and every one of the possibilities.

This demonstrates a very different mindset from combinations of 8 trigrams which can be rendered into various riffs or short runs without concern for the total set of all possibilities.

Frank
 

lienshan

visitor
Joined
May 22, 1970
Messages
431
Reaction score
0
Given 64 as the limit of possible hexagrams the question of the sequence becomes a matter of giving meaning to each and every one of the possibilities.
hi Frank

The sequence of the Zhouyi doesn't matter in practical divination, because the King Wen statements
and the Duke of Zhou linetexts give meaning to each and every one of the possibilities. That's why
the Mawangdui silk sequence is just as functional as the King Wen sequence.

The question of the Zhouyi sequence is to me a matter of historical research.

lienshan
 

fkegan

visitor
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
0
hi Frank

Hi Lienshan,
The sequence of the Zhouyi doesn't matter in practical divination, because the King Wen statements
and the Duke of Zhou linetexts give meaning to each and every one of the possibilities. That's why
the Mawangdui silk sequence is just as functional as the King Wen sequence.

The question of the Zhouyi sequence is to me a matter of historical research.

lienshan
That is the question then. Is practical divination what was done from the ancientt times of the Shang or is it what speaks in universal terms to the folks asking questions today?
Are universal principles important or only details matter?

Frank
 

lienshan

visitor
Joined
May 22, 1970
Messages
431
Reaction score
0
The set of 64 hexagrams can also be considered the universe of possible outcomes of a 6 place gua or matrix with one clear marker (or two possible lines variants).
Some details of the King Wen sequence indicate, that the (less) pairs were counted by yang-lines,
while the (more) pairs were counted by yin-lines!

Earthly Branch (less) pairs = 10 yang lines
Heavenly Stem (less) pairs = 12 yang lines
Earthly Branch (more) pairs = 12 yin lines
Heavenly Stem (more) pairs = 10 yin lines

03 :!: ::! 04 !:: :!: ZI ........ 2 yang-lines (less)
05 :!: !!! 06 !!! :!: CHOU ... 4 yang-lines (more) 2 yin-lines
07 ::: :!: 08 :!: ::: YIN ...... 1 yang-line (less)
09 !!: !!! 10 !!! :!! MAO .... 5 yang-lines (more) 1 yin-lines
11 ::: !!! 12 !!! ::: CHEN ... 3 yang-lines (less)
13 !!! !:! 14 !:! !!! SI ........ 5 yang-lines (more) 1 yin-lines
15 ::: !:: 16 ::! ::: WU ...... 1 yang-line (less)
17 :!! ::! 18 !:: !!: WEI ..... 3 yang-lines (more) 3 yin-lines
19 ::: :!! 20 !!: ::: SHEN ... 2 yang-lines (less)
21 !:! ::! 22 !:: !:! YOU ..... 3 yang-lines (more) 3 yin-lines
23 !:: ::: 24 ::: ::! XU ...... 1 yang-line (less)
25 !!! ::! 26 !:: !!! HAI ..... 4 yang-lines (more) 2 yin-lines

31 :!! !:: 32 ::! !!: JIA ..... 3 yang-lines (less)
33 !!! !:: 34 ::! !!! YI ....... 4 yang-lines (more) 2 yin-lines
35 !:! ::: 36 ::: !:! BING ... 2 yang-lines (less)
37 !!: !:! 38 !:! :!! DING ... 4 yang-lines (more) 2 yin-lines
39 :!: !:: 40 ::! :!: WU ..... 2 yang-lines (less)
41 !:: :!! 42 !!: ::! JI ....... 3 yang-lines (more) 3 yin-lines
43 :!! !!! 44 !!! !!: GENG .. 5 yang-lines (more) # 1 yin-lines
45 :!! ::: 46 ::: !!: XIN ..... 2 yang-lines (less) #
47 :!! :!: 48 :!: !!: REN .... 3 yang-lines (less)
49 :!! !:! 50 !:! !!: GUI ..... 4 yang-lines (more) 2 yin-lines

Details are sometimes harder to understand than universal principles :D

lienshan
 

fkegan

visitor
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
0
Some details of the King Wen sequence indicate, that the (less) pairs were counted by yang-lines,
while the (more) pairs were counted by yin-lines!

Earthly Branch (less) pairs = 10 yang lines
Heavenly Stem (less) pairs = 12 yang lines
Earthly Branch (more) pairs = 12 yin lines
Heavenly Stem (more) pairs = 10 yin lines

03 :!: ::! 04 !:: :!: ZI ........ 2 yang-lines (less)
05 :!: !!! 06 !!! :!: CHOU ... 4 yang-lines (more) 2 yin-lines
07 ::: :!: 08 :!: ::: YIN ...... 1 yang-line (less)
09 !!: !!! 10 !!! :!! MAO .... 5 yang-lines (more) 1 yin-lines
11 ::: !!! 12 !!! ::: CHEN ... 3 yang-lines (less)
13 !!! !:! 14 !:! !!! SI ........ 5 yang-lines (more) 1 yin-lines
15 ::: !:: 16 ::! ::: WU ...... 1 yang-line (less)
17 :!! ::! 18 !:: !!: WEI ..... 3 yang-lines (more) 3 yin-lines
19 ::: :!! 20 !!: ::: SHEN ... 2 yang-lines (less)
21 !:! ::! 22 !:: !:! YOU ..... 3 yang-lines (more) 3 yin-lines
23 !:: ::: 24 ::: ::! XU ...... 1 yang-line (less)
25 !!! ::! 26 !:: !!! HAI ..... 4 yang-lines (more) 2 yin-lines

31 :!! !:: 32 ::! !!: JIA ..... 3 yang-lines (less)
33 !!! !:: 34 ::! !!! YI ....... 4 yang-lines (more) 2 yin-lines
35 !:! ::: 36 ::: !:! BING ... 2 yang-lines (less)
37 !!: !:! 38 !:! :!! DING ... 4 yang-lines (more) 2 yin-lines
39 :!: !:: 40 ::! :!: WU ..... 2 yang-lines (less)
41 !:: :!! 42 !!: ::! JI ....... 3 yang-lines (more) 3 yin-lines
43 :!! !!! 44 !!! !!: GENG .. 5 yang-lines (more) # 1 yin-lines
45 :!! ::: 46 ::: !!: XIN ..... 2 yang-lines (less) #
47 :!! :!: 48 :!: !!: REN .... 3 yang-lines (less)
49 :!! !:! 50 !:! !!: GUI ..... 4 yang-lines (more) 2 yin-lines

Details are sometimes harder to understand than universal principles :D

lienshan
Hi Lienshan,
If details are the harder question, we still come back to why 41 and 43 are a pair of (more) in a row and 45 & 47 are a pair of less when all the others alternate more/less. One counterexample disproves a set of details.

Also, what makes divination practical? Most of the time when I have heard folks advocate what is "practical" upon further analysis it is just what is already established and therefore requires no new thinking.

The wonder of the King Wen decad analysis is that it offers a clear answer that fits all 64 hexagrams without any exceptions to ignore AND it is an analysis of meaning that offers in addition new insights that hadn't been apparent before. Perhaps not traditional or practical in the sense of doing the same old thing, but amazing and exciting in the new discoveries available from 1100 BCE to this very day--and tomorrow too. :)

Frank
 

lienshan

visitor
Joined
May 22, 1970
Messages
431
Reaction score
0
One counterexample disproves a set of details.
There are in fact TWO :eek: counterexamples (#). They might disprove the set of details, but they might as well tell exactly which hexagrams that was changed? Just like looking for fingerprints after a crime ;)

The original (Guicang) order probably looked like:

02 ::: ::: ...................... 0 yang-lines (less) #
01 !!! !!! ...................... 6 yang-lines (more) #

03 :!: ::! 04 !:: :!: ZI ........ 2 yang-lines (less)
05 :!: !!! 06 !!! :!: CHOU ... 4 yang-lines (more)
07 ::: :!: 08 :!: ::: YIN ...... 1 yang-line (less)
09 !!: !!! 10 !!! :!! MAO .... 5 yang-lines (more)
11 ::: !!! 12 !!! ::: CHEN ... 3 yang-lines (less)
13 !!! !:! 14 !:! !!! SI ........ 5 yang-lines (more)
15 ::: !:: 16 ::! ::: WU ...... 1 yang-line (less)
17 :!! ::! 18 !:: !!: WEI ..... 3 yang-lines (more)
19 ::: :!! 20 !!: ::: SHEN ... 2 yang-lines (less)
21 !:! ::! 22 !:: !:! YOU ..... 3 yang-lines (more)
23 !:: ::: 24 ::: ::! XU ...... 1 yang-line (less)
25 !!! ::! 26 !:: !!! HAI ..... 4 yang-lines (more)

27 !:: ::! ..................... 2 yang-lines (less)
28 :!! !!: ..................... 4 yang-lines (more)
29 :!: :!: ..................... 2 yang-lines (less)
30 !:! !:! ..................... 4 yang-lines (more)

31 :!! !:: 32 ::! !!: JIA ..... 3 yang-lines (less)
33 !!! !:: 34 ::! !!! YI ....... 4 yang-lines (more)
35 !:! ::: 36 ::: !:! BING ... 2 yang-lines (less)
37 !!: !:! 38 !:! :!! DING ... 4 yang-lines (more)
39 :!: !:: 40 ::! :!: WU ..... 2 yang-lines (less)
41 !:: :!! 42 !!: ::! JI ....... 3 yang-lines (more)
45 :!! ::: 46 ::: !!: GENG ... 2 yang-lines (less) #
43 :!! !!! 44 !!! !!: XIN ..... 5 yang-lines (more) #
47 :!! :!: 48 :!: !!: REN .... 3 yang-lines (less)
49 :!! !:! 50 !:! !!: GUI ..... 4 yang-lines (more)

51 ::! ::! 52 !:: !:: .......... 2 yang-lines (less)
53 !!: !:: 54 ::! :!! .......... 3 yang-lines (more)
55 ::! !:! 56 !:! !:: .......... 3 yang-lines (less)
57 !!: !!: 58 :!! :!! .......... 4 yang-lines (more)
59 !!: :!: 60 :!: :!! .......... 3 yang-lines (less)
61 !!: :!! ..................... 4 yang-lines (more)
62 ::! !:: ..................... 2 yang-lines (less)
63 :!: !:! 64 !:! :!: .......... 3 yang-lines (more)

A detail worth noticing is, that the first hexagram (3) of the Branch sequence is complementary with the last hexagram (50) of the Stem sequence.

Another detail worth noticing is, that the hexagram 52 Mountain is next to the Stem sequence. This hexagram was according to legend first in the Lienshan-sequence of the Xia yi ... maybe the less and more yang-line structure is very very old? It looks like predating the idea of trigrams ...

A problem worth noticing is, that I can't find any translation of the Branch and Stem pictographs? :(

lienshan
 
Last edited:

fkegan

visitor
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
0
Another evidence of KWS improvement over older sequence

There are in fact TWO counterexamples (#). They might disprove the set of details, but they might as well tell exactly which hexagrams that was changed? Just like looking for fingerprints after a crime
The crime of progress!? However, it does focus the issue upon what is the proper sequence in the decad from hex 41-50 or even more exactly, what is the expression of the human effort to express the desire to connect to the Divine in terms of a pair of polar opposites:
42 as the human appreciation of the gifts from the Divine, like the loving Mother to infant as originating structure which then is paired with the human effort either of hex 43 to focus upon charging process without any focus upon the Next
Vs. 45 the situation of focus upon feelings and mental organization only.

It works for me. The earlier sequence has the right balance of more or less line qualities. The King Wen has meaning within the Dyad framework. Thus the exchange of 43 and 45 in the sequence turns an older system into the nifty new system. :cool: Sweet!

Now then, why would anyone want the mere more or less stuff over the detailed hexagram meaning for each hexagram and sequence number?

Frank
 

frank_r

visitor
Joined
Jun 20, 1971
Messages
639
Reaction score
0
A problem worth noticing is, that I can't find any translation of the Branch and Stem pictographs? :(

Hallo Lienshan,

I hope it is not to small to read.
It's from the book Chinese astrology from Derek Walters.

Branches:

Tzu - child
Ch'ou - Clown
Yin - Reverence
Mao - a constellation
Ch'en Dawn, morning
Ssu a snake
Wu - noon
Wei - not yet
Shen -stretch
Yu - Liquor
Shu - a weapon
Hai - darkness

Stems

Chia - armoir
Yi - One, a hook
Ping - South -fire
Ting - Used for a name of an unknown person
Wu - flourising
Chi - extreme
Keng - Orbit, west, evening star
Hsin - Bitter
Jen - Great - north
Kuei - North Water ( heavenly water

I have also some other translations so if you want to know I will you give these later. They are from the stems and branches from the acupuncture.

Frank
 

lienshan

visitor
Joined
May 22, 1970
Messages
431
Reaction score
0
It works for me.
hi Frank ... GREAT :pompom:

Now then, why would anyone want the mere more or less stuff over the detailed hexagram meaning for each hexagram and sequence number?
hi Frank R ... thanks for the translation :)

The first branch is translated "child" ... the corresponding hexagrams 3 and 4 are "Difficulty at the beginning" and "Youthful folly" ... even a child can recognize a context. I really look foreward to examine the sequence from this point of view :cool:

lienshan
 

fkegan

visitor
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
0
hi Frank ... GREAT :pompom:


hi Frank R ... thanks for the translation :)

The first branch is translated "child" ... the corresponding hexagrams 3 and 4 are "Difficulty at the beginning" and "Youthful folly" ... even a child can recognize a context. I really look foreward to examine the sequence from this point of view :cool:

lienshan
Hi Lienshan,
Is Tzu just a little one? There are long discussions on other threads of the other implications of this ideogram, son as the extension of illustrious ancestors into current life, children as the gift from the Divine producing awe and inspiring sacrifice, etc.

hex 3 and 4 are clearly about beginning things; however does this similarity continue to work throughout the sequence? Hex 3 is also Initiation, the Divine process of getting things started as thunder begins the Spring rains and the growing season.
Good Luck with your further efforts from this point of view.

Frank
 

sergio

visitor
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
396
Reaction score
0
A Zhou invention?

NO ... the 64 hexagrams are a Zhou invention!
Hi Lienshan,
sorry for the long delay in answering back-been terribly busy up till now.Regarding the above statement please check this paper posted sometime ago by Luis:SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT MILFOIL DIVINATION BASED ON SHANG AND ZHOU BAGUA NUMERICAL SYMBOLS".It is in the Divination News section.
The Branches and Stems were a part of the Shang milfoil divination method. They used a system of 36 figures made of six numbers. They used the numbers |X| five, /\ six, t seven, )( eight. They made two figures when divining like they made two figures when showing a day of Branch and Stem. One figure was the the six numbers viewed as odd or even. The other figure was the same six numbers viewed as high or low.
I understand the interpretation of those numerals as stems and branches-I still do not understand what you are trying to do by placing the name of the 12 earthly branches and 10 heavenly stems by the hexagram numbers.If you are not correlating or relating them in any way how can they explain the sequence?None of them were ever related to the I Ching hexagrams-they are clearly associated to the 5 elements or processes or agents and are alternately yin or yang and in the case of the 12 earthly branches,to the 12 astrological animal signs.On the "Treatise on harmonizing times and distinguishing directions" commisioned by Emperor Qianlong in 1740,translated by Thomas Aylward as"The Imperial guide to feng shui and chinese astrology"there are pairings of the 12 earthly branches with stems and trigrams and goes on to say that"this convention makes it possible to equate one sexagenary stem/branch pair with each line of a hexagram" been those the primary hexagrams,i.e. the ones that are made of the two same trigrams.And that's it...I also have a translation of the names of the stems and branches from Jean Michel Huon De Kermadec"The way to Chinese astrology-4 pillars of destiny",somewhat similar to the one posted by Frank Kegan oand although it shows a promising beginning at 3/4 the rest of them are no much.Also according to Alfred Huang's classification of the hexagrams by their agent ascendency i.e hexagram 3 is a wood hexagram the series does not match the order of the stems or branches.So...what is it you are relating to the sequence?Is it just a coincidence of a number of hexagrams in between the ones D,Mair uses as dividing markers?If that is so then you can add by the end of the 14 lonely pairs the 28 constellations used in Chinese astrology. Anyway my question(s) are still standing.Again my apologies for my delay in answering.
Sergio
 

lienshan

visitor
Joined
May 22, 1970
Messages
431
Reaction score
0
Is Tzu just a little one?
hi Frank

Maybe, maybe not? I'm more focused on the connection between the twelve branch-translation-words:

Child, Clown, Reverence, Constellation, Dawn, Snake, Noon, Not yet, Stretch, Liquor, Weapon, Darkness

And a thought about one of the ten Stem-translations ...

why name a Shang King ... Ting - Used for a name of an unknown person ???

lienshan
 

fkegan

visitor
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
0
hi Frank

Maybe, maybe not? I'm more focused on the connection between the twelve branch-translation-words:

Child, Clown, Reverence, Constellation, Dawn, Snake, Noon, Not yet, Stretch, Liquor, Weapon, Darkness

And a thought about one of the ten Stem-translations ...

why name a Shang King ... Ting - Used for a name of an unknown person ???

lienshan
Hi Lienshan,

Child for zi? Then "Clown"? It is all a very detailed approach to possible patterns; however, at some point meaning needs to come into the picture and matter. Or at least you must answer Sergio's detailed questions about the entire subject matter.

Ultimately, it still boils down to the fundamental question: What does a riff matter? If you can find 12 hexagrams or 62 that fit some arbitrary pattern does that say anything at all meaningful about the entire Yi?

Frank
 

lienshan

visitor
Joined
May 22, 1970
Messages
431
Reaction score
0
Regarding the above statement please check this paper posted sometime ago by Luis:SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT MILFOIL DIVINATION BASED ON SHANG AND ZHOU BAGUA NUMERICAL SYMBOLS"
The hexagrams made of whole and broken lines are a Zhou invention suited for the Zhouyi divination method. The BaGua Numerical Symbols are figures made of at least four numbers depending of the divination method used. When the at least four numbers are divided into odd and even numbers, then one single archaeological found show the King Wen sequence 7-8-9-10. This indicate, that the whole King Wen hexagram sequence probably is very similar to an older sequence of Numerical Symbols. That's why it's almost impossible to explain the King Wen sequence, because the main order of the hexagrams is decided by the rules of still unknown numerology.
None of them were ever related to the I Ching hexagrams-they are clearly associated to the 5 elements or processes or agents and are alternately yin or yang and in the case of the 12 earthly branches,to the 12 astrological animal signs.
The Earthly Branches and Heavenly Stems are as a fact clearly related to the Shang tortoise divination method predating "5 elements", "yin-yang", "animal signs", etc, with at least 600 years. The Earthly Branches and Heavenly Stems are written on thousands of tortoise plastrons dating the divinations of the Shang kings.

The King Wen sequence chapter one consist of 15 pairs. Three of these pairs are made of a various number of yang-lines: 1-2, 27-28, 29-30, while the twelve pairs in the middle are made of an equal number of yang-lines. Maybe each of these twelve pairs symbolized an Earthly Branch in the older sequence? That'll say, that each pair of hexagram statesments/names is inspired by the meaning of their common Earthly Branch pictograph?

lienshan
 
Last edited:

fkegan

visitor
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
0
When the at least four numbers are divided into odd and even numbers, then one single archaeological found show the King Wen sequence 7-8-9-10. This indicate, that the whole King Wen hexagram sequence probably is very similar to an older sequence of Numerical Symbols. That's why it's almost impossible to explain the King Wen sequence, because the main order of the hexagrams is decided by the rules of still unknown numerology.
{Bold added}

Hi Lienshan,
Really? What is so difficult about using the Chinese numbering system with its sets of 10? Within each set the sequence follows exactly 1 on its own + 2 & 3 as dyad of polar opposites, 3 & 4& 5 as process or narrative and finally the double dichotomy of 7 & 8, 9 & 10 which can also be found in the Tai Chi with its whole circle, two halves shown by swirls, the three stages of eyes, swirls and total symbol within the outer circle and finally the double dichotomy of eyes and swirls in contrasting colors?

In the older line-number system what trigram would 8-7-5 represent? And would these three numbers generate an entire hexagram somehow (reading them up and down perhaps?)

Frank
 

lienshan

visitor
Joined
May 22, 1970
Messages
431
Reaction score
0
What is so difficult about using the Chinese numbering system with its sets of 10?
hi Frank ... that there are not 60 but 64 hexagrams ... the oldest known chinese numbering system are sets of eight tortoise shells found in several 8000 years old shaman graves. One of the shamans had eight shells instead of the head. I'm not connecting these founds with the King Wen sequence but use them to tell, that I prefer researching ancient shamanic numerology to modern phytagorean philosophy in this connection.

In the older line-number system what trigram would 8-7-5 represent? And would these three numbers generate an entire hexagram somehow (reading them up and down perhaps?)
trigram Lake :!! changing to trigram Wind !!:
(6 and 7 correspond to "steady lines" while 5 and 8 correspond to "changing lines" according to the distribution of the divination method 1 Numerical Symbols found)

You can generate an entire hexagram e.g. by following this counting rule:
The inner/lower trigram is made of either odd (5-7) or even (6-8) numbers
The outer/upper trigram is made of either high (7-8) or low (5-6) numbers

lienshan
 

fkegan

visitor
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
0
hi Frank ... that there are not 60 but 64 hexagrams ... the oldest known chinese numbering system are sets of eight tortoise shells found in several 8000 years old shaman graves. One of the shamans had eight shells instead of the head. I'm not connecting these founds with the King Wen sequence but use them to tell, that I prefer researching ancient shamanic numerology to modern phytagorean philosophy in this connection.


trigram Lake :!! changing to trigram Wind !!:
(6 and 7 correspond to "steady lines" while 5 and 8 correspond to "changing lines" according to the distribution of the divination method 1 Numerical Symbols found)

You can generate an entire hexagram e.g. by following this counting rule:
The inner/lower trigram is made of either odd (5-7) or even (6-8) numbers
The outer/upper trigram is made of either high (7-8) or low (5-6) numbers

lienshan
Hi Lienshan,
The current numbering system may not be the oldest but it is assumed it must be thought a better system or why bother with the change? The 64 hexagrams are not an changeable option, they are established by the rules of a 6 place gua with two possible markings. The KWS clearly indicates 6 sets of 10 with a final 4 that are organized in terms of the total line structure rather than philosophical meaning.

I am not adept at ancient hexagram figuring--would the numbers 875 generate a Yi hexagram or oracle in modern terms? Or just the trigram Lake changing to trigram Wind?

Frank
 

sergio

visitor
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
396
Reaction score
0
"The hexagrams made of whole and broken lines are a Zhou invention suited for the Zhouyi divination method. The BaGua Numerical Symbols are figures made of at least four numbers depending of the divination method used. When the at least four numbers are divided into odd and even numbers, then one single archaeological found show the King Wen sequence 7-8-9-10. This indicate, that the whole King Wen hexagram sequence probably is very similar to an older sequence of Numerical Symbols. That's why " it's almost impossible to explain the King Wen sequence, because the main order of the hexagrams is decided by the rules of still unknown numerology."
Hi Lienshan; the known sequences are at least three and two of them are considered older than the KWS.The Lien Shan(sounds familiar?)the Book of Changes of the legendary Hsia Dynasty was supposed to begin with HEXAGRAM KEN-KEEPING STILL then theKUEI tS'ANG WAS TO START WITH HEXAGRAM K'UN.Been that the case,namely that these two older versions start with different hexagrams ,is it possible to say,still .that"the hexagrams are a Chou-King Wen invention"?How are those hexagrams different to the other hexagrams?
"The Earthly Branches and Heavenly Stems are as a fact clearly related to the Shang tortoise divination method predating "5 elements", "yin-yang", "animal signs", etc, with at least 600 years. The Earthly Branches and Heavenly Stems are written on thousands of tortoise plastrons dating the divinations of the Shang kings."
We both agree on the this subject-the ancestry is not in dispute.
"The King Wen sequence chapter one consist of 15 pairs. Three of these pairs are made of a various number of yang-lines: 1-2, 27-28, 29-30, while the twelve pairs in the middle are made of an equal number of yang-lines. Maybe each of these twelve pairs symbolized an Earthly Branch in the older sequence? That'll say, that each pair of hexagram statesments/names is inspired by the meaning of their common Earthly Branch pictograph?"
Now to arrive to such conclusions is basically not a bad idea but I thought you were not correlating any of the stems/branches to the hexagrams in the first place.While you are clearly doing it here,both structurally and symbolically,there is no proof or otherwise material to link or correlate or associate one to the others.So far the only links are the twelve sovereign hexagrams to the twelve earthly branches as a way of showing the increase and decrease of the energy cycles ion the earth,namely the months and the seasons.Other correlations also extend this approach to the days of the week and even to the hours of the day.So,having said all that may we not be dealing with just a calendar reference and mistakingly attaching to it a structural significance that was not intended to be there in the first place?Although the idea of combining the branches and stems to generate hexagrams is certainly interesting that would leave us with 60 hexagrams(I'm sure Frank will be delighted to read this)you are still dealing with 64 hexagrams.Oh, the different methods of divination are just different vehicles to arrive at one destination-the sequence and its explanation still remains basically the same.
Sergio
 

fkegan

visitor
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
0
Hi Sergio,
Nice block of text, I generally use the quote HTML to break things up--but you cited my name so that is great.

Yes, I do appreciate 60 hexagrams as the basic set. I would expect that of a system like branches and stems which at some level must relate to months and days. Twelve groups in a set of 60 6-line figures seems to cry out for 360 lines to mark the circumference of an ecliptic circle. I use hex 3 to 62 for my 60 to correspond to the Sabian Symbols for the 360 degrees of the Zodiac. The pairs 1 & 2 and 63 & 64 are easy to kick upstairs to cardinal points or something leaving the meaty hex 3 as thunderous beginning.

But still the fundamental question--The King Wen does all 64 hexagrams and though new in Chinese history at 1100 BCE it's still old enough for modern appreciation--why cling to the earlier stuff rather than recognize it as less developed.
 

sergio

visitor
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
396
Reaction score
0
Lienshan: my apologies over a glaring mistake on my part.The combination of the stems and branches will yield 120 units not 60 as wrote before-I guess I was thinking about the 5 elements....
Frank: I agree with your view regarding early vs. later approach but some people here are under the impression that the earlier the reference the less corrupted the source it would be.As Luis is keen to point out "this is the Book of Changes -not the Book of fixations".On the other hand it is certainly the type of material that would be developed through time rather than a static credo to follow blindly-that's why we are all here arguing our points,agreeing and disagreeing,attempting to see the light at the end of the tunnel.....and aso correcting our mistakes.
Sergio
 

lienshan

visitor
Joined
May 22, 1970
Messages
431
Reaction score
0
The Lien Shan(sounds familiar?)the Book of Changes of the legendary Hsia Dynasty was supposed to begin with HEXAGRAM KEN-KEEPING STILL then theKUEI tS'ANG WAS TO START WITH HEXAGRAM K'UN.Been that the case,namely that these two older versions start with different hexagrams ,is it possible to say,still .that"the hexagrams are a Chou-King Wen invention"?How are those hexagrams different to the other hexagrams?
hi sergio ... I see your pointe :bows: ... but I still think that there is an important difference. Schuyler Cammann used this definition: "A hexagram is a linear figure composed of six straight whole or broken lines". But the figures of e.g. the Wangjiatai Guicang are composed of the numbers one _ , six /\ and eight )( , like the 3000 year old pottery pat with the King Wen sequence 7-8-9-10

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/attachment.php?attachmentid=399&d=1184489318

The difference is in my opinion, that the Zhouyi whole and broken lines are unnumerical symbols and that's why King Wen could change the older numerical sequence of figures with less and more number one's.

The sequence of Xia-dynasty Lienshan is still legendary, but one detail: their number six is according to founds in their capitol Erlitou written like a V ... that'll say, that a Guicang figure like e.g. :|<<<< was probably written :|>>>> as a Lienshan figure.

Although the idea of combining the branches and stems to generate hexagrams is certainly interesting that would leave us with 60 hexagrams(I'm sure Frank will be delighted to read this)
I think otherwise: Each hexagrampair of equal yang-lines was represented by one stalk. That'll say, that some of the all in all 36 stalks could be used to count the time. 12 stalks from the 18 of chapter one and 10 stalks from the 18 of chapter two. Or put in other words: I try to imagine a pre-book yi divination manual of stalks.

lienshan
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top