Hex 44 line 5 - simple meaning

[seethis]

I think the whole hexagram is about wanting something really badly and line 5 tells us how to transform by not negatively rejecting what we want so badly but by positively embracing it in a new way. By regognising its initial beauty but covering it we turn it into something very beautiful, a gift from nature because we are surprised that something which comes from greed can turn into something so surprisely positive. Unfortunately, it might not last for very long. So, don’t marry your newly won enlightenment either but learn something from it. Sorry for being a bit simple.

 

[seethis]

Something one might want very badly but one doesn't get it and as a result positively recognises in due course that it can't be owned.

 

[peter2610]

I often find the Daoist interpretation of this hexagram to be accurate. After the culmination of yang energy, incipient yin emerges and encroaches, gradually increasing strength. This can represent, as you describe, growing desire for something that is unattainable; it can also represent the growing potential for doubt and loss of conviction. The fish symbolizes a negative value that must be handled with care - and not allowed to reach the 'guests.' When the fish is no longer in the tank (fourth yang) it signifies that the negative value at first yin has been 'eaten' and accepted into our mind-set.

This hexagram also has frequent connections with force of habit, the undermining of true perception by habitual conditioning. Liu I-Ming describes this as "...aberrant energy increases daily while sound energy decreases daily - the influence of habit becomes second nature."

Fifth yang represents the protection, incubation and eventual emergence of true perception - "expelling intellectualism, concealing illumination within, mundanity cannot get near" - Liu I-Ming. One here at fifth yang guards and protects that which is of the highest value. In Kunst's translation the protective "jade talisman" is held in the mouth - a symbolic representation of concealing and protecting illumination. This is assimilating true yin in order to incubate yang. If we can resist the encroachment of negative values, the 'reality' of the situation becomes spontaneously self-evident and falls to our disposition. From this context, the Zhi Gua for this line, Hex 50, symbolizes our capacity to reject the false and integrate the real.

 

[seethis]

Thanks Peter. This is a good point, although the Daoist interpretation always has a bit of a moral component. I also wonder whether 44.5 is actually expression the fact that sexuality is part of life and brings about the "heir" and that the melon is a symbol of pregnancy (birth of new life) as the ultimate result of the forces of reproduction. I had a dream last night which goes like this, in a nutshell: I was with people I didn't know and we talked about things and one of them pointed out to me that "we [as humans] can only see the flesh" but not the whole cosmos (or nature) as a active field driven by the same reproductive forces. I take from this that the human condition is intrisically selfish because of that. It appears to me that line 44.5 expresses that we shouldn't worry about this but just accept it as it is though it might be advisable to cover it with willow twigs in order to take care of it. To rise out of the human condition and see the bigger Daoist picture could easily become a moral burden which might actually cut us off from the real thing. So, at the moment I prefer to leave this open but cover it with willow twigs to protect it from moral judgement. This way it stays alive as what it is and doesn't dry up in an potentially unfertile moral universe.

 

[peter2610]

Hello Seethis and thanks for your answer.

I also wonder whether 44.5 is actually expression the fact that sexuality is part of life and brings about the "heir" and that the melon is a symbol of pregnancy (birth of new life) as the ultimate result of the forces of reproduction.

I would say yes, that Hexagram 44 is about sexual encounter, but on an inappropriate basis - not one intended to lead to marriage or the producing of an heir. Because the imagery of marriage and reproduction presents such a powerful metaphorical symbol, it is employed extensively by the Yijing - primarily didactically, in order to represent analogous circumstances of appropriate and inappropriate union. In Hex 44 the sexual encounter is described as inappropriate in that the correct basis for a union has not been established. For Yin to emerge below and move dynamically upwards, coming to meet Yang in this way, is not in keeping with its innate nature, hence this is not a favourable situation (compare this with Hex 11, in which yin and yang mutually converge, resulting in a successful union at fifth yin). In my view of Hex 44, fifth yang represents, not a generative union at any cost, nor is it the Mysterium Coniunctionis between yin and yang leading to the realization of essence. Rather, it represents the preservation of true perception in the face of encroaching negativity and unconscious influence by the anima/animus.

The description of your dream is very interesting, and might possibly echo your recent entry and interactions on this forum. As for the 'moral burden' imposed by Taoism, my own personal experience is quite the opposite in that I find the increased insight that Taoism offers, into human nature and psychological dynamics, to be liberating and illuminating. I personally don't view true moral values as being accurately identified by the framework of social and/or cultural mores and strictures, enforced by social condemnation and legal punishments - these represent only the external, culturally conditioned attempts to emulate morality. At its source, morality is the personal choice posed by what we may become in contrast to what we will become if we fail to reflect on our attitudes, decisions and actions. It is not a social construct, but an intrinsic psychological potential. It is our immediate moral responsibility to ourselves that extends, albeit in a distorted simulation, to formulate cultural values, not the other way around, and, as such, moral reflection offers a potent means to individuation, the enrichment of our lives, and the lives of others. To deny this process is simply to deny the integration of self and cause the projection of our unseen shadow onto the external world, a process that will inevitably cause suffering for oneself and others. "Meine Herren, vergessen Sie nicht das Unnbewusste ist auch draussen" - Gentlemen, do not forget that the unconscious is also on the outside. - Jung.

 

[seethis]

Huh Peter, you seem to have a genuine negative take on hex 44, if I understand you correctly. To be honest, I don't really know what it means and neither am I at all sure what morality is. Somehow I think it is something necessary in the sense that we cannot be without and it part of the package of being human and somehow caught up in the flesh/world. Whether I like it or not, I make value judgements all the time because I "can only see the flesh", meaning orgasm (and what would be sexuality without it) serves the continuation/reproduction of humans but it is bound to be selfish and only offers a glimpse of what some people migth call satori or enlightenment. I remember the 1970s and indulging into LSD orgies where I had mental orgasms and thought I could see that the universe was an ongoing orgasm in my head but paid a hefty prise when coming down by being temporarily paranoid. I have long given up striving for anything like this and rather prefer walking in the gloomy valleys of my sinful existence in the flesh, hoping to somehow reconsile and transcend my shortcomings, not even see them as such. When I look at line 44.5 I see this powerful encounter and tend to cover it up with willow twigs because it is ever so powerful. I stil think that it expresses the encounter between men and women but it is untamed and out of order, pure nature and beyond any moral category. In a way I wished I could look at it the way you do. My world would be in much better order but I fear this is not for me anymore. I just sail on and see what is going to happen next and hopefully grasp some important insights along the way, some learning substantial enough, something based in experience in myself and through myself.... it goes on and on.... I like 44.5 since it gives me hope that the big melon doesn't go off and keeps on glowing (a bit like the sun) but it is better to give it some shade, some rest by covering it up with a willow twig.

 

[peter2610]

Hello Seethis.
I'll try to give you a meaningful response but first I have to say that your posts are very difficult to reply to because, although they are presented as pertaining to the Yijing, they're not actually enquiring about the Yijing. They are more about imposing a completely different paradigm onto the Yijing, and mixing it with some very subjective experiences and interpretations. From your other posts, I fully appreciate and respect your academic knowledge and experience, but you cannot simply transfer another discipline across wholesale and inflict it upon a subject that requires decades of study and application in its own right.
I first started writing this reply by setting out all the structural and interpretative reasons why I think your take on 44.5 is incorrect. As expert witnesses for my argument I was going to call on Wang Bi, Liu I-Ming, Chih-hsu Ou-i, Wilhelm, Cleary etc. and combine these with structural observations incorporating the nuclear progression, and correlative aspects such as the fan yao etc. But then I realized that I was simply wasting my time, that you weren't remotely approaching this as a question of interpretative accuracy, that the commentaries given by the above Chinese scholars wouldn't actually mean very much. And that is where, I feel, the problem lies. The wisdom of these people cannot simply be dismissed and walked-over because they wrote their observations in the distant past. Yijing divination does involve a measure of intuition and interpretation, but that should only be applied on the basis of the original texts. If our interpretations are to carry any authenticity at all, they must be consistent with the meaningful content of the Yijing's textual and structural content. I could describe 44.5 as meaning that the querent was going to open a fruit-shop (specializing in exotic melons) and that in the fifth year the building will collapse and fall down (and there are parts of this forum where such an interpretation would be enthusiastically welcomed), but that would have no relevance whatsoever to the meaning of the line.

As for a negative assessment of Hex 44, all I can say is that I view all the hexagrams to be of equal value. If I'm driving my car, a road sign that indicates I'm going in the wrong direction is just as valuable as one that confirms that I'm on the right route. There are no positive or negative hexagrams.

Having said all that, the honest admission in your reply is appreciated, so let's see if we can build a meaningful dialogue from there. The union of man and woman is universally symbolic of wholeness or holiness. It represents the consummation of relative values, the Mysterium Coniunctionis that produces Essence, Nirvana, the Lapis Philosophorum, the Gold Elixir etc. etc At both a personal and universal level, it is the continuous interplay of yin and yang that produces the Essence that is the Tao, the ongoing universal bliss that you describe in your post. It is blissful because it is unconditional and whole. We experience this bliss in the loving union of man and woman but it can also be attained within the self. This is what Jesus was referring to when he said: There are many standing at the door, but it is the solitary who will enter the bridal chamber.” Gospel of Thomas 75. [I believe the more accurate translation to be: There are many standing at the door, but who amongst you could enter the bridal chamber alone. - But I can't seem to find that one at the moment] It is the integration of self that produces the ultimate transcendent union. Within each man lies the ultimate challenge of integrating his feminine psychic core, the Anima. Each woman must ultimately integrate her internal male counterpart, the Animus. I believe Paul Brunton was correct when he said that God would be more accurately described as 'IT' rather than 'Him.'


Finally, please find below part of my initial reply to your last post, a working example of how Hex 44 can sometimes appear:

let's say that there was a specific long-term issue in my life on which I have repeatedly followed the guidance I've received from the Yijing. A difficult issue which might not resolve for some time. Let's say that on the whole I go along with the positive eventual outcome indicated by the Yijing, but occasionally have doubts and second thoughts about that outcome. When I then question the guidance I've been given, the answer for this and other similar situations will very often be Hex 44. The answer might include third yang - 'No skin....walking comes hard' - meaning that in questioning its guidance, I'm not allowing myself to be led by the I Ching on this issue. The answer might also include fifth yang (one of my fovourite lines in the Yijing) - 'A melon covered with willow leaves. Hidden lines. Then it drops down to one from heaven,' - '...the will does not give up what has been ordained' (Small Image), meaning that eventually, when other factors in the situation (hidden lines) are completed, the direction given by the I Ching will be validated; if I can sustain my direction and purpose, and guard against loss of will, then the predicted successful outcome will fall to my disposition. Kunst's holding of the protective 'talisman' in the mouth points to the same process - guarding and protecting (concealing and nurturing) belief and true perception. The Fan Yao for this line, 50.5, correlates with 44.5 in the sense that it (50.5) represents the capacity to 'receive what is real' - to be receptive to authentic guidance, and persevere - 'It is beneficial to be single-minded,' - Liu I-Ming.

 

[seethis]

Dear Peter. Sorry I havn't replied but I was preoccupied with pressing personal matters. I see that you are a very serious person and you quite rightly critisise me being rather flippant - I guess my flippantness has to do with the very nature of hexagram 44. After all this time, since October, I can't go into every point you made in your above response nor will I be able to reconnect exactly what I said when starting this thread on 44.5 ---- I do admit that, in the meantime, I have come to the conclusion that hexagram 44 is all about temptation and perhaps 44.5 is about how to successfully deal with it by not getting hooked. A friend gave me a picture of a Chinese translation which shows an image of someone fishing without a hook on his fishing line and that this was a sign of this person brilliance. I guess that temptation is a difficult thing to deal with and perhaps line 5 shows the only situation in which one is fully aware of it and therefore doesn't get hurt. I admit, I continue to be puzzled by it! Anyhow, thanks for your reply and I hope things are going well for you and I want to wish you a very happy and prosperous new year!

 

[wck6265]

A Heavenly Call

I was struggling hard not to participate in this hot debate. Finally, it becomes clear to me I am only delivering a message. As such how the message is being received has nothing to do with the delivery boy.

The story starts with the old man fishing without a hook. He used to be my Spiritual Teacher, when I was struggling to understand I Ching in the early years.

This guy has been made a legend in one of the Chinese Classics. He spent his whole life waiting for a big break; firmly believed that this break was his heavenly call. He got his break when he was in the 90s; helping to overthrow and then start a new dynasty.

His no-hook theory now symbolizes the essence of I Ching: everything happens naturally when the time comes.

Gou 44 is now making its call on you. You have been hooked onto a heavenly opportunity that could transform your life drastically; and effortlessly too if you know how to answer the call.

Being a heavenly call, it will come on strongly; blocking every other ways except the one you are supposed to response. There should be plenty of signals all around you; or temptations, if that is the way you want to see them.

Signals mean things that do not normally happen, suddenly sprouting around you. Put all these signals together to complete a big puzzle: this will give you a complete picture of what this call is all about. Heavenly call usually comes wrapped up and needs a bit of effort to decode.

If the call came as early as October, the opportunity could have started slipping away already. My message to you: do not live to regret it. Act now.

 

[wck6265]

The meaning of a heavenly call

According to the no-hook fisherman: when a fish comes jumping into your fish basket voluntarily, it means that time has come for action.

But, what sort of action? An obvious answer will be: it depends on what type of fish it is.

My point is: when heaven calls, it means that it is time to decide: a decision that could change the course of your life. This decision will be made basing on the picture painted by the signals collected.

Collecting the correct signals becomes the first step towards a correct decision. The key to collecting signals is to flow in tandem with the events that are dictating your life now; otherwise you will be swept away by the strong undercurrent.

Moving in tandem with the flow enables you to keep your presence of mind and read correctly the happenings around you. Temptations form part of this flow; but are not the main subject matter.

Putting the signals together is the second step. The best way to decide if a right decision has been made is to put it to test. The heavenly way is the way that things will move positively forward swimmingly; but unfortunately, it usually is not what we wish for.

I wish I can have your full readings to understand the cause and effect of this state of being. As it is, I just hope that I have not make any misleading statements that confuse rather than clarify.

 

[sooo]

Thanks Peter. This is a good point, although the Daoist interpretation always has a bit of a moral component.

I find quite the opposite, i.e. "say good and evil is born." DDJ

Moral distinctions belong more to the Confucian school than Daoist.

Integrity is found in interpretation. A thief will still interpret as a thief. Is there ever an ethical thief, or liar? How about the cunning of a prince, in 36.5? Or innocent misfortune and the gain of one who helps themselves to someone's untied property, in 25.3?

A starving man will steal an apple, or an apple pie, if he has any good sense, and I doubt the Yi would advise him not to.

I'm not sure enough to say the Yi is amoral, as I do perceive the current as moving somewhere, and I see the countervailing forces restraining it. I'm just not black or white clear on who the good guys are from the bad guys. Sometimes the bad guys (countervailing force) are what makes an average human evolutionarily above average.

What happens in 44.5 has been described really well in preceding posts, imo, including yours, seethis.

 

[seethis]

Hey, thanks for your responses to the brilliant fisherman. I went shopping earlier on and while I was waiting in the queue to pay I felt a female standing behind me, someone completely unknown, but for some reason I felt arroused and I thought of the fisherman who was fishing without a hook. I felt the sexual energy going through me and beyond and enjoyed this trememndously. I thought that the world is full of this energy and that some people are more aware of it than others and that it was perfectly alright and that this energy could trigger all sorts of actions but I felt entirely content the way I felt, feeling a certain temptation of wanting to act on it and at the same time no need to to do so, just enjoying the world around me and me in it. It was certainly not a spiritual experience but an entirely wordly and quite reassuring one.

 

[gene]

In the final analysis, any hexagram can mean anything. It all depends on the depth and the need of the reader and what they need. Hexagram 44 may be "all about sexuality on one level but on another it has nothing to do with it.

It is really the Confucian model that incorporates morality as Confucias was concerned with the structure of society and how individuals relate to society and vice versa. On the Taoist, (or Dowist) level, the structure has more to do with one's internal energy, and how to use that energy to endow oneself with increased ch'i energy, or as we might say life force.

That being said, these lines can have multiple meanings and the meanings in any given instance come more alive if we have a specific question pertinent to something going on in our life. None of the interpretations above are necessarily wrong, but they only fit when the context is right. If one is concerned about a question regarding a relationship it narrows the field a little bit, but there are still multiple answers possible.

And here is the crux of the question with the I Ching. Superman has a bit of a point about the use of the I Ching. Although I do not feel it is a dangerous undertaking, it is not evil in any way, we must be careful about our take on it. It is not a driver of fate. If we get a reading that appears fateful, it is only so if we do not heed the advice given in the reading. All too often we get a disappointing reading and think everything is hopeless. It is not. Now, that does not mean that the relationship is going to work even if the I Ching says it won't, what I am referring to is a fateful idea we have that if we want something we should have that particular thing. Life doesn't work that way. But it does work in such a way that if we relax and let things work of their own accord, as line 6 of hexagram 5 says, "without a move on one's own part, there is outside intervention." this is the outcome when we relax and let the universe fulfill his purpose.

Then.... we have to understand the lines of the I Ching as an information packet that is always true. Whether we get the line or not. It seems not so. Any line may not answer the queston, but it does answer a question about us and who we are. It does answer a question about the nature of the universe. It makes not one whit of difference whether you get that relationship, or get that job, although it will certainly seem that way. What makes a difference is if we understand the nature of the universe and are able to maintain harmony with it. When we are in harmony with the universe, then, though things may seem like they are not going well, we find out as in hexagram 44 line 5, that there is a hidden side to all things, (hidden lines) and what appears to be negative, (the negative side of hexagram 44) turns out unexpectedly to be positive. While the judgment on the hexagram as a whole appears negative, it is only so when we are not in harmony with the power of the hexagram. After all, heaven and earth must come together to meet each other. So must male and female in relationship. Hexagram 44 can become negative for us if we disregard the advice that we must be "free of dishonest or ulterior motives." So we search our own soul. We do not just give up on the situation as hopeless. We examine ourselves. The image tells us that though we are far from our people, (our inner motives) we must exert influence on ourselves through the commands of the I Ching, (our higher selves.)

Gene

 

[Yasmin]

Brilliant thread, thank you Peter (a few years later) for finally helping me understand this line. While visiting a country where an old flame lives, I was wondering whether to contact him. He really disappointed me in the past, but has been insistently trying to get back in touch recently. Part of me still wishes, hopes another try would work out. But my brain is saying "are you insane? Why would you want to expose yourself to getting hurt again?". In short, the reading says: 44.5 there may be encroaching temptation, but hold fast, preserve your perception, guard against loss of will, then the reality of the situation will become self evident. Crystal clear!

 

[drSurya]

In my experience, 44.5 means "not yet, keep it for later use, don't reveal it yet". However, the accent is put on "don't do it now" rather than "there will be a better opportunity later". The later opportunity may not materialise at all.

 

[gene]

Hello Seethis and thanks for your answer.



I would say yes, that Hexagram 44 is about sexual encounter, but on an inappropriate basis - not one intended to lead to marriage or the producing of an heir. Because the imagery of marriage and reproduction presents such a powerful metaphorical symbol, it is employed extensively by the Yijing - primarily didactically, in order to represent analogous circumstances of appropriate and inappropriate union. In Hex 44 the sexual encounter is described as inappropriate in that the correct basis for a union has not been established. For Yin to emerge below and move dynamically upwards, coming to meet Yang in this way, is not in keeping with its innate nature, hence this is not a favourable situation (compare this with Hex 11, in which yin and yang mutually converge, resulting in a successful union at fifth yin). In my view of Hex 44, fifth yang represents, not a generative union at any cost, nor is it the Mysterium Coniunctionis between yin and yang leading to the realization of essence. Rather, it represents the preservation of true perception in the face of encroaching negativity and unconscious influence by the anima/animus.

The description of your dream is very interesting, and might possibly echo your recent entry and interactions on this forum. As for the 'moral burden' imposed by Taoism, my own personal experience is quite the opposite in that I find the increased insight that Taoism offers, into human nature and psychological dynamics, to be liberating and illuminating. I personally don't view true moral values as being accurately identified by the framework of social and/or cultural mores and strictures, enforced by social condemnation and legal punishments - these represent only the external, culturally conditioned attempts to emulate morality. At its source, morality is the personal choice posed by what we may become in contrast to what we will become if we fail to reflect on our attitudes, decisions and actions. It is not a social construct, but an intrinsic psychological potential. It is our immediate moral responsibility to ourselves that extends, albeit in a distorted simulation, to formulate cultural values, not the other way around, and, as such, moral reflection offers a potent means to individuation, the enrichment of our lives, and the lives of others. To deny this process is simply to deny the integration of self and cause the projection of our unseen shadow onto the external world, a process that will inevitably cause suffering for oneself and others. "Meine Herren, vergessen Sie nicht das Unnbewusste ist auch draussen" - Gentlemen, do not forget that the unconscious is also on the outside. - Jung.

You are right, it is the Confucian model that generally speaking is more moralistic, although that is true more in its simpler forms. Nevertheless, there is a place for both forms, and interestingly enough this hexagram provides for both a moralistic basis and a nonmoralistic. However, both are intertwined, because calling it a moral judgment is one thing, it is another if that moral judgment comes from simply observing the facts of what happens and what doesn't. The Taoist model would simply say this does or doesn't work, but from that a judgment can be formed. Is it wrong to have raw sex without any attachment or concern for the partner? Or is it just not a wise thing to do it? But more than that, is it wrong for the natural energy of the universe to move in a certain way? Or is it just detrimental to well being?

The Taoist model is more concerned about the flow of the tao and following that flow, which is called "the natural way." than it is with what society should or should not do. But at the same time often those should or should nots are based on the natural law of the tao, and the effects they produce not only in nature but in the human form.

It is said there is true yin and false yin, true yang and false yang, for neither yang nor yin have any intrinsic righteousness within themselves, one more than the other. But it is separating the true from the false that makes for proper energy flow and an enlightened society.

 

[iams girl]

I'd also add as a reference Bradford's Yijing-One interpretation of line 44.5.

His imagery includes a host going about his ordinary business while having green melons and corked wine stored in the cellar until the right day and time when they will be ready to be brought forth as sacramental elements. It gave me peace, in my situation, to think in terms of my work towards long-term goals being mostly complete, the rest being out of my hands and a matter of timing until things came to fruition. So, I think with 44.5 there is also an emphasis on the assurance of having a hidden treasure which allows for the patience and confidence needed to let things progress naturally from there.