Help with Hex 64

[bostonian]

Hi all

I’m having trouble understanding hexagram 64, Before Completion, because I can read it in two totally different ways: one positive, one negative.

Positive interpretation: You’re almost at the point of success. Just do a few more things right, and you’ll be there. One I Ching website interprets the title of this hexagram as “The End In Sight,” which seems to support this positive interpretation.

Negative interpretation: You have not finished your work even though you may think you have. You are working on, at best, an incomplete.

I realize the two interpretations are somewhat similar. But the positive interpretation has the implication of “almost there” or "just one or two more things to do" while the negative one does not. The negative one simply says you're not finsihed without any reference to how close you are to the end.

Any thoughts on this?

thanks

 

[meng]

 

[rodaki]

ahem . . hi bostonian

I have a very limited view on 64 but . .
'positive' and 'negative' according to what?



(excuse me I just woke up on the wrong side . . or was that the good side?)


:bows:

 

[bostonian]

I have a very limited view on 64 but . .
'positive' and 'negative' according to what?

I didn't mean to open up a can of worms with those terms. We can just call them interpretation 1 and interpretation 2 if you like

 

[rodaki]

hi again

. . maybe you are interested in getting an answer in terms of completion?
I see 64 as 'work in progress' -but as I said I have a limited view of it

those two versions didn't seem very different . .

 

[Sparhawk]

 

[fkegan]

Hi Bostonian,

Your two interpretations are the same. Yes, the end is in sight, but that doesn't at all mean the next step is safe or secure. Focusing solely upon the near goal and not the next step; like daydreaming about your market profits while still on the road is certain disaster. A final result of: I blew it totally, but I was just a few steps away at the time is not really a positive. Consider German general in sight of the Kremlin towers when the winter snow started to fall. Just another few miles, but no means to cope with the snowstorm or Soviet defense of their capital and supply lines overextended in the mad rush!

Better be extra careful in those next steps yet to take is not negative. And thinking it is negative is the worst of magical thinking. The Yi Oracle told me I was almost completely successful so I don't have to consider what I do now, just close my eyes and let a positive fate sweep me over the finish line as a conquering hero in my daydreams.

Hex 64 is a totally positive, hopeful hexagram about the possibilities of new initiatives. Making those opportunities successful is not the Yi Oracle's problem, its the requirement of each little fox to learn to test the ice of the next step well and not just run blindly along thinking 90% is good enough already and the other 10% is a given.

Good Luck,
Frank

 

[titania]

I think your question gets to an essential aspect of 64: success is within reach, but so is failure.

Maybe if the hare had thrown this hexagram before his legendary race with the tortoise, things would have turned out differently. He would have remembered that even when victory seems assured you have be careful not to screw it up. Sleep AFTER you've crossed the finish line, not before.

 

[bostonian]

Thank you. But let me make sure I understand this.

From a guidance perspective, telling me "Don't blow it or you'll fail" is pretty generic advice and not very helpful. I don't need an oracle to tell me if i fail, I'll fail. It's a trueism. So the I Ching must be telling me something beyond that.

From a fortune-telling perspective, the i Ching is saying, "You're very close to either success or failure. In other words, the situation at hand won't drag on for very long. The end is in sight.

Is that right?

 

[maremaria]

I have associate 64 with Yogi Berra saying " It aint't over till is over". Everything is still open. Of course with the later discussion about 63 , which 64-th my 63 view , i have some second thoughts. From my little experience of 64, i believe that its a reminder saying that more is about to come. Like before you make a desicion you look at the fact. In such case, if i got 64, i might have miss something. 64 tell me to keep my mind open . Its not time for conclusion, its time to gather and evaluate information.

maria

 

[meng]

Just as I would argue that 63 is a process of completing, not always the finished result, I hold that 64 may represent something that is simply not completable, rather than merely unfinished in its current state.

 

[maremaria]

love it !!!

( we need a thread with cartoons, btw. )

 

[fkegan]

Some interpretations of hexagram meaning are just plain WRONG...

Just as I would argue that 63 is a process of completing, not always the finished result, I hold that 64 may represent something that is simply not completable, rather than merely unfinished in its current state.

Hi Meng,

Let's try not to forget how these final two hexagrams come by their meaning. Each of them is made up of 3 Yin and 3 Yang lines alternating. Hex 63 has Yang lines in the odd numbered line places and therefore Yin lines in the even ones. This is the obvious symbolism of a place for everything and everything in its place. That is why in Wilhelm it is called AFTER Completion, not completing; but After all the details are complete and how that final completed, perfection which must continue to change changes in imperfect ways. This is the hexagram of having things fall apart after your final execution of your plan is complete just the way you wanted it but life still goes on.

Similarly, hex 64 is nothing at all about unable to Complete. It is all about having Yang lines in the even numbered stages and Yin lines in the odd numbered line places. That is all---the rest is commentary. So, if the lines are not completely and perfectly aligned than things are still open to further development within the current plan. This is the hexagram of doing things since not everything has yet been done perfectly and you can still hope to make your intentions into reality.

Your cartoon is a hex 63 cartoon. The two fellows think they have completed their transfer from their shipwreck to the little island and everything is stably settled, but it isn't. They have completed what they expect, but their expectations are about to be a cause of their suffering since they are not based upon objective reality.

Frank

 

[maremaria]

Your cartoon is a hex 63 cartoon. The two fellows think they have completed their transfer from their shipwreck to the little island and everything is stably settled, but it isn't. They have completed what they expect, but their expectations are about to be a cause of their suffering since they are not based upon objective reality.

Frank

But there is something under the water that says it ain't over yet, yes?

p.s
I bet , that if those people toos the coins they'ld get 64

 

[bostonian]

Similarly, hex 64 is nothing at all about unable to Complete. It is all about having Yang lines in the even numbered stages and Yin lines in the odd numbered line places. That is all---the rest is commentary. So, if the lines are not completely and perfectly aligned than things are still open to further development within the current plan. This is the hexagram of doing things since not everything has yet been done perfectly and you can still hope to make your intentions into reality.

OK, so just to be clear, this hexagram is not predicting that one is nearing completion -- that one way or the other things are coming to a head, right? It is just saying that things are not complete with no reference to whether one is near or far from achieving his goal.

If that's the case, i have a problem with it which I'll try to explain with an example. Suppose someone has as his goal to find a loving relationship. He's doing the work needed to achieve this goal: he's put ads in personal columns and websites, he goes to dances, and goes on dates. But so far, no chemistry with anyone. So he asks the oracle to tell him something about his quest and he gets hex. 64. If that hex simply means you have to do more work before you achieve your goal, that's useless to him because since he hasn't found someone to love, by definition he has to do more work. On the other hand, if it's saying that you have some more work to do, but you're getting closer, that is meaningful because it tells him something he didn't know: that the goal is within sight.

 

[fkegan]

But there is something under the water that says it ain't over yet, yes?

p.s
I bet , that if those people toss the coins they'd get 64

Hi Maria,

What does the big fish with bigger fangs say? I don't think he is saying anything. Nor will he say anything until the two boys light a campfire that annoys the big fish. Their ship wreck rescue is completed, they are sitting thinking they are After Completion, just needing to live upon their island in their own perfect world. After Completion, in the Beginning Good Fortune, in the end disorder.

If they were to toss the coins, I would not expect an inappropriate answer like hex 64 which would make no sense to them as they are not in the midst of a new initiative. I would expect another hexagram counseling them to be very calm and still and not to light a campfire of their palm or to go swimming as that might be tempting to the fish like wiggling a lure.

Hi Bostonian,
Isn't that always what folks complain about in shared readings, which is what you are actually raising here. You are looking for true love and want the Yi to give you an oracle that she (or he) is on their way and will be knocking on your door soon.
But the Yi doesn't--what a surprise! It says hex 64 without moving lines, unless you have another layer of your onion waiting in your pocket.

So, in the circumstance of expecting to get a loving relationship, not by living your life and meeting folks of similar interests and working hard to make those interactions meaningful and let them develop in a natural way; but rather to set out standard fish lures and traps and hoping the Yi Oracle will say your magic is strong and Princess is almost in the bag.

The Oracle says, hex 64, that is hey little fox you are crossing a not-so-frozen lake without having the experience or the sense to really get across and when, as is clearly stated in the Wilhelm Judgment you make a mess of things and fall through the ice; you will get your tail all wet and there is nothing that will further.

In a positive sense, this is a hexagram of hopeful initiatives and your search for love is still ongoing and capable to improvement. As a magical fortune, you are being told you are going about everything all wrong and you need to do better, either now or after you make a humiliated fool of yourself.

That clearer for you?

Regards,

Frank

 

[meng]

OK, so just to be clear, this hexagram is not predicting that one is nearing completion -- that one way or the other things are coming to a head, right? It is just saying that things are not complete with no reference to whether one is near or far from achieving his goal.

It could very well mean that your goal has not been reached yet, especially if the context of your question/interest had a particular goal in mind. A couple of examples might be:

I am completing a course. 63
Learning is ongoing. 64

What's my goal? 63
What's my purpose? 64

Not saying those are firm (63) answers, just examples (64).

I'm not denying the conventional understanding of 63 or 64, I've just found its meaning to extend beyond my previously understood limitation. I feel pretty sure of myself on this one, but I'm willing to maintain a 64 mind about it.

 

[meng]

My examples weren't very good, but I hope at least they get the point across.

If I got 64 about finding my 'main squeeze', I'd be encouraged. But, it would also make me wonder if a main squeeze is something I could never attain once and for all.

If I received 63 for that same question, I'd be less encouraged, thinking this may be as good as it's going to get. But, it would also make me take a look at the love right in front of me.

 

[meng]

63 - shut (no tense needed)
64 - open

 

[bostonian]

Hi Frank

First of all, just for the record, I didn't get hex 64, nor am I looking for a relationship. I'm just trying to understand the hexagram.

I frankly don't understand your response. Doesn't the oracle make predictions? You seem to be calling that disparagingly magical thinking. But things do happen without any effort sometimes. One finds love in an unexpected place. One is offered a job when he least expects it. One receives an inheritance from someone he barely met.One is disabled in a crash. Won't the I Ching predict these things? Also, some events are out of one's control, and so people, while doing ll they can to help themselves, have to hope for a miracle. Can they ask the i Ching if the problem will be cleared up.

So to get back to hex 64, apparently you're saying that hexagram is not saying the end is in sight. But if you believe the i Ching does make predictions, why wouldn't it say that if that is what will happen?

 

[rodaki]

you can get predictions with the Yi but NOT ALWAYS -sometimes not even when you most need such assistance to make important decisions

going back in the archives here you will find that Yi has described itself twice in terms of 20.4 . . it can be an honored guest you invite in your abode to understand better the realm that lies around you but is NOT TO BE USED AS A TOOL -iow with only that use of it in sight . .

the way I see it, 64 has nothing to do with ending, completing, closure etc. Not that what you ask can not be completed, but thinking abt completion when you get 64 is like looking at your hexagram upside down (). .

if one asks Yi what they need to know about the road up ahead and they get 64, then I think the Yi has answered them that 'the road starts at your feet'
If you still want to see it in terms of predictions, then, let's say it's showing you the horizon

:bows:

 

[meng]

if one asks Yi what they need to know about the road up ahead and they get 64, then I think the Yi has answered them that 'the road starts at your feet'

love it

The fruits of art have to be ‘not yet’, the abundance of summer, before the harvest. ~ LiSe, gua 64

 

[meng]

Bostonian, you do ask the best questions.

Ever notice how some questions can be answered in a final way, while others never are? Or, it may satisfy for a time, but later you find yourself asking the same question? It's like the return of hunger, even after you've completed a full meal.

It's not whether something is 63 or 64, but rather specifically which contextual field are you applying it to? Both can apply to the same question, depending on where and how it's used. That's why I'm skeptical of black or white answers and approaches. Sure, the simplest and most obvious likely applies, but is there more information there that might be helpful?

63 and 64 can even represent two entirely different ways of thinking, living and being.

 

[maremaria]

It's like the return of hunger, even after you've completed a full meal.

.

lol, also a 63-64 sequence.

 

[maremaria]

63 and 64 is like walking. I have associate them with the image of someone walking. Left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot.

Some of the Johnnie Walkers ads, imo, are very apt.

http://www2.johnniewalker.com/home.htm#root/tv/stridingman

http://www2.johnniewalker.com/home.htm#root/carlyle

 

[maremaria]

Some days ago, a friend told me the words you can see under the picture. The image you see, is the first thing came in my mind. I put the title "firmly floating". I believe it fits in this discussion, thats why I post it.

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp60/horseandmoon/lepetitprience-1-1.jpg

 

[rodaki]

Maria, I love that! sometimes words carry their own little magic wand
and the Picasso cartoon too . . actually, it might just have answered a question I always have about our need to preserve art . .

I was thinking -even when the 63 discussion was going on- abt the nuclears of 63 and 64 . .
it seemed to me like there is a hidden, often nagging voice lying there
In 63 it keeps repeating 'now what?'
64 similarly seems to be carrying along an everlasting 'are we there yet?'

 

[meng]

actually, it might just have answered a question I always have about our need to preserve art . .

There's a bit of 26 in that statement and cartoon as well. Giving actually to hidden potential.

 

[maremaria]

64 similarly seems to be carrying along an everlasting 'are we there yet?'

- Is it much further Papa Smurf?
- Not much further my little smurfs.

The wisdom of Papa Smurf ​

 

[maremaria]

and the Picasso cartoon too . . actually, it might just have answered a question I always have about our need to preserve art . .

'

I know what do you mean. Art, literature and history , when I first introduced in my childhood, was something that had not life or at least it was presented like that. My teachers made me distaste them. I couldn’t find a meaning of study them. Till I saw the life in them. If the Well’s meaning is something vague to grasp it, art, in a way, makes it visible, imo.

A pool of teachers, the one that tease your mind to find your answers. Agree with Meng about 26.