Help with 59 > 29

[malka]

Hello there,

I wrote and posted the below message in the Divination area after reading a wonderful series by Pedro, Heylise, Anita and others on #59. But after further reading I learned that the place to ask for interpretations is limited to the Friends'Area. And so still being new here, I've decided to re-post my message:

*****

I'm reading with tremendous interested all these wonderful and articulate posts about 59! I'm still new to all this, and while the text analysis you are all capable of fascinates me, I am pretty stuck when it comes to applying all this to real life situations! I ask for your guidence and support as I learn, and please accept my apologies that I am not yet competent enough to offer too much back to you in return.

I received 59 with line 6 changing, resulting in 29. My question was about my relationship (that is on hiatus.) I asked, "What would be the effect on our relationship if I sent a letter?" (I had a specific kind of letter in mind, one where I was just utterly open and honest about what I had been thinking and feeling during our recent difficult time. I would say the kind of things I wasn't yet able to express at the time, because I couldn't yet articulate them for myself. Yet it's the kind of things that really needed and needs to be said.)

I welcome any guidence or support you can offer. Thank you.

 

[frandoch]

Hi Malka,

You have much to offer. Your questions are a gift. They make us search for understanding and growth, and they raise issues that we all have to deal with.

We all have difficulty in applying the ?Yi? to practical situations. You are not alone. It?s not just a case of asking a question and reading the answer off the page. We have to absorb the teaching, and allow our intuitive powers to guide us, as to how to act, to produce the best outcome of a situation. But, this best outcome may not always be what we think is best.

The Image of #59 is of a warm wind or a warm spring, which gently dissolves the hard ice. This suggests the correct way to deal with rigidity and harshness in our lives. The warmth is gentle, non aggressive, and accepts the ice. It doesn?t attack it. It gently dissolves it.

Line 6 is about departing from the situation, but this can be looked at in two ways - you could either leave the situation altogether, or you could remain with it, but change the way you look at it, change your perspective.

#29 is also about water - about how it flows around obstacles. It teaches us that the water accepts the obstacles, without judgement, and without feeling they should not be there. And after the water has passed through the difficult terrain, it?s still water - its essence has changed - it hasn?t been damaged.

In answer to your question, I would suggest that you write the letter - but be very careful to remove all traces of anger, resentment, bitterness or blame. Negative thoughts and emotions disconnect you from Spirit. The other party has the right to be whatever they need to be, but you have the right to explain how you feel. But do it with understanding, kindness, humility and care for that person.

Send the letter, but give up any expectation of the outcome. Do what you ?feel? is right and then let it go - let the universe handle the situation from there on. Trust that whatever happens is what should happen - that it?s exactly what you need at this point along your path. Trust that the universe is unfolding exactly as it should - that it?s perfection, even if you judge it to be otherwise.

Be gentle with yourself, and others.

Frandoch.

 

[frandoch]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

, it?s still water - its essence has changed - it hasn?t been damaged.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Malka,

That should read - 'its essence hasn't changed'

My apologies.

Michael F.

 

[malka]

Michael,

Thank you for your gentle and well-written interpretation. What you have to say feels right to me.

The letter I have in mind contains not a drop of blame, bitterness or anger, etc. as I do not feel any of these things towards him. I have felt a little frustration at one point, and mostly a little hurt, that he's just disappeared. But I also do not take it personally and I understand the disappearance in context to what came before: He experienced a very painful break-up that he described to me as "hell." It's my intuition that he isn't trusting his own judgement about women, e.g. what if it all happens again? Actually, he even said this early on, that he "doesn't want it all to happen again."

For all these reasons, I wonder if his attitude and fears might be the ice? What I feel for him, besides a little hurt, is compassion and caring. While he can sometimes be a wise-axx (which I kinda like! with an edge, mostly I experience him as a very intelligent, sensitive and gentle man. The edge I suspect is for protection.

Because my question was worded as, "What would be the effect on our relaitonship if I send the letter?" do I interprete the 59 desciption of a need to eliminate blame, anger, etc, as a RESULT of the letter? Or am I being told that the result of the letter will itself be the gentle wind that melts the ice?

Lines also still confuse me. Do I read all of this in a linear format, or not? I have read various opinions on this and I'm curious about what others beleive. Is it possible that line 6 represents us leaving the old way (as in not currently talking) and moving on to a new way of relating? (as in talking again?) Is it a leaving of the situation as it was, or a leaving of the situation all together? How does one know?

Might 29 point to our moving through difficulties like the water moves around obstacles? Or again, am I to read this as though the letter itself causes the need to move through obstacles? What "feels" right to me is that as a result of my sharing with him from my heart in simple terms, it will lead to a situaiton where we are able to flow. But of course, this is just what I wish for. So how can I trust my own interpretation??

I get mixed up with reading my answers in context to exactly how I worded the question. I try to match the tense of the question to the tense of the answer. It's all still very confusing!

Again, I humbly accept the benefit of your and others' collective wisdom to help guide me through all this.

 

[frandoch]

Hi Malka,

I feel that if your letter is written without negative emotions, then the letter will be the gentle warmth that melts the ice. The worst case scenario is that it will achieve nothing - but it won't do any damage.

As for the lines, I cannot tell you what Line 6 means for you - I can only give you my interpretation, which along with others', you can absorb and allow your intuition to give you your answer.

Re #29, you say what 'feels' right for you. It may not lead to a situation where you can flow together - that may happen - but it will help you flow as a person - you will learn and you will grow.

I find that the best way to get an answer is not to think about it too much. After some time and effort with the thinking mind, let it go. Let your intuition work on it, maybe for days, and listen to your body. Consider each option one at a time and 'feel' what your body is telling you. There will be feeling of comfort or discomfort, often in the area of the solar plexus. There will be your answer. Your body is the interface between Spirit and you. As you practice this, the connection will get stronger.

We often confuse intuition with wishful thinking, but with intuition there is a 'knowing' - we don't have to think about it. If it is wishful thinking, there will always be a nagging doubt in the mind. You'll know.

 

[alexis]

Hi Malka,

My boyfriend and I were going through a separation just like yourself when I received this particular hexagram combo about 7 years ago. I struggled with it just as you are and looked at it from different angles of understanding. To make a long story short, my relationship to this particular person did not ever get back on the original track. Though I adopted the attitude suggested by the I Ching in my attempts to work things out, the underlying circumstances of who we were and what we were after as individual's would prove to be too divergent for a long-term partnership. The relationship required too many compromises and concessions on both our parts for it to ever work out smoothly. Only in time was I able to see the truth that in many ways, as partners go, he did not fit in with the person I was growing into and the lifestyle I was most attracted to. This doesn't mean that your situation is necessarily exactly the same but I thought that I would share my experience and perhaps it would help you to deal with your own situation.

Alexis

 

[malka]

Alexis,

Well, to be honest I'm unsure how sharing your situation in the maner you did, other than being upsetting to me, could possibly help me deal with my own situation?

I am sorry your relationship didn't work out. I'm sure that was painful for you. However, having been through such an experience yourself, perhaps you can relate to how you would have felt if someone wrote you the note you've just sent to me? At a time when I'm feeling vulnerable, and finding it difficult to stay close to my own experience, and asking for guidence and support from a new community of friends...your note just makes me want to cry. I don't find your note supportive or guiding.

Of course, I intellectually realize that your situation is totally different than mine, and that no true connection exists. But on an emotional level...your note hurts. I just can't imagine what possible support, or further understanding of the hexagram's you thought this would offer.

This doesn't mean I only want to hear from people who will tell me what I want to hear -- no. Clearly Frandoch shared line 6 and what may happen, or not happen, etc. But I am looking for help with interpreting what the I Ching is telling me in my situation...I suppose if what you had to share was a more detailed experience of how a particular line showed up in your life, or something that was more specific in terms of what to look for, etc. that might have been different...

Well, I'm going to end this because I'm not being very skillfull in my owrds, and I don't want to blame you for my feelings. I just need to go through what I'm going through, I guess...

 

[cal val]

Hi Malka...

Oh girlfriend, do I ever empathize with you! How many of those letters have I written? Oh geesh...I can't even count that high. And how many times was I sorry for sending them? I can't even count that high either.

I'm old and withered now...I don't have occasion to write so many such letters...*grin*, and I think if only I knew then what I know now.

Before you send that letter, I highly recommend you read John Grey's excellent book, "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus." I learned a long time before I got that book in the mail...quite by accident...that self-help books are pretty much useless when it comes to self-discovery...so I ignored it. For seven years it sat on the highest of my bookshelves unopened. Late one night, one of John Grey's infomercials came on, and he said something very profound...something I'd never realized before...having never been a man before...and it was an instant 'lightbulb' moment for me. From that moment on, I carried "Men Are From Mars..." everywhere with me until I finished reading it. And the tears just streamed, unstoppable, as I learned all the mistakes I had made over the years in my communications with the men I loved...one of the biggest being sending them those letters while they were in their caves.

Your man is in his cave. "Hiatus" is Martian for "I'm going into my cave now." He's working things out for himself...in his own way...which is the right way for him...thinking things out. He wants to be left alone. The best thing for a wife/girlfriend to do in that situation is to say, "Okay honey, I'm going to the movies/shopping/a cruise around the world, and I'll see you when you come out," and then leave him alone.

No doubt everything you've expressed in that letter are valid wants and desires, likes and dislikes...and no doubt they are issues that should be broached...eventually...at the appropriate time...when they come up again in the course of your relationship...but now, while he's on "hiatus", is not the appropriate time. If you're anything like me, it's the fear of losing him that motivates you to send that letter. I can't predict what your letter will do, but mine have only served to fulfill my fear. Actually, they fulfilled more than my fear...they fulfilled an inner need to sabotage the relationship so that I wouldn't have to feel the vulnerability, pain and fear that is inevitable in such a close relationship. But that was just me...then.

When people (men especially...*grin*) fall in love , when they experience that feeling of extreme vulnerability, when they think they might lose themselves to another...yet again, they experience fear...and they often back away. When they perceive no great danger, they come forward again. And they continue to do this until they feel safe in the relationship.

Relationships in their beginning stages seem to be something like two parallel wavy lines. Ideally, they would wave toward each and away from each other simultaneously, but that doesn't usually happen. Over time the waves gradually elongate until they more closely resemble two straight parallel lines. That's usually when talk of marriage or long-term commitment starts.

If I were in the 'back-up' or 'wave out' mode in a relationship, and I received such a letter, I would feel 'pushed,' and I would back up or wave out even further. But that's just me. I can't speak for anyone else. I can't speak for your man.

Now...as to 59. For me, that's always been about dispersing my feelings...not necessarily illusions...but sharing my feelings...dispelling any misunderstandings that get in the way of communication...and that seems to be what you're attempting to do.

As to 29...when I get 29 in such a situation, I hear the Yi say very loudly, "It will create a dangerous situation...don't do it!" And I slam the book shut, go to my outbox and rip the letter up. In my case any more, the outbox is in my email client and I hit the delete button...*grin*

It's great that you were able to sit down with yourself and define your wants and desires and likes and dislikes...to set parameters for yourself. But I really feel it's enough at this point in time for you to know them. If he's disappeared (gone into his cave), I feel it's absolutely not the appropriate time to share them with him.

Something else I was thinking about your situation. If I were in your position, having gotten 29, before sending that letter I would ask the Yi further questions, such as "What is the appropriate action to take at this time in this situation?" And if it doesn't answer, "If your horse really belongs to you, it will come back to you on it's own in seven days," then I'd ask again periodically as to the best action to take.

Another piece of advice I like from a woman who professes to be an expert on love thangs, Pat Collins, is to give that horse seven weeks to come back...be still...be quiet for up to seven weeks. If he's not back by then, he probably won't be coming back. Seven weeks seems so arbitrary to me, and I get a kick out of how it correlates to the Yi's "seven days", but I kind of enjoy making that my criteria for knowing whether to move on or not. She also said something else that is rather a generalization, but an excellent rule of thumb...

Women fall in love on dates...men fall in love between dates.

I'm sure it's little consolation, but he just might be in the process of falling in love right now...*grin*

I really hope this helps Malka.

Sincerely,

Val

 

[ann]

Val, I agree with every word you said. My reaction when I read 'Mars and Venus' was a little different from yours - having been married for 20 odd years I laughed my head off because I'm certain sure that JG had been in my living room listening to our conversations and arguments.

If I'd read that book 20 years ago, I think life might have been a little simpler in our house!

Malka, you may find that Louise Hay's books are helpful. They are available from Hay House publishing, which is something like hayhouse.com

Good luck and I sincerely hope that things work out well for you

Ann

 

[cal val]

Malka...

Personally, I see a potentially positive outcome here. I hear the Yi saying "He's in his cave...he's falling deeper in love...do NOT disturb him now!"

Let's you, Ann and I go for a girl's night out, so you can get your mind off your (very valid) fear. Anyone else game?

Cheers!

Val

 

[malka]

Ann,

I can't beleive it! When your email came through just a few minutes ago, guess what I was doing? I was doing a search for Louise Hay because in the last several days I've developed thyroiditis (an inflammed thyroid that is very painful!) and I know she has written about it.

I'm just curious -- what made you suggest Louise Hay to me?

The thyroiditis came up on Wednesday, which is before I even started thinking about writing the letter. So I can't exactly make the leap that they are so connected... But I do know that the throat chakra is associated with communication. And Louise Hay seems to write about power issues, and head and heart connection issues as housed in the thyroid.

As for John Gray's books --

Val, thank you for the reminder. I have read all of his books. Your note reminds me of the point I keep forgetting! John Gray writes that when men are in their cave is NOT the time to make a connection for purposes of drawing them closer. He suggests that we should only do that when things are going well.

I guess no matter what I write, the truth is I'd send it because I want to be with him. He already knows how I feel. And he's expressed not being sure he's ready. I guess I just need to look at why that's been so difficult for me to accept.

So, what is the I Ching telling me? It sounds like my letter would help melt his ice. But it is that line 6 and 29 that I am not so sure about.

Another point I'd welcome feedback on: I cast this one using Hilary's online oracle. Typically, I haven't put as much stock in the online answers because I feel further away from them, and more connected to my coins that I hold in my own hand. What do others feel?

When I asked "What's the outlook for us in the next month of two?" a couple weeks ago, I received 20 unchanging. I don't think my question was worded very well, but 20 contemplation might be another way to talking about the cave, yes?

Interesting that the women think I shouldn't send the letter, and the one man who wrote back thinks I should!

 

[malka]

Val,

P.S. I like your suggestion to ask "What would be the appropriate action to take at this time in this situation?" I'm going to try this and see what I learn.

Thank you!

 

[heylise]

My experience is that electronic casting gives very appropriate answers, always, and coins sometimes not. Maybe throwing can be manipulated somehow, and electronic is absolutely out of any personal control.
Never thought I would switch to electronic, but after a few tries I was sold.

Can I join the girl's night out? Great!!

LiSe

 

[frandoch]

Hi there ladies, I want an invite to the girlie night out.

I may be a male - but I'm from Venus. Probably one of your slaves - you need lesser persons to keep your bloody planet going - so that you can crow about how you don't need men - but I note that many of you consume vast quantities of Mars (bars)

And from LiSe - switching to electr..no we wont go down that road./

I love you really

Michael F. (Frandoch)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[cal val]

Hey LiSe...

You just got me thinking. How about it? How about a girl's night out in the chat room here...or a Sunday afternoon or something? Where we can talk about girlie things?

No Michael! I'm wearing my special secret 'psychic' x-ray glasses and I can see you're really a manly man...good try though...but you can't come!...*grin* Here's a thought...why not organize a boy's night out?

Cheerio the noo,

Val

 

[cal val]

PS Michael...

FYI, I won't speak for the others, but I won't be crowing about how I don't need a man in my life. I do! And I'm just going to stop there on thatsubject...*grin*

Cheerio the noo,

Val

Yet another PS...I have cat-in-the-lap syndrome at the moment, so I can't be held liable for any typos in this post.

 

[frandoch]

Hi ladies,

I promise you won't know I'm there. I have a pink tutu, and I look very feminine - but you might have to overlook the beard, the walking boots, the cigar and fairy wand - a toilet plunger, but decorated with tinsel.

I will blend in with you dear ladies - trust me.

Michael F.

 

[tashiiij]

frandoch you sound dangerously fetching!

you may not leave alone!

 

[frandoch]

tashiiij

promises promises

Michael F.

 

[alexis]

Dear Malka,

I'm very sorry for upsetting you. It was not my intention to hurt you at all and I certainly didn't expect you to take my sharing of my experience personally. Not at all. Perhaps I should have mentioned that we (my boyfriend and I) have become extremely good friends since then. Maybe that's why I didn't consider how painful this all is for you right now... but I better shut up before I stick my foot in my mouth all over again. I'm so so sorry.

Alexis

 

[malka]

Well, I took Val's advice and asked, "What is the most appropriate action for me to take in my currnet situation with XX? Answer: 49, Revolution with lines 3 and 6 changing to 25, Innocence! Now I'm really confused!

I've read all the translations I have, and the best I can do with it all is that I need to change inside, maintain a sense of equinimity (mentioned in the translaiton of both hexagrams) and be spontaneous. (Which I think also means NOT to send the letter, because that would be something planned and I think the advice is more about not planning...I think.

I will welcome your thoughts on 49 > 25!

P.S. Girls night sounds great!

 

[anita]

Hi Malka, First let me say, that personally I would rather throw the coins than gop electronic, although I have seen a couple ofn times the same hexagrams pop up that way too.

Anyway' first 59 line 6. - The flood at first seems terrible but it sweeps fear away as it recedes. This is a good sign. The Yi asks you to to worry about his disappearance. Cause for sorrow will vanish. And it doesn't mean that like in Ann's case, the relationship will change into something else. Also, as Marshall points out, 6 moving leads (and so does Karcher) to the next hex - and that's 60. One needs to work or act within the limits of one's situation amd one must set these limits. And then you have 29 which says go ahead take the risk. Act. Move. Don't stay still. 'If there is faithfulness in your heart you will be blessed.'

When you do write- and why not if it helps dispels the sorrow, just don't expect him to write back right away - 60. And after that don't keep writing. Let him heal himself in his cave.

And hmmm...the nuclear hexagram in 59 is 27 -- nourish yourself and otehrs, but be careful what comes out of your mouth. Even 29 has 27 as its nuclear!

As to 49- line 3 refers to discussing things with him -- only then you will be believed, and 6 speaks of not using force but still being seen from afar - the leopard's spots acn be seen from afar. That means he senses your love and a great change will take place. But you must be satisfied with that change and not make any further demands when the change takes place. 25 is about that - not asking for or expecting too much, but acting from sincerity and innocence. If the letter is spontaneous, go ahead with it. Isn't it the first thought that comes to mind when you need to communicate and melt the ice? How else do you do that? Again your 49 changes to 50 -- a lovely hexagram. This too speaks of a new ruling regime -- a new time to come.

Meanwhile the nuclear hex in 49 is 44! Coming to meet Mate. And in 50 it's 43 - breakthrough - speak up. Speak frankly.

Marshall suggests that when you get two lines, look at the uppermost as most important. So think of that. You have line 6 in both hexagrams.


Best for your Quest

Anita

 

[ann]

Hi Malka

Sorry it's taken me a while to reply - I've not been near my computer. I suggested Louise Hay because I think she talks a lot of sense. Also, when you are feling all fraught, her tapes are very calming. No other reason really.

Wishing you all the very best

Ann

 

[malka]

Anita, thank you for giving me something to really think about!

I'm open to any further thoughts about 49 > 25 as I work on my interpretation skills! Thanks.

 

[malka]

Ann, thanks for the Louise Hay thought. A friend of mine had my book and has just returned it in the mail. I'm looking forward to taking a good look at it this weekend.

Also on the subject of calming tapes, I'm currently listening to "To Love and Be Loved" by Stephen and Ondrea Levine and it is WONDERFUL! For anyone interested in spiritual growth, grief, and the healing power of relationships, this is very appropriate.

And....if anyone can help with 49>25 I will accept your assistance! Thank you!

 

[pedro]

I dont have more than a glimpse of what your situation might be, and there is not much to add to this thread. But maybe another digression can still be of some help

59's meaning may be that the ego is driving you two appart. What and why, you have to ask yourself (wish I could answer that even for me), but sometimes the egotistic needs disguise themselves as even genrous acts. But dont worry, you two are not alone, the ego is what drives us all appart. We think more often of our needs than theirs, thats nature's way of self preserving, its a natural response. But we have also discernment, we can shift our attention from the "how can I", to the "how can them", or "how can I help them... whatever". And it becomes easy to do this when we realise (realising it is the hard part) that the simple fact of pursuing (egotistically) our goals, apparently nature's intention to make us self sufficient (we wouldnt have it hard-coded if it wasnt), is what prevents, in the first place, both our judgement from being accurate, and our accomplishment of these goals to succeed. Wanting this things so bad can be the most certain way to never accomplish them. It will if it deprives us of our independence, our self sufficiency

Nothing is immutable though, best lesson I learned from the YI. When things are perfect, we know for sure that there is only one way they can go, and that is down (the "superior man" doesnt let this sadden him, though: #55). But from this perspective, it can be even better when things are completely bad, because then we're presented with a certainty: that they can only improve (at the bottom of the pit, the only way is up, trust me), and an opportunity: the chance to make things right this time.

29 six at top is not so favorable, but dont let it upset you. Yi's lines are more advice than definitive omens, you have it always in you the power to change. Dont let the admonishing words put you down, make them an incentive to grow further. As someone (Supa?) so well put it, these are challenges, not definite omens. Everything is open, the yi just tells you where youre headin right now, the moment you ask (ask again and it may have changed). Its like a compass, showing you the trend, and how to change it if you will. Its not pointing an inevitable fate.

The overall meaning of 29 sugests recurrent danger, getting used to dangerous situations. Maybe there are issues that any of you sistematically avoids facing, or troubles that keep coming back, and should be dealt with. Or perhaps some weakenesses that are not overcome, dependencies of any kind. But it neednt be bad, 29 shows also the way to overcome the dangers, just be like water... Although 29 speaks of dangers and abysses, its judgement is one of the most beautiful: "If you're sincere, you have success in your heart, and whatever you do succeeds". We only need to fear danger when we have guilt. One who is sincere will have no guilt, no remorse, and danger wont harm him

Bottom line, I would say the Yi is telling you that a lot is involved right now. Either your mind is too unsettled, or the situation has some hidden tensions that make it difficult, but by no means intransponible. You have it all in you to succeed, just dont try so hard. Let yourself be, really BE, and it will all work well

There is only one way to look the creator in the eye. What we deserve comes to us (so lets deserve it!!), let nothing convince you otherwise. What we're inocent, pure, enough to receive, shall be given to us.

 

[pedro]

49->25: Shedding the old skin, becoming natural, innocent, like a child. Let your old self go, dont tread the same old paths, dont be afraid to rock the boat, strip yourself of everything but your precious essence. Drop everything and just leave your connection to the divine. Look at yourself without any clothes, without any body, any mind, any skins, just the bare soul. What is it you see?

 

[malka]

Pedro, thank you very kindly for your thoughts. Unfortunately, for an intelligent woman I'm still feeling stuck as to what to do next...I'm going to give myself this week to continue to meditate and see what arises from my heart...

 

[bradford_h]

Dear Malka
I'd have to say that there aren't many lines in the whole Yijing that are more clear about advising emotional detachment, getting distance, and Not asking what your emotions are saying. That doesn't mean being cold, only being more expanded, more open, more "dispersed".
B

 

[malka]

Bradford, I want to understand what you're saying, and I'm a little lost. Which line are you referring to? Could you please say more about your interpretation as I'm still learning and not too quick. Thank you!