Hello Every I Ching fan

[maverickcc]

Hi Maverick

I don't disagree with what you say because there are things I don't know and things I don't understand yet, but I have a personal experience to share fwiw.

Once I asked Yi a" when" question and got hex 19. Facts proved that Yi couldn't be more accourate, I actually got the excact date!

Maria

Dear Maria:

Thank you for your comments.

Could you please show me where and when did you asked the question? And what is the answer you get?

Your example will be a great treasure to us.

Thank you for your help.

Best wishes.

Yours sincerely, Maverickcc

 

[peter2610]

56,3 > 35

Here, I will come to your question, and show briefly how I explain Hex 56,3 -> Hex35, as show in the following. I have not learnt your way to say Hex here, I hope it is not so hard to read. If you have any comments, please let me know. Thank you.

Hello Maverick,

Many thanks for your reply, your interpretation of 56,3 > 35 and gesture of modest intentions regarding 2,3 > 15
My original purpose was to use to 56,3 > 35 as an analogy for the point I was making, but your interpretation is nonetheless very welcome in that it gives an opportunity to observe your approach to an interpretation. Your use of the various related hexagrams was particularly interesting as this is an approach that I, along with many others, also favour.

Perhaps it's worth pointing out that it's not necessary to use graphic images (gua hua) of the hexagrams in your answers; unless, that is, you have a specific point to make in relation to the imagery. Otherwise, it's a lot easier and quicker to simply refer to elements by their name and/or use the standard notation eg: 56,3 > 35
It might be useful to become familiar with some of the terminology that you might meet on Clarity. I must point out that there are other members on Clarity with far more extensive knowledge of this area than my own and that there isn't a uniform consensus on some of these terms, but, for what it's worth, here are some of the English/Chinese terms that you might come across:

Original Hexagram - Ben Gua
Derived Hexagram/Resultant Hexagram/Second Hexagram - Zhi Gua
Nuclear Hexagram/Mutual Hexagram - Hu Gua
Inverse Hexagram - Qian Gua
Reverse Hexagram - Jiao Gua
Opposite Hexagram/Opposite Polarity Hexagram - Pang Tong Gua/Cuo Gua
Sequential Hexagram/Transitional Hexagram - Zhong Gua

Corresponding line in the derived hexagram - Fan Yao
The interrelated line/equivalent line in the inverted hexagram - Qian Yao
The corresponding line in the opposite polarity hexagram - Cuo Yao

Line text - Yao

If you intend to post on Clarity often, it might be worth getting hold of a copy of the Wilhelm/Baynes edition and/or Legge. Also, I strongly recommend that you check-out Bradford Hatcher and LiSe's translations. This isn't to suggest that any of these are more accurate than your Takashima Ekidan, it simply helps if we're all reading off the same page. There is, by the way, only one copy of the Takashima Ekidan in the entire UK library system, held by the British Library, but now, hopefully on its way to Manchester.

Good luck and Best Regards, Peter

 

[maremaria]

Dear Maria:

Thank you for your comments.

Could you please show me where and when did you asked the question? And what is the answer you get?

it was a when question the answer was 16>19 . Don't recall the date or time I asked but the place was greece.

Hope that helps

 

[sooo]

From your questions, I can see you mainly focused on how one read and understand YiJing. It is really can not be judged by others, if you really had read the original text. And, come to how you use during your daily life, it is your own freedom. However, the name of Hex, in the Chinese character, is 卦 or 掛.

For the Character 掛, the left part is one's hand(手); the middle part is(圭), you can image it looks like a ruler; the right part(卜), it looks like a pillar with shadow. From which, you can see, one hex basically means people use the ruler to study the shadow. It can be extended the view it is how the way people study the nature. So, you can see it is not only about the understanding and feeling of the people their own, but also about the nature: Space, and Time, equally.

The author of 十翼／易大传（Ten winds/Da Chuan） is Confucius, he started to study Yijing after his 50th. But he said:

假我数年，若是，我于《易》则彬彬矣。
If I have more years, I can understand Yijing better.

He himself admitted he can not understand Yijing well, but he wrote the Ten Winds. Now we should all read his Ten Winds to understand Yijing, so who else can say he will be the standard?

However, it is well accepted that the Ten Winds is the understand on the view of human, not on the space and time. That is why we said, it will not be sufficient to understand Yijing only based on Ten Winds. We always said that: one should do something on proper situation and proper time, then one can success. For example: Fish can only lived in water, but not land, because the space(environment) is not suitable for them; When you plant seeds in early Spring, you will harvest in Fall, but if you plant in summer, no matter how good care you take of them, you will get nothing, because the time is wrong.

Probably you have known, but I did not found that on this forum: most of the questions came to the forum omitted the time of asking the questions, which is of essential importance. And I did not find clear explain for the description of time on Yijing here.

For example:

Hex2:
坤: 利西南得朋，东北丧朋。
Good to make friends/fortune/couple in South-West, yet will lose in East-North.
This is a statement of space.

Hex 19:
临: 至于八月有凶。
It will come to misfortune on month Eight.
This is a statement of time.

Actually, you may know, every Hex has its own symbol of space and time, which can not be changed by any person.

On the view of human, the statement of I Ching can be understood from any aspect, by any one lived in the world, no problem. But, when comes to the space and time, as far as we know, it is still an open question:

How to describe the direction and time by I Ching when comes to the south part of the earth?
The time 10:00 Am 13th,Aug in New J, is equals to the 10:00 Am 13th, Aug, or 12th, Aug?

Why we start to open our International Version, is to mainly answer the above 2 questions.

According to our plan, it will take us a very long time to accumulate the data(Divination and Fengshui Samples) and analyze them before come to the conclusion. That is why I take all of your questions seriously, and willing to learn from you.

But, if you really know the answer, could you show us some examples how you understand this?

I should highly appreciate your kindness help.

Thank you for your comments and sharing ideas.

Best wishes.

Yours sincerely, Maverickcc

I appreciate the many valuable points you've made.

I read where you spoke of modern Chinese teaching of the ancient Chinese language, sorry I can't now sight where it was. I'd be interested in hearing more about how, in present day China, pre-Confucian history, language and philosophy is being imparted to students?

Some here (not myself) are quite knowledgeable of early renditions of accurate translations. As an observer, I'm curious what comparisons can be made between your understandings.

I'm very curious what differences exist between modern Chinese understanding of Yijing and the more ancient, pre-Confucian understanding. In fact, I personally enjoy taking it back further than that, to its core. I can't translate that, only attempt to interpret it. The best I can do is jump up and down pointing at it like a monkey.

 

[maverickcc]

Hello Maverick,

Many thanks for your reply, your interpretation of 56,3 > 35 and gesture of modest intentions regarding 2,3 > 15
My original purpose was to use to 56,3 > 35 as an analogy for the point I was making, but your interpretation is nonetheless very welcome in that it gives an opportunity to observe your approach to an interpretation. Your use of the various related hexagrams was particularly interesting as this is an approach that I, along with many others, also favour.

Perhaps it's worth pointing out that it's not necessary to use graphic images (gua hua) of the hexagrams in your answers; unless, that is, you have a specific point to make in relation to the imagery. Otherwise, it's a lot easier and quicker to simply refer to elements by their name and/or use the standard notation eg: 56,3 > 35
It might be useful to become familiar with some of the terminology that you might meet on Clarity. I must point out that there are other members on Clarity with far more extensive knowledge of this area than my own and that there isn't a uniform consensus on some of these terms, but, for what it's worth, here are some of the English/Chinese terms that you might come across:

Original Hexagram - Ben Gua
Derived Hexagram/Resultant Hexagram/Second Hexagram - Zhi Gua
Nuclear Hexagram/Mutual Hexagram - Hu Gua
Inverse Hexagram - Qian Gua
Reverse Hexagram - Jiao Gua
Opposite Hexagram/Opposite Polarity Hexagram - Pang Tong Gua/Cuo Gua
Sequential Hexagram/Transitional Hexagram - Zhong Gua

Corresponding line in the derived hexagram - Fan Yao
The interrelated line/equivalent line in the inverted hexagram - Qian Yao
The corresponding line in the opposite polarity hexagram - Cuo Yao

Line text - Yao

If you intend to post on Clarity often, it might be worth getting hold of a copy of the Wilhelm/Baynes edition and/or Legge. Also, I strongly recommend that you check-out Bradford Hatcher and LiSe's translations. This isn't to suggest that any of these are more accurate than your Takashima Ekidan, it simply helps if we're all reading off the same page. There is, by the way, only one copy of the Takashima Ekidan in the entire UK library system, held by the British Library, but now, hopefully on its way to Manchester.

Good luck and Best Regards, Peter

Dear Peter:

Thank you for the detail explanation and information, I will put them into our word list later because now I should really focus on the preparation of exam.

Best wishes.

Yours sincerely, Maverickcc

 

[Sparhawk]

40 years is quite a long time, my master even not older than 35, and probably you are as twice old as I am.

Well, Bruce (Sooo) is very old and wrinkly. 40 years are nothing for him. I started before your master was born too. I guess I was possessed by the youthful spirit of 王弼 or something (definitely under the legal age of consent... )

From your reply, I can see that you are quite familiar with the 十翼／易大传（Ten winds/Da Chuan）, definitely better than I do, I can not recite them all ever since.

The Da Zhuan, or Xi Ci Zhuan are only two, the 5th 繫辭傳上 and 6th 繫辭傳下, out of the ten "wings"...

That would be cool if you really know everything, and you will know the main text of I Ching is 3000 years old, but not even a single character has been added or changed, even with the dramatically changed of our own language.

Simply incorrect and taken on faith. There have been other versions and am not talking about the Lienshan and Guicang... It was only under the Former Han dynasty when the Yijing was "standardized" and even later there were "versions" passed from certain masters, like Jing Fang 京房 for example, to disciples. Then there is the Maguangdui, etc. There's no way to know for certain what the "original" version looked like. To that you compound the text's philological changes over time and ancient meaning for us can be, well, a little muddy...

However, the name of Hex, in the Chinese character, is 卦 or 掛.

For the Character 掛, the left part is one's hand(手); the middle part is(圭), you can image it looks like a ruler; the right part(卜), it looks like a pillar with shadow. From which, you can see, one hex basically means people use the ruler to study the shadow. It can be extended the view it is how the way people study the nature. So, you can see it is not only about the understanding and feeling of the people their own, but also about the nature: Space, and Time, equally.

卦 is correct; 掛 is never used to refer to hexagrams. It means more "to hang, to put up" and only in Chinese slang means something like "shadow". Further, that's the long form of the character 挂 (Simplified Chinese). On the other hand, 卦, has no simplification in modern Chinese.
圭 as meaning a ruler or gnomon is a disputed one. The more direct meaning of 圭 is that of a "jade tablet" used by Feudal Lords as a symbol of power.
卜 is definitely NOT a pillar with a shadow but it is the direct representation of a crack on a tortoise shell, commonly used by the Shang in divination and its name, bo, is said to represent the sound made by the shell when it cracks. Since divination, in Shang/Zhou was a "royal court" only practice (common people found to be divining were put to death), 卦 can be interpreted more like the "object/symbol of power obtained in divination."

The author of 十翼／易大传（Ten winds/Da Chuan） is Confucius, he started to study Yijing after his 50th. But he said:

假我数年，若是，我于《易》则彬彬矣。
If I have more years, I can understand Yijing better.

Sigh... I may as well dispute the origins of the Bible...

We always said that: one should do something on proper situation and proper time, then one can success. For example: Fish can only lived in water, but not land, because the space(environment) is not suitable for them; When you plant seeds in early Spring, you will harvest in Fall, but if you plant in summer, no matter how good care you take of them, you will get nothing, because the time is wrong.

I certainly agree!

Probably you have known, but I did not found that on this forum: most of the questions came to the forum omitted the time of asking the questions, which is of essential importance. And I did not find clear explain for the description of time on Yijing here.

Not everyone knows how to formulate questions or time results... Specially in the Shredded Readings section where, damsels in distress and knights in shinning armor, take five minutes to learn how to count coins and draw a hexagram but end up even more clueless than before... Then again, not all consultations of the Yijing have to be about Najia, Meihua, or a mix of both, calculations.

Actually, you may know, every Hex has its own symbol of space and time, which can not be changed by any person.

Correct in that symbols, symbols are and that they have more or less a fixed meaning. However, a consultation is never fixed. It is always a combination of the "answer" from the oracle plus the context of the question (spatial, temporal, emotional) posed to it. Therefore, a consultation is subjected to a number of variables that are unique to the querent.

On the view of human, the statement of I Ching can be understood from any aspect, by any one lived in the world, no problem. But, when comes to the space and time, as far as we know, it is still an open question:

How to describe the direction and time by I Ching when comes to the south part of the earth?
The time 10:00 Am 13th,Aug in New J, is equals to the 10:00 Am 13th, Aug, or 12th, Aug?

To think that the Ancient Chinese, even while not knowing there was a "round" Earth, created a system that wasn't universal, is a fallacy. The "reality" upon which the systems were designed was meant to be UNIVERSAL. North/South are conventional concepts tied to our planet Earth and our understanding of magnetic fields and axial spinning and not to the celestial movements. Our measurement of Time is tied to the spin of Earth and its orbital displacement around the sun. Again, another convention that does not cover a minimal part what "time" and our understanding of reality is. In a Macrocosm, the conceived Universe as a whole, where there's no above or below, beginning or end, the measurement of time and its use in prediction is not possible. It is only when we fix our attention to our immediate Microcosm (our planet; our position in it; our solar system and the planet's position in it) that we can establish measuring units and time conventions that can be used to "predict" (actually, it is a calculation) outcomes with some precision. "Present" is always subjective and thus tied to the querent. It is thus "his/her" time of the question, as well as his spatial position, what's important for his/her consultation. There are no differences between living in the North Hemisphere or the South when it comes to the calculation of time.

 

[maverickcc]

I appreciate the many valuable points you've made.

I read where you spoke of modern Chinese teaching of the ancient Chinese language, sorry I can't now sight where it was. I'd be interested in hearing more about how, in present day China, pre-Confucian history, language and philosophy is being imparted to students?

Some here (not myself) are quite knowledgeable of early renditions of accurate translations. As an observer, I'm curious what comparisons can be made between your understandings.

I'm very curious what differences exist between modern Chinese understanding of Yijing and the more ancient, pre-Confucian understanding. In fact, I personally enjoy taking it back further than that, to its core. I can't translate that, only attempt to interpret it. The best I can do is jump up and down pointing at it like a monkey.

Dear Sooo:

Thank you for your interesting.

Actually, the way of teaching in our education system(I mean, official school), is to "force" the students to accept the "answer", no matter whether the "answer" is logically or not(Notice, I do not use right/wrong, but logically or not). I highly appreciate you here, as well as in our forum, which are really interesting and willing to think and study deeper of I Ching.

If you really interesting how one understands I Ching anciently, the most simple way is to put yourself to that time:

We all learnt that the main text of I Ching is written by Wen King(周文王). At that time, we do not have paper or computer. What he used as paper is Turtle Shells. He can not afforded a sharp Swiss Army Knife, instead, what he has are only blunt stones.

Now you can imagine, if you were him, how should you do if you want to write something important? If you want, just prepared materials and try to do it again. I am sure you will have better feelings on that.

Best wishes.

Yours sincerely, Maverickcc

 

[Sparhawk]

There is, by the way, only one copy of the Takashima Ekidan in the entire UK library system, held by the British Library, but now, hopefully on its way to Manchester.

Good luck and Best Regards, Peter

I'll send you some pocket change for the copy machine!!! (heck, I'll buy you a scanner!)

 

[sooo]

Well, Bruce (Sooo) is very old and wrinkly. 40 years are nothing for him.

You flatter me. LOL!

 

[maverickcc]

Well, Bruce (Sooo) is very old and wrinkly. 40 years are nothing for him. I started before your master was born too. I guess I was possessed by the youthful spirit of 王弼 or something (definitely under the legal age of consent... )



The Da Zhuan, or Xi Ci Zhuan are only two, the 5th 繫辭傳上 and 6th 繫辭傳下, out of the ten "wings"...



Simply incorrect and taken on faith. There have been other versions and am not talking about the Lienshan and Guicang... It was only under the Former Han dynasty when the Yijing was "standardized" and even later there were "versions" passed from certain masters, like Jing Fang 京房 for example, to disciples. Then there is the Maguangdui, etc. There's no way to know for certain what the "original" version looked like. To that you compound the text's philological changes over time and ancient meaning for us can be, well, a little muddy...





卦 is correct; 掛 is never used to refer to hexagrams. It means more "to hang, to put up" and only in Chinese slang means something like "shadow". Further, that's the long form of the character 挂 (Simplified Chinese). On the other hand, 卦, has no simplification in modern Chinese.
圭 as meaning a ruler or gnomon is a disputed one. The more direct meaning of 圭 is that of a "jade tablet" used by Feudal Lords as a symbol of power.
卜 is definitely NOT a pillar with a shadow but it is the direct representation of a crack on a tortoise shell, commonly used by the Shang in divination and its name, bo, is said to represent the sound made by the shell when it cracks. Since divination, in Shang/Zhou was a "royal court" only practice (common people found to be divining were put to death), 卦 can be interpreted more like the "object/symbol of power obtained in divination."



Sigh... I may as well dispute the origins of the Bible...



I certainly agree!



Not everyone knows how to formulate questions or time results... Specially in the Shredded Readings section where, damsels in distress and knights in shinning armor, take five minutes to learn how to count coins and draw a hexagram but end up even more clueless than before... Then again, not all consultations of the Yijing have to be about Najia, Meihua, or a mix of both, calculations.



Correct in that symbols, symbols are and that they have more or less a fixed meaning. However, a consultation is never fixed. It is always a combination of the "answer" from the oracle plus the context of the question (spatial, temporal, emotional) posed to it. Therefore, a consultation is subjected to a number of variables that are unique to the querent.



To think that the Ancient Chinese, even while not knowing there was a "round" Earth, created a system that wasn't universal, is a fallacy. The "reality" upon which the systems were designed was meant to be UNIVERSAL. North/South are conventional concepts tied to our planet Earth and our understanding of magnetic fields and axial spinning and not to the celestial movements. Our measurement of Time is tied to the spin of Earth and its orbital displacement around the sun. Again, another convention that does not cover a minimal part what "time" and our understanding of reality is. In a Macrocosm, the conceived Universe as a whole, where there's no above or below, beginning or end, the measurement of time and its use in prediction is not possible. It is only when we fix our attention to our immediate Microcosm (our planet; our position in it; our solar system and the planet's position in it) that we can establish measuring units and time conventions that can be used to "predict" (actually, it is a calculation) outcomes with some precision. "Present" is always subjective and thus tied to the querent. It is thus "his/her" time of the question, as well as his spatial position, what's important for his/her consultation. There are no differences between living in the North Hemisphere or the South when it comes to the calculation of time.

Dear Sparhawk:

Glad to see the picture of Sooo, I can feel full of energy from his eyes. I see he is also a some kind of musical instrument player(Sorry I do not know what is that). Actually, another open question of I Ching is its relation with music. I have no time to talk into details now.

I highly appreciate, Sparhawk, you really understand Chinese professionally. More over, I like that you used the traditional Chinese instead of simplified one.

However, from your reply, it seems we have used different text book:
1 When it comes to 十翼/易傳，it means:
一、彖上傳
二、彖下傳
三、象上傳
四、象下傳
五、繫辭上傳
六、繫辭下傳
七、文言傳
八、序卦傳
九、說卦傳
十、雜卦傳

not simply 繫辭上傳 plus 繫詞下傳

See hereHistory, paragraph 3)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Ching

Chinese Version:
http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh/十翼

2 連山(Lianshan) and 歸藏(Guicang)，if you have read of them, please show me the first and last chapter, and we will pay any price to buy from you.

You are really an expert of history, but from my point of view, for the general introduction and discussion, I try to make it as simple as possible, to establish the picture for the reader.

My first major is physics. When we start to learn, we always start from Newton's laws, which we all know, is not as accuracy as Einstein's theory of relativity. If we start from the theory of relativity, most of us will definitely kill ourselves.

3 For the divination methods used based on Yijing,(Whatever it will be) we can afford the accuracy of around 80%. You might probably be trained that "One divination, One question". And, the simplest way to get the answer, 74 characters of the 64 Hex's name are even enough.

However, as a professional consultant, when you help some to achieve the answer, and what he should do for the future, you should also analyze the detail situation, and the reasons he come to the step. Which you will definitely need to know the time, because it indicate flow direction, of the energy.

My master is a professional Fengshui(风水) Master. What he always told us is: you can make any mistake in explain divination, however, you can not make ANY TINY mistake in doing Fengshui. So we trained to start to learn with as many method as possible, and then we can learn Fengshui.

His first consultant of Fengshui is also based on explain a divination for a company, which has great deficits for years. See below:

2000年未月甲申日
　　　兑宫：泽水困（六合）　　　　　　离宫：天水讼（游魂）
六神 【本　　卦】　　　　　　　　　【变　　卦】
玄武　▄▄ ▄▄　父母丁未土　　X-> 　▄▄▄▄▄　父母壬戌土　　
白虎　▄▄▄▄▄　兄弟丁酉金　　　　　▄▄▄▄▄　兄弟壬申金　　
螣蛇　▄▄▄▄▄　子孙丁亥水　应　　　▄▄▄▄▄　官鬼壬午火　世
勾陈　▄▄ ▄▄　官鬼戊午火　　　　　▄▄ ▄▄　官鬼戊午火　　
朱雀　▄▄▄▄▄　父母戊辰土　　　　　▄▄▄▄▄　父母戊辰土　　
青龙　▄▄ ▄▄　妻财戊寅木　世　　　▄▄ ▄▄　妻财戊寅木　应

The general question is how is the Fengshui of the company. Here, they discussed for 3 hours, and wrote the analyze for 9 A4 pages, front and back. After that, the boss of the company did as what he told, and then turn back to earn 400 million CNY (~60 million USD) next year. During the detail analyze, he used lots of how the time works associate with the question.

Above all, the accurate time, at lest for us, is of essential importance, because from our view, it highly affects the flow of energy. It is your freedom, to view how it works, but, we should try to collect the examples to proof us, and make it as accurate as possible.

That is all, thank you for your contributions.

Best wishes.

Yours sincerely, Maverickcc

 

[maverickcc]

Up to now, I should apologize to ask for the time off for 3 weeks. I really love here, to share ideas and learn from your contributions. However, I should really focus on my exam now. I will come back afterwards.

Thank you for your every comment and help.

Best wishes.

Yours sincerely, Maverickcc

 

[Sparhawk]

However, from your reply, it seems we have used different text book:
1 When it comes to 十翼/易傳，it means:
一、彖上傳
二、彖下傳
三、象上傳
四、象下傳
五、繫辭上傳
六、繫辭下傳
七、文言傳
八、序卦傳
九、說卦傳
十、雜卦傳

not simply 繫辭上傳 plus 繫詞下傳

No, what I said was:

The Da Zhuan, or Xi Ci Zhuan are only two, the 5th 繫辭傳上 and 6th 繫辭傳下, out of the ten "wings"...​

So, we do have the same book...

2 連山(Lianshan) and 歸藏(Guicang)，if you have read of them, please show me the first and last chapter, and we will pay any price to buy from you.

There are indeed fragments of those works but not the whole of them...

3 For the divination methods used based on Yijing,(Whatever it will be) we can afford the accuracy of around 80%. You might probably be trained that "One divination, One question". And, the simplest way to get the answer, 74 characters of the 64 Hex's name are even enough.

However, as a professional consultant, when you help some to achieve the answer, and what he should do for the future, you should also analyze the detail situation, and the reasons he come to the step. Which you will definitely need to know the time, because it indicate flow direction, of the energy.

Your point is well taken, indeed. If you do want to be as accurate as possible, you do need to have some anchoring time attached to the question. What I said is that that is not the prevailing use of most querents and interpreters in "that" section of this forum. But, then again, there are degrees of accuracy requested and lots of mental fogginess. Garbage-in/garbage-out.

My master is a professional Fengshui(风水) Master. What he always told us is: you can make any mistake in explain divination, however, you can not make ANY TINY mistake in doing Fengshui. So we trained to start to learn with as many method as possible, and then we can learn Fengshui.

Well, I hope your goal is not to mix and scramble Fengshui and the Yijing together. There are a whole lot of sites dedicated to Fengshui and there seem to be more "Masters" out there than practitioners. Fengshui feeds on the Yijing and not the other way around.

His first consultant of Fengshui is also based on explain a divination for a company, which has great deficits for years. See below:

2000年未月甲申日
　　　兑宫：泽水困（六合）　　　　　　离宫：天水讼（游魂）
六神 【本　　卦】　　　　　　　　　【变　　卦】
玄武　▄▄ ▄▄　父母丁未土　　X-> 　▄▄▄▄▄　父母壬戌土　　
白虎　▄▄▄▄▄　兄弟丁酉金　　　　　▄▄▄▄▄　兄弟壬申金　　
螣蛇　▄▄▄▄▄　子孙丁亥水　应　　　▄▄▄▄▄　官鬼壬午火　世
勾陈　▄▄ ▄▄　官鬼戊午火　　　　　▄▄ ▄▄　官鬼戊午火　　
朱雀　▄▄▄▄▄　父母戊辰土　　　　　▄▄▄▄▄　父母戊辰土　　
青龙　▄▄ ▄▄　妻财戊寅木　世　　　▄▄ ▄▄　妻财戊寅木　应

The general question is how is the Fengshui of the company. Here, they discussed for 3 hours, and wrote the analyze for 9 A4 pages, front and back. After that, the boss of the company did as what he told, and then turn back to earn 400 million CNY (~60 million USD) next year. During the detail analyze, he used lots of how the time works associate with the question.

I have no doubt that to be true one bit. I know there are good practitioners of Fengshui and I have a very good respect for the field. But one precedes the other and Fengshui, though his real roots can be traced to a few centuries B.C., today it is largely a discipline spawned from the Yijing, just as many others. I could be wrong but I doubt few here have a real interest in discussing Fengshui. I know I don't. I don't like to mix them in discussion.

Above all, the accurate time, at lest for us, is of essential importance, because from our view, it highly affects the flow of energy. It is your freedom, to view how it works, but, we should try to collect the examples to proof us, and make it as accurate as possible.

Agreed. :bows:

 

[erime]

Although it is said that they all missed during the history, they are commonly used in Chinese Fengshui(风水), and I am not allowed to talk about them here, sorry.

Why not?

You said you would like to produce your own sequence, it is really a big challenge, but I should warn you, you will probably waste your time.

No, I am not producing my own sequence, I am finding the pattern in the King Wen Yijing Sequence. You said "it is still not clear, why the sequence should be like that" - do you mean the King Wen Sequence?

Thank you very much for taking the time to speak with me.

Erime

 

[peter2610]

And Lo, for I have seen the Dragon and his countenance was fearsome. And verily did his enemies tremble and cry out, but their sword-arms were as broken straw. And he turned his countenance upon them and gave forth a mighty roar and verily the municipal highways of New Jersey did crumble as unto dust. And from that awesome roar there came a thunderous breath of fire that spake of the Alpha and the Omega and the beginning and end of all things. And his enemies were smitten, and fell as babes. And verily did he devour his enemies (for lunch with a nice cappuccino) and did spit out their entrails and trample them into the bowels of the earth. And the people were as struck dumb and they sayeth - "Behold we have seen the Dragon"

Thanks for your posts, Luis, and for making this thread a lot clearer - you hidden dragon you.

 

[Sparhawk]

And Lo, for I have seen the Dragon and his countenance was fearsome. And verily did his enemies tremble and cry out, but their sword-arms were as broken straw. And he turned his countenance upon them and gave forth a mighty roar and verily the municipal highways of New Jersey did crumble as unto dust. And from that awesome roar there came a thunderous breath of fire that spake of the Alpha and the Omega and the beginning and end of all things. And his enemies were smitten, and fell as babes. And verily did he devour his enemies (for lunch with a nice cappuccino) and did spit out their entrails and trample them into the bowels of the earth. And the people were as struck dumb and they sayeth - "Behold we have seen the Dragon"

Thanks for your posts, Luis, and for making this thread a lot clearer - you hidden dragon you.

Oh, but that's grandpa. He was taking a nap. We have very slow digestions, ya know. I'm just a puppy.

 

[peter2610]

Oh, but that's grandpa. He was taking a nap. We have very slow digestions, ya know. I'm just a puppy.

Well, for goodness' sake don't let 'grandpa' loose on the forum, or we'll all be fried for breakfast!

 

[pocossin]

. . . but there are whole Japanese sites dedicated to it and even family feuds claiming lineage to Takashima, etc.

"His [Takashima's] name was so famous as an I-ching master that many fortunetellers in Japan use his family name Takashima even now. But Kaemon did not gather his deciples as a fortunetellar, therefore many Japanese fortunetellers with the name of Takashima have no relation with Kaemon"
http://www.geocities.co.jp/Technopolis-Mars/1237/mystics.html

 

[heylise]

Hello Maverick,
It might be useful to become familiar with some of the terminology that you might meet on Clarity. I must point out that there are other members on Clarity with far more extensive knowledge of this area than my own and that there isn't a uniform consensus on some of these terms, but, for what it's worth, here are some of the English/Chinese terms that you might come across:

Original Hexagram - Ben Gua
Derived Hexagram/Resultant Hexagram/Second Hexagram - Zhi Gua
Nuclear Hexagram/Mutual Hexagram - Hu Gua
Inverse Hexagram - Qian Gua
Reverse Hexagram - Jiao Gua
Opposite Hexagram/Opposite Polarity Hexagram - Pang Tong Gua/Cuo Gua
Sequential Hexagram/Transitional Hexagram - Zhong Gua

Corresponding line in the derived hexagram - Fan Yao
The interrelated line/equivalent line in the inverted hexagram - Qian Yao
The corresponding line in the opposite polarity hexagram - Cuo Yao

Line text - Yao

If you intend to post on Clarity often, it might be worth getting hold of a copy of the Wilhelm/Baynes edition and/or Legge. Also, I strongly recommend that you check-out Bradford Hatcher and LiSe's translations.

Good luck and Best Regards, Peter

Some of these names are not genuine Chinese names. See this thread. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=10813 They are handy, I use fan yao a lot, nice short easy name. But Marshall is right, who are we to make up Chinese names? Trouble is that the other option, English names, means longer, difficult to remember, names. And it means different names from different people, like "Derived Hexagram/Resultant Hexagram/Second Hexagram (plus relating hexagram)"... doesn't make discussion easy.

 

[heylise]

Great thread this! Most of all how the East and West show themselves, how they are, what their differences are. What Maverick brings here is very interesting. We are almost all Western, so our way of seeing the Yi is taken by most as the only way.

Well, I hope your goal is not to mix and scramble Fengshui and the Yijing together. There are a whole lot of sites dedicated to Fengshui and there seem to be more "Masters" out there than practitioners. Fengshui feeds on the Yijing and not the other way around.

I have no doubt that to be true one bit. I know there are good practitioners of Fengshui and I have a very good respect for the field. But one precedes the other and Fengshui, though his real roots can be traced to a few centuries B.C., today it is largely a discipline spawned from the Yijing, just as many others. I could be wrong but I doubt few here have a real interest in discussing Fengshui. I know I don't. I don't like to mix them in discussion.

End of July there was an YiJing symposium here in Holland. I Tjing as it is called here. I think there were about 70 people, or even more. Beautiful place, an artists village close to Amsterdam. The lectures were in the old church and some other buildings and the big meadows around them. Beautiful hot sunny day.
About 10 very good lectures, one of them by Harmen Mesker. That one was to me a very interesting one!

It seems there is a very ancient divination board, dating from 168 BCE, found in Fuyang. It has the trigrams around the magic square, and also the numbers which are the outcome of counting the yarrow stalks, 6, 7, 8, 9.
There is no proof of anything at all, but it does look as if Feng Shui and the trigrams of YiJing have common origins. Or at least look back on a very long marriage together, since ancient times.

It is not surprising to me, Feng Shui is very much part of Chinese culture, and part of their way of thinking. I think Yi must also be part of this same way of thinking. We here in the West are 'rational', our writing, talking, everything. China is totally different. Not rational but with images and myth and feelings as base. They seek calculable practical, clear outcomes in the Yi, we seek the images and archetypes and inner understanding.

Both are valid ways to see the Yi. I think "universal" means it is all there. Both sides, the East and the West.

 

[Sparhawk]

End of July there was an YiJing symposium here in Holland. I Tjing as it is called here. I think there were about 70 people, or even more. Beautiful place, an artists village close to Amsterdam. The lectures were in the old church and some other buildings and the big meadows around them. Beautiful hot sunny day.
About 10 very good lectures, one of them by Harmen Mesker. That one was to me a very interesting one!

It seems there is a very ancient divination board, dating from 168 BCE, found in Fuyang. It has the trigrams around the magic square, and also the numbers which are the outcome of counting the yarrow stalks, 6, 7, 8, 9.
There is no proof of anything at all, but it does look as if Feng Shui and the trigrams of YiJing have common origins. Or at least look back on a very long marriage together, since ancient times.

It is not surprising to me, Feng Shui is very much part of Chinese culture, and part of their way of thinking. I think Yi must also be part of this same way of thinking. We here in the West are 'rational', our writing, talking, everything. China is totally different. Not rational but with images and myth and feelings as base. They seek calculable practical, clear outcomes in the Yi, we seek the images and archetypes and inner understanding.

Both are valid ways to see the Yi. I think "universal" means it is all there. Both sides, the East and the West.

Hi LiSe,

Well, I hope Harmen has the time to jump in here and add some more to the discussion. I saw the pictures of the Symposium in his FB page, it looked like a great time to be had. I told Harmen that I wanted to steal the beautiful banners hanging in the church...

You are talking about the Liuren Diviner's Board:

The Liuren Diviner’s Board from the Former Han

An early model of a Liuren diviner’s board unearthed in 1977 at Fuyang, Anhui province in a tomb dated 165 B.C. provides us with further evidence of the existence of the shuoxiu system at the beginning of the Han dynasty.45 The round-plate of the instrument has the twenty-eight xiu inscribed on it and, next to some of them, numbers from one to twelve indicating the twelve months. In other words, we have here a list of twelve lodges connected in a specific way to the twelve months. Previous studies have identified this series as representing the twelve solar stations (richan) which, according to the lunar-solar standard of the Chinese calendar, mark the sidereal positions of the sun attached to the twelve months of the year.

The first text that establishes a fixed connection between lodges and months of the year is the Yueling (Monthly Ordinances) compiled in the third century B.C.46 To each month is connected one lodge indicating the relative position of the sun among the stars during that month. As we have indicated earlier, the solar stations play an important role in Chinese astronomy and the calendar. They command the adjustment of the twelve lunar months (12 x 29.5 = 354 days) to the solar year (365.25 days) and provide the celestial mark points for the division of the zodiac into twelve mansions (suici) and of the tropical year into twenty-four solar periods (jieqi) of approximately fifteen days each.

The astrocalendrical treatises in the Huainanzi and the Hanshu also specify the notations for the twelve monthly lodges.47 For the whole period covering the end of the Warring States and the Former Han dynasty, we may add to this group the series mentioned in the Wuxing zhan, a text belonging to the Mawangdui manuscripts unearthed in 1972.48 Now, if all these series, including the one appearing on the round-plate of the Liuren board, are compared to one another, it will be noticed that they are all different, even though the variants bear upon no more than three or four lodges in each list (see below).

It is thus astonishing to find that the twelve monthly lodges inscribed on the Liuren board from Fuyang are identical with the twelve new-moon lodges (shuoxiu) used in such Six Dynasties Liuren treatises as the Huangdi longshou jing. In other words, as early as Han times, this series might have been taken as having a double function, namely, that of solar stations (richan) regulating the course of the sun within the year and that of lunar lodges (yuexiu) commanding the movement of the moon within the month. For example, at the beginning of the first month, while the sun was standing in Shi13 (richan), the daily motion of the moon was supposed to start. On the first day (shuo, new moon, conjunction day), it was assumed that it dwelled also in Shi13 (shuoxiu). Then it moved one lodge a day until the end of the month. The second month, the moon resumed its cycle, taking the solar station of that month (Kui15) as a starting point. And so on, month after month, until the end of the year, exactly as it is described in the Longshou jing section on the calculation of lunar lodges. The existence of such an artificial and idealized system under the Han dynasty is perfectly plausible. In any case, this was exactly the way the system was understood later on since in the Tang dynasty text Xiuyao jing, the link between solar motion and the twenty-eight xiu day-count is clearly established.

Marc Kalinowski
The Use of the Twenty-eight Xiu as a Day-Count in Early China
Chinese Science 13 (1996): 55–81​

That's only part of a 27 page article where Fengshui isn't mentioned once...

I know Harmen has been studying these boards for a while. Now, it is considered that divination boards, Liuren, are a precursor to the Fengshui's Luopan of today. However, to my knowledge, elaborate Liuren have not been found that date to earlier than the very end of the Warring States period. Some firm Fengshui roots can be traced to an even older date, Spring and Autumn, where there appears to be no immediate connection between it and the Zhouyi. That is, they were originally based on different types of "observations." That they could have somehow overlapped during the Hundred Schools of Thought Period and later homogenized during the Han, where Fengshui starts drawing symbology from the corpus of the Yijing, is a distinct possibility. But again, IMHO, I still sustain that current Fengshui feeds from the Yijing and not the other way around. That is to say, we could have endless conversations about the Yijing where Fengshui is never mentioned. If you try to converse about Fengshui, sooner or later, you fall back upon Yijing symbology.

 

[Sparhawk]

Forgot this part...

It is not surprising to me, Feng Shui is very much part of Chinese culture, and part of their way of thinking. I think Yi must also be part of this same way of thinking. We here in the West are 'rational', our writing, talking, everything. China is totally different. Not rational but with images and myth and feelings as base. They seek calculable practical, clear outcomes in the Yi, we seek the images and archetypes and inner understanding.

Both are valid ways to see the Yi. I think "universal" means it is all there. Both sides, the East and the West.

As a very good observation of the state-of-affairs between the two schools of thought, East/West, I don't disagree with this at all. I was simply conveying the message that we can talk about "gardening" and we can also talk about "growing tomatoes"...

 

[peter2610]

But Marshall is right, who are we to make up Chinese names? Trouble is that the other option, English names, means longer, difficult to remember, names. And it means different names from different people, like "Derived Hexagram/Resultant Hexagram/Second Hexagram (plus relating hexagram)"... doesn't make discussion easy.

Entirely agree. It is somewhat presumptuous of us to invent new names, but on the other hand language (any language) has always been subject to evolution, change and transformation in order to adapt to changing conditions. English is one of the most mongrel languages you can find, with Latin, French and German terms all over the place. Many of these were integrated and adapted so long ago that they are now a part of the core language, others were imported directly across from their native origins.

The problem with our I Ching terminology is, as you say, that the equivalent English terms are so clumsy - this was my main point in Luis' thread on Proper Yijing Terminology. If we could all agree on a standard lexicon of short, clear and precise English terms, I for one, would be delighted - but I think this is unlikely to happen. So meantime, the Chinese neologisms are very useful in that they are short, clear and precise. I suppose we could always write to the languages department at Beijing University and ask them for their opinion.

 

[heylise]

You are talking about the Liuren Diviner's Board.

Thanks for everything you told me about it!! I guess in my enthusiasm I jumped to conclusions a bit too fast.

 

[heylise]

And besides - we have the oldest book of China

 

[Sparhawk]

And besides - we have the oldest book of China

Pretty much, if you think about its roots...

 

[paivi]

Hi Luis,

Well, I hope your goal is not to mix and scramble Fengshui and the Yijing together. :

Actually, in Wenwang gua the hexagram can be used to read the fengshui of a place. This is strictly a Yijing method, not fengshui the way we learn it. There are various ways to designate the building parts and outer forms (gates, streets) to yaos, and their state is read by the usual Wenwang gua rules.

Best regards

Päivi

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Paivi,

Glad to see you here. I've no problem discussing Wenwang Gua here. I find objectionable to discuss plain Fengshui here, as understood and spread nowadays by "Masters" of all stripes and lineages. But, it is just my personal peeve. I always have the option of either expressing my thoughts about it or ignore it. I excel at ignoring...

 

[paivi]

Hi Luis,

Just passing by . It's too tedious to follow anything that doesn't drop into my emailbox.

I think that Maverickcc didn't want to discuss fengshui, but offered a Wenwang gua example of a fengshui reading - or fengshui example of a Wenwang gua reading - whatever. I would like to know more about such a reading.

Päivi

 

[maverickcc]

Dear All:

Thank you for your interesting. My education background is mainly science, and I started to understand it just 3 years ago. From then, I found that only understand the basic theories and concepts of Physics, Chemistry, Biology, et.al. is not sufficient, that can only make one become into a concept collector. (P.S. Math is not science, in concept).

However, the academic system of science is more integral, compare to that of the current I Ching World. Moreover, when comes to the NanoTechnology, the edge amount all science subjects become indistinct.

As the explain of academic part is really time consuming, I would like change the plan, by introducing and translating some of the old legends and stories related to I Ching.

Thank you for your attention.

Best

Maverickcc

 

[pocossin]

Welcome back, Maverickcc. Hope your exam went well. If circumstances permit, please tell us more about the Takashima Ekidan. The book is in English but rare, and so far no one has been able to see it.

Didn't Takashima consult the Yi Jing using yarrow? And isn't his approach the standard Confucian approach as given in Wilhelm?