Hex 29 and my back !

[louise]

Could anyone shed a bit more light on the answer I received for asking Yi why my back is continually 'going'. That is, its always been a problem area for me but over the past few months, as soon as I feel recovered and resume normal physical activity it gets very painful again and I have to spend lots of time lying down. I asked "why is my back like this?" and got 29, line 1 moving. It seems purely descriptive to me ? Yes i keep 'falling into the pit', though it hardly seems 'dangerous' just an impediment to living a normal life at this time. Any insights anyone ? I don't know why it happens, I'm quite robust apart from that.

 

[cheiron]

Hi Louise

Instant response: I would not go to a doctor to ask about the Yi... Similarly the Yi may not be the best place to ask about your back...

I know there a folk here who can see more deeply into the Yi than I and they may well have an insight into your Q.

Worth a thought though?

All the best

--Kevin

 

[cheiron]

Oh, it?s late here and perhaps that was a little hasty...

I am a long term back sufferer too... sympathy!

My initial impression is the Yijing is saying 'live with it for now' Flow out over the pits and fill them not fearing the dangers until they are swamped with your energy / being.

eg

Do not react to it - just be you.

Do not become crushed by it and do not loose your 'good nature' (pain can be very distorting to how we feel, the way we see things and behave).

Line one to me says? Repetition' There will be more - just now.

I would do two things here:

Ask again

and

See a practitioner skilled with backs.

For the record... I was told I would loose the use of my legs it got so bad... I could not walk at all the pain was so bad... but I found someone who fixed it when the best meds said 'no chance'.

Wishing you well

--Kevin

 

[louise]

Hi Kevin, yes i see your point, but i tend not to see the bad back in isolation from the rest of me as a doctor would. So when asking Yi about this I
am asking in a multi levelled way (make sense ? no!) By the way, have seen Dr - they have no answers. So I'm asking I'm a fit healthy person, why won't my back keep me upright.

 

[louise]

Hi again Kevin, just read your 2nd post - thankyou, its good. Yes I need to ask again about what to do - if anything. I think you're right I also need to accept it - as me. Having a bad back always makes me feel utterly exhausted with life - sounds like yours was much worse than mine though.

 

[hilary]

Karcher's comment on that line reads 'by responding in the same way again and again, you get caught in a dead end'. Since this is a hexagram about repeated mishaps, maybe the message is that you have destructive habits in the way you use your back? (And is lying down the best thing to do?)

Hm - Kevin is spot on about asking a professional, though. A Yi-ish person can see, for instance, that #60 could refer to the spine (those bamboo joints - very vertebral), but that doesn't get you much further, does it? The trick would be finding a chiropractor, osteopath or whatever who wasn't going to drop you in the pit within the pit within the pit...

 

[louise]

Thanks Hilary, that makes sense, doesn't look like its going to go away on its own does it.

Lying down is the only thing i can do sometimes, carrying on moving makes it worse. After much rest it gets better for a while - only to get worse again when normal pace of life is resumed.

Torn between Kevins idea of acceptance and your suggestion of getting out of dead end cycle - taking more positive and expensive action. I think I have been hoping it would just go by itself but the Yi is saying its going to carry on over and over like it has been - so I better consult on best course of action I guess.

 

[pedro]

I agree with Hilary and the bamboo segments being a perfect analogie for the spine.
As far as I can tell, most of those back pains come from bad posture (remeber to sit straight, almost on the edge of the chair so your pelvis tilts back, straightening the lower back), which then cause curves that compress vertebra and cause pain through the numerous nerves in the region.
Weak abdominal muscles also cause back pain for you cant keep back straight and compensate the lack of abdominal strength by drawing the weight out the back
In any case, I dont think you can solve it without correct exercise and/or massage or other terapeuthical practices.
The best thing for the back is yoga. Stretching the back compensates for the pressure between vertebrae that causes the pain, and makes your spine flexible and suple (after all, the spine is where our youth is). After a couple of weeks of diligent practice you will notice a substancial change and will start wondering how you could put up with all that disconfort for so long
If you cant or wont do yoga, simple stretching exercises, like taking head to knees (you need proper guidance to do this right), lying on your back with hands behind head, elbows on floor, then twisting closed folded legs to either side, etc, can be very relieving. Do-in is also an option, and may be less demanding than yoga

Oh, that will be $75 please

 

[candid]

Louise, I can share two things concerning your back: sympathy and personal experience.

I've suffered upper cervical pain since my early 20s and it was cyclically debilitating. I became a Chiropractic addict and took a strong barbiturate drug because the doctors didn't know what else to do for me. It was maddening... and depressing. It seemed so unfair that an otherwise fit man should have to suffer from something like this. (Can you hear the subjective tone in that? Shades of 29?) 5 years ago after studying a new MRI scan, my Neurologist said his only recourse would be to fuse numbers 4 and 5 vertebrae. I never called him back and he never renewed the pain medication prescription.

Two years ago I decided to try something different. Rather than babying the infirmity, I went out and bought a light set of weights, just 60 pounds. I began a manageable and religiously faithful workout routine with them. Nothing severe, but I definitely pushed my comfort envelope beyond anything it was used to. Gradually, the muscles in my upper body began to develop, creating a stronger support structure for my big, fat head. In addition, my will became stronger from exercising my determination to "power through" the pain.

Today, I still continue these scheduled light workouts with the same set of weights. The pain in my life has become 10 to 20% of what it once was, depending on things like weather and stress. If I slack off, the pain returns, so I continue to hit those weights. Again, nothing extreme, just regular.

A side benefit is, I look hot! heh heh.. No but really, its helped my appearance by toning up, and this has improved my posture, which in turn improves the structure of my upper spine.

I'm certainly not suggesting that you run out and buy a set of weights. But, as has been suggested here by others, being proactive toward improvement through such things as yoga, light exercise, diet, posture etc, is probably your best solution to this debilitating pain. There are other subtle things which also helps. For example, become aware of the words you use to describe it. Do you call it, "my back problem? or ?my pain?" If so, you are laying a claim to it. Its not yours so long as you don't claim it.

I?m not big on doctors, personally.

Wishing you strength and recovery.
Candid

 

[heylise]

For hex.60 line 1 I have in my website: give your actions your own size and do not exceed that. Do not answer to demands or accept values, words, situations or people which do not agree with your own nature.

It could be simply that you have a habit of asking too much of your back, without realizing it. Here in this house one person got 6 weeks flat on her back with an Ischias because she did just that. She was lucky, it turned out not to be a hernia, but a lump in a muscle just below the waist.
She says herself ?it is the best thing which could happen to me. I have always done things because they had to be done. Or because I thought they had to be done. Just in time they are teaching me there is more in life than doing one?s duty?.
Her answer of the Yi to her back was hex.59: relax, dissolve structures in your mind, and as a result in your back too. But that was when she was already slowing down. Now she decided never to lift up again anything even a bit heavy, not to run around anymore, to be lazy when she feels like that, and to recognize the first signs of enthusiasm induced by her rational mind instead of her feelings. Because that was her weak point: jumping up at every challenge.

I think 29 says there is real danger, don?t make it worse than it already is. And hex.60 tells you to give your life your own rhythm (the bamboo segments are used as measures of capacity, musical notes, time intervals, everything which needs a basic unit so it will not run wild).

LiSe

 

[candid]

LiSe, we seem to have polarized perspectives lately

. Likely the answers are somewhere between our opposite views. Perhaps alchemy including both? To let go of preconceived ideas of how one ought to be, and to strengthen that which has the potential to be?

~Fellow mad scientist~

 

[louise]

Well thankyou all for the time and attention. Any exersize programme i take up is going to be very gentle, like some yoga stretches. I love your post Lise, because I do think our minds and bodies are intimately linked. Interesting you mentioned about your friend slowing down, cos a few weeks ago I had to pack up my house to move and i was worried about being able to do it in time because of the back pain. I literally heard a voice in my head saying 'slow down' so I did everything at a snails pace and managed to get it done in time.
Pedro will you accept a credit card payment in very small installments

 

[pedro]

Louise, hearing that your back is becoming better would be payment enough

And please take the time to start that gentle yoga practice, you wont regret it!!!
You should go to a proper class till you learned the basic moves, though, cause it can be worse than not doing anything should you perform the exercises wrong!!
Anyway, you should be safe if you dont force yourself the slightest bit (yoga isnt hurtful, you just go as far as you can without pain, maintaning proper allignement, and day after day you see the progresses)
In your case just half a dozen exercises would be enough, so if you focus on those you'll learn them fast enough and can start doing it at home
Let me know if you need more yoga advice

 

[heylise]

Hi Candid,
I guess Pedro's advice is the golden middle road between your 30 pounds and my laziness.

One thing about yoga (and any movement): make sure you feel nice warm before you do any stretching. I did yoga for several years, and it helped me to get rid of a stiff neck with chronic headaches. But one time I did my same old thing with a cold back, and wham! three years pain.
Now I just dance around every once in a while to make everything loose again after too much computer.

Wish you a good strong supple back without any pain, Louise!

LiSe

 

[cheiron]

Hi again Louise

Yes! I found doctors particularly poor on backs. Osteopaths and Chiropractors seem better. I cannot imagine what might be wrong with your back.

So many different things can go wrong with them!

I found someone through word of mouth... maybe worth one visit to get a diagnosis and advice on how to manage it?

I know what you mean about wanting to see the problem as part of a whole picture... my own balance is to let the techies give their opinion and then explore the bigger picture.

That might not be the right way, but it seems to work for me.

Do let me know how you get on.

Warmest wishes

--Kevin

 

[louise]

Hi everyone, I just asked Yi the question, how should I approach remedy/healing for my back - a bit vague, i was just trying to get a feeling for the way to go about it. I got 62 lines 1 and 6 !
Oh no - am i a bird flying too high, exceeding my proper course ? Thats hard to understand - unless its referring to a few weeks back, where I did carry some heavy boxes (yes that was very stupid)because i suppose I thought I had to, there was no one else around to do it for me at the time. Should have asked for help, stupid little bird ! Although i asked Yi about the way forward with the back, my gut feeling is saying this 62 answer is about the past - but I'm not sure. Although i already had a dodgy back at the time I was getting a bit impatient with it, wanted to get on and get those boxes packed and shifted myself without waiting for other people's availability. Of course if 62, lines 1 and 6 refer to my approach in the future then um I don't know what to think.
Pedro I like yoga and have done it in the past and must begin again soon. Once though i strained my back doing the pose where you bend right down to the floor from your hips, probably I pushed it too much, need to be more aware of my
body's limits.
Kevin on a psychological level the back pain seems to resonate with a feeling of "I can't hold this up, can't keep going, can't support my own self anymore". Hmm well I don't know about bird flying too high, I ain't flying anywhere for a while.

 

[heylise]

Exactly what I did with my back! Only I was sitting and putting my nose on my knees.
It is still a weak point, but with light moving, not too long sitting down and in the first place always a good support when I sit, I manage fine now.
Try a rolled-up towel (not too thick) when you lie down, and find out where to put it to release your back.
LiSe

 

[heylise]

With several 'backs' here, we made quite a study of herbs, vitamins and other stuff. We found a few things which help very good. If you want a little list, mail me.
LiSe

 

[bfireman]

Louise-

Have you ever heard of Feldenkrais(I think that is how you spell it..) It is not yoga or stretching, but various exercises designed to literally re-program your neuro-muscular system. It consists of very very slow and minimal movements. Sometimes, you do a movement with one side of your body, then, just thinking of the same movement on the other side, well... you just have to try it to believe it. You can buy tapes and do them at home, yet there are trained feldenkrais practioners who can help you learn various movements. In the past it has helped me a lot with back pain. Another thing that I find really good is just called "shaking the bones", yet I would start this when you feel comfortable standing. Only really need to do it a minute or two, yet with all exercise I think it is the quality, not quantity that is most beneficial. Like Candid said, if you slack off a bit, your body will surely know and thus let "you" know. Anyway, simply stand up, relax, and mentally image your spine suspended by a string above the crown of your head and the entire skeletal system hanging loosely beneath. Then, very slowly, start shaking a bit. I always start the shaking movement at my center(although it is fun to start other places and experiment), below my belly button and in a bit. Then, I mentally image each vertebrae one by one and imagine much space and looseness between them. Go through each vertebrae, each joint of body, arm, leg, feet, etc. Most important is to breathe in very relaxed way and have intention to gently release all tension. Many times, the more you do this, simply the intention to release tension is enough to provide much release and relief. Sounds silly, but shaking and wiggling around a bit is really very good for you! On a personal level, I have found that much of the pain experienced in body is directly proportional to mental tension. Simple things like shaking and relaxed breathing can do amazing things to help release this tension. And finally, the more you can cultivate the thoughts that you have the power and capacity to heal yourself, you will... like the little engine that could, "I think I can, I think I can!" I hope you get better - Brian

 

[louise]

Hi Brian, no I've never heard of Feldenkrais, I'll check it out. I love the idea of the 'shaking the bones' excersize, it actually sounds like fun, thankyou !

Like you I think there has to be a correlation between mental state and physical. I saw a reiki practioner today and that does help. She said she thought I probably had the power to heal myself with this. So I'm gonna go deep within, converse with my back and definately shake my bones !

 

[pedro]

Hey, sorry for just replying now.

Regarding yours and LiSe's problem with overstretching, yes, thats a dangerous problem if one doesnt warm up (thats what the sun salutations are for). But one must remember some points.

First, when doing forward bends people tend to round the back. This is wrong (I only found out recently, I admit), you should keep the back straight, first folding belly to thighs, then chest to knees, etc. This way is much harder, but its the correct way, cause you dont over strain your lower back, where these problems occur (its easy to over stretch that zone).

Also one must remember to stop when (and precisely because) its feeling good, cause thats when one overstretches.

Also remember that when stretching any muscle, one must focus on stretching the middle of the muscle, and gradually work through to the extremes where the tendons and ligaments are. Most people do the exact reverse, thus overworking the fragile ligaments and not working the muscle enough

Another pointer is to contract the thighs, pulling the knee caps. This is very important cause it contracts opposite muscles and ensures you dont over do it (theres a name for this type of stretch that I cant remember now, isometric?)

Anyway, yoga isnt simple (thats why you need a good teacher), but if done well, it can be very effective in getting rid of back pains

Also Re: Brian and Feldenkrais, you got me curious, must check around. Incidentally, has any one heard about Kum Nye? its a very cool method developed by Tartang Tulku, and it is a sort of yoga movements (not really similar, tho) but where movements are done at an incredibly slow pace, I mean SLOW!!! its amazing the effect that has both physically and mentally. Just try walking AS SLOW AS YOU CAN (I mean taking half a minute just to take your foot off the floor), for a taste of it

Tai Chi is also a good way to get in shape, without any risk. Its dynamic stretches also develop muscle and flexibility, and you get your mind tuned as well. Most difficult part is remembering the form

Speaking of dynamic stretches, I sometimes do some of this to relief back pain. It works for me, but there's also the risk of overdoing it cause it feels so good, so maybe this isnt appropriate for you. Anyway, here's one method. Stand close to a waist level table, feet confortably appart, hands on table top also confortably appart. Now, if you lean your weight over your hands, you'll realise you can work your back msucles and abdominal ones (two birds in one stone). By moving around, varying the angle of leaning, working with foot placement, etc, you can stretch and work on each and every upper body muscle. Its very reliefing for me, maybe you can get something out of it yourself (remember to warm up and proceed with caution, letting the body guide you and dont go too far!!!). An exercise where this is also done is in capoeira, doing the basic stance (ginga), but I guess this is a little overkill

All those sorts of exercises where you lie on your back and twist thighs to the sides are very good for imediate relief. Theres a number of them, but it should feel like morning stretching (sorry, whats the word for this, when one stretches when coming out of bed? cant remember, but its like cats do and it goes with yawning

)

Reiki... hum. Why do I get the notion that is sort of a hype? People are always looking for magic pills, but most often it is our deep ingrained habits that must be dealt with. And all that energy passing through hands, I dunno. Im very little informed about it, so if it works for you, by all means do it. You may need to do something more to complement it, in any case

Regarding #62, I tend to take one more meaning into account recently, which is "attention to details". Does this make more sense? After all, back pain comes precisely from an accumulation of slightly wrong things

 

[louise]

Hi Pedro, no reiki ain't a magic pill and I wouldn't have believed it was so great till I had it - try it sometime. I would not just rely on it for the back, my reiki practioners have suggested stretches etc aswell - clearly movement for a muscular problem is going to be very important.

Yesterday I saw a physiotherapist the Dr sent me too. I thought I better give it a go. She advised me not to do yoga then proceeded to give me excersizes which were in fact the Cobra, the head to knee pose and a kind of back rock ? I will ignore her advice about not doing yoga, but as you say I think a good teacher is important to get it right and not strain.

I adore the idea of very slow excersize, thankyou for your other ideas too

 

[pedro]

Tarthang Tulku's book (actually 2 vols) is available from amazon. The whole book is inspiring, cause it deals with integrating everything, body, feelings and mind. It is like one enters a new dimension by reducing our pace. The slow motion movements open new sensations we didnt realise were present all along, and liberates all hidden tensions, fears, etc, hidden within our neuro muscular system. Its really addicting, and very powerful yet in a tibetan way. I strongly recomend it to everyone, cause I love it so much
His more popular book "gestures of balance" is also gratifying reading.
Just search for "kum nye" at amazon and you'll see both volumes, along with a paperback that may be both vols in one book. You can peek the intro of vol 1