Hex 51.2 Climb the nine hills

[svenrus]

"Climbing the nine hills"

Just deleted this text as I found it allready is to be found in Wilhelm/Baynes I Ching.

But when on the subject: "Climbing the nine hills" in hex 51 six in second line, here we see again a certain ciffer being used, and again in the same line: "In seven days...". Throughout the I one finds certain numbers and not others, like: the number three, seven, eight, nine and ten. At the moment I don't remember other numbers being used... (?)

(Couldn't delete it with the tools normally used)

 

[sooo]

Much ado about nothing, or, it's just not worth getting excited over.

 

[sooo]

Svenrus, I just realized something about what you've quoted. I've always interpreted climbing the nine hills as meaning unnecessarily creating a lot of strenuous work for oneself. What you've quoted suggests that climbing those nine hills means to retreat from the situation. That seems incorrect to me. An inward retreat, such as in 33, has heaven above to retreat to. 51 only has more shock or arousal above as below. I notice LiSe also suggests that climbing those mounds as a way of escaping the excitement, and Bradford also seems to suggest this. Maybe I'm mistaken, but my experience during times of receiving this line is to not scramble, fight or run away. Climbing nine mounds suggests a lot of going up and down repeatedly, but with no progress made whatsoever. It seems like a waste of time and energy to go running up and down repeatedly, the very sort of thing I see line 2 is saying to avoid. As I wrote earlier, it's just not worth getting all excited over - which is the point of 51 in general: to keep ones calm during a time when there's a great sensation all around you; do not drop the sacred ladle. Do not run up and down those many mounds. Do not try to win arguments. What belongs to you will return on their own.

 

[svenrus]

What You have experienced is something like the myth of Sisyphus(*) I guess ?

I see some posibilities other than this:

1) That there were a place when the I was written actually called "The nine hills" (**)

2) The number nine according to the "River Lo map" (***) ie the direction South

3) Meaning something like "all the hills of the world", the number nine meaning 'all' (****)

4) Meaning: "long lasting" (久) (*****)

Or: Turn the wheel of luck seeing which meaning it may have


* Wikipedia

** like we today got our "Seven seas".

***


**** actually it should in this case had been "The ten mountains" as ten is the highest number according to the fifth wing, Dazhuan, IX (see Richard Rutt: Zhouyi p. 415, Routledge 2007) in the Great treatise (http://svenrus.dk/thegreattreatiseriverlomap.pdf)

***** Wikipedia

 

[svenrus]

Please forget the abovementioned Wheel of luck....

Here and there I've read that these very short sentensented advises that is to be found in the earliest I Ching does not have only one meaning but that they actually is that short-sentensented because they tells different things in different times and toward different situations in different persons lifes.
What to example this picture with the nine hills means for one person in one specific situation it doesn't mean for another person in another situation and time....
What it meant to Richard Wilhelms guide Yao Naixuan it probably doesn't meant to Wang Bi or for that matter John Blofeld.... Y.N.'s interpretation where surely right as well as W.B. and J.B.'s interpretations was.

The text of I Ching does with other words not only have one meaning, but adresses itself to everyone in every time and situation in any way necessary I guess.

 

[Trojina]

FWIW I think 51.2 is a line of great sadness. One loses something very dear and must travel on without them. I have always taken it that these 9 hills are one's long journey in life, voyage...It is a line of comfort also that what seems lost and longed for will one day be restored, perhaps in another way than is expected. I will post a song that I feel encapsulates the feel of 51.2...

[video=youtube;EoCPuhhE6dw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EoCPuhhE6dw#t=2[/video]



yes it's terribly corny but I feel the emotions involved here are not small and petty at all. I would more or less say the opposite to what Sooo says about it. I feel the nine hills are where one must go to retreat, to let go....one has to leave


The words from Wilhelm

'Shock comes bringing danger.
A hundred thousand times
You lose your treasures
And must climb the nine hills.
Do not go in pursuit of them.
After seven days you will get them back again.

When it says 'treasures' this is something you value immensely yet must leave behind. I think there is usually sadness with the line.

Yet there is the seven days which suggests not such a long time. I think this can be a very big thing indeed


I know you are looking for the more scholarly angle on this but I thought I'd add my thoughts are they are so different to Sooo's take. I never even heard of Sooo's take before. I think it's a serious line dealing with big things, big feelings, big themes...

 

[sooo]

I like the analogy, Svenrus.

What I see as omitted in the announcement within 51.2 is the all important condition, the "if", just as is contained in the hexagram 51 itself. There's the great wave of initial shock (Uh oh! Oh no!), and then the laughing words (Ha! Ha!). So then, if one is overcome by the shaken sensation, then the absurdity of the Greek myth alluded to by Camus' Myth of Sisyphus - condemned to repeat forever the same meaningless task of pushing a boulder up a mountain, only to see it roll down again - is the fate of the one who has become entangled in the sensation. Line 2 begins with after being overcome or overwhelmed, but in actuality this is a choice one makes, just as in the whole of hexagram 51.

I have experienced it both ways. I've pushed the boulder up mountains repeatedly, and I've also realized the absurdity of condition at hand, and have chosen to laugh instead. When I have realized the condition in time, realizing the absurdity of the argument (in my most memorable instance), calmness was restored as though it had never happened, and we laughed together, neither dropping what was sacred to us individually.

 

[Trojina]

I don't think it's got anything to do with pushing boulders at all. One must climb the hills, one must relinquish something, but one is advised what is lost will return. Climbing the nine hills is about taking distance, taking time out, away, leaving something, letting go of something. It really has nothing to do with pushing boulders up hills. The line doesn't say that.

The nine hills are making distance...which can be in time or emotionally. Like one wanted something here but it is no longer here so I must take my leave...but not to worry, I need not fret, it will return in it's own time.

I can't see where you get the idea of pushing boulders from. He is climbing hills not pushing boulders. There is no 'if' in 51.2

 

[Trojina]

...oh well just completely different views of the same line. So different it's hard to imagine we are referring to the same line. I'd think 9 hills was distance not carrying rocks.

 

[svenrus]

.... James Legge dosn't have this "nine hills" mentioned. Richard Rutt have it submitted in cursive. In Gregory C. Richter * it's just: The THUNDER COMES, bringing DANGER. A HUNDRED THOUSAND COWRIE SHELLS
are LOST. (my note: cowrieshells are another word for kind of payment in those time afro-indian areas. From the dictionary)

*) http://grichter.sites.truman.edu/home/

 

[svenrus]

Back to the topic: I have started up this thread and I am the one to loose up the loose ends.

Well, my question is not to be answered as "The nine hills" seems to be a picture that was added to hex 51 second six somewere in the remote past.... Who to ask ?

- Not me !

I've noticed that surtain numbers occurs througout the I Ching, such as: number three , seven, eight, nine and ten. (Any other ?) To example: Why nine hills instead of three hills ? Or the many peaks... ? Why seven days instead of six days - or two weeks - or ? These are thee numbers (3,7,8,9,10) and it's a bit strange to me that all of the other numbers are left out - I mean: these specific numbers have to mean something - I don't know what. Do You...

Sorry if I have overseen other numbers mentioned throughout the text in the I (PLEASE correct me in such case)

 

[sooo]

Wilhelm, Bradford and LiSe (and I'm sure others) also use the number 100,000 in their 51.2 text. Does anyone really believe that's intended to be taken literally?

Whether using mounds, peaks, boulders, cowrie shells, time, or thunder itself, we're dealing with metaphor, which is merely a figure of speech to express an idea. The real question is, which idea?

The fact that more than one authority claims to know the meaning of a given metaphor does not make that meaning infallible and irrefutable. Or if it is irrefutable, so should the evidence to prove it also be.

I've merely presented my idea based on my personal experience with the line; nothing less, nothing more. I've said before that I may be mistaken. I'm still open to discussion on the matter, but I'm not interested in arguing.

 

[sooo]

I also just noticed that Brad's text includes this important information:

To not give chase (means) seven days to gain.

This implies a choice and a benefit to not run after it... i.e. do not scramble up those hills?

 

[Trojina]

Mmm yes I noticed that but I've never seen it as scrambling though. He's not running away, just going on elsewhere when what was sought is not there, gone. Nine hills to me has always seemed like further questing, further adventuring, further yearning. There's an ache to it. I don't know why but the nine hills, when one goes on and on in further quest to me has always seemed to span a great deal of time. 51 is a very emotive hexagram...full of shocks of feeling. Here the shock makes him go on further quests...yet nothing is lost. I don't think that means he goes back to what he had before. He does regain what's lost but in a new way since he's gone beyond the old conditions where what was lost seemed gone forever.

My own experience with the line colours my view that these are situations where one has already left Also the feel of the line I've always had was not of staying with or finding exactly what was lost but finding it beyond the 9 hills...9 hills seems a long way to me in time and distance. My experiences with the line do seem to span very long terms events. Things that vanished a long time ago coming back in other ways....The 7 days doesn't exactly fit with that but still

Beyond the various translations we clearly have very different experiences with the line and so different sense of it. I wouldn't argue with your own experience of it, it's just the rock carrying, penitential aspect you describe isn't something I've ever noticed....although going off to the nine hills can seem like exile or banishment I suppose.


Fundamentally the difference in our views of 51.2 seem to be you think it means you can stay where you are and not go running after lost things. I think you have already left the scene of loss so you must move on, but you will nevertheless recover what was lost .

 

[sooo]

I agree with your observation of our different views.

I view the ache, which I acknowledge, as angst, and angst is always a choice, or a matter of self-control or mind-control or control of emotions. Not always easy though, and in fact sometimes very difficult.

Experience most certainly colors ones view. If we don't learn through our experience we're pretty certain to repeat our mistakes.

The most vivid experience, without going into detail, which I did once before concerning this line, was an argument over religion. I could find evidence to substantiate my position, but he could find evidence to refute my claim. We were both pretty excited and sure of our own positions. That's what happens with exclusively self-referencing material, such as the Bible. Always contradictions can be found, never ending mounds to climb; hence why I think Sven's example of Sisyphus' task of pushing a boulder up a mountain, only to see it roll down again - again, just a metaphor for futility - is apropos. Religious arguments are typically that way. Wherever ones personal faith is invested, there's the sense of a treasure that one must defend and hold onto. But ones real treasure is their sensibility, and that flies out the window when one gets all worked up over their beliefs. But not giving chase means not trying to prove ones point when it's absurd to pursue what is a circular argument that you just can't win.

When this fellow and I got back together again, we just agreed to disagree and get on with things we shared in common. Neither of us felt like getting all worked up over nothing.

Now, I respect that your experiences were different, but I can't deny my own. It's funny how discussions about a certain hexagram or line seems to take on the very nature of that hexagram or line.

Anyway, sorry for the detour, Svenrus. Perhaps someone else can directly address your interest regarding numbers in the Yijing. I just consider them as metaphors of various measures.

 

[Trojina]

I view the ache, which I acknowledge, as angst, and angst is always a choice, or a matter of self-control or mind-control or control of emotions. Not always easy though, and in fact sometimes very difficult

Well no you haven't understood me. It wasn't like that at all.. Don't reframe my own experience in your terms. I don't see 'angst' as much part of 51.2 at all. It's much wider and deeper than that. It's fine if you don't recognise my experience but don't repackage it into something it isn't and never was.

The most vivid experience, without going into detail, which I did once before concerning this line, was an argument over religion. I could find evidence to substantiate my position, but he could find evidence to refute my claim. We were both pretty excited and sure of our own positions. That's what happens with exclusively self-referencing material, such as the Bible. Always contradictions can be found, never ending mounds to climb; hence why I think Sven's example of Sisyphus' task of pushing a boulder up a mountain, only to see it roll down again - again, just a metaphor for futility - is apropos. Religious arguments are typically that way. Wherever ones personal faith is invested, there's the sense of a treasure that one must defend and hold onto. But ones real treasure is their sensibility, and that flies out the window when one gets all worked up over their beliefs. But not giving chase means not trying to prove ones point when it's absurd to pursue what is a circular argument that you just can't win.

When this fellow and I got back together again, we just agreed to disagree and get on with things we shared in common. Neither of us felt like getting all worked up over nothing.

Well that explains things. My own experiences with the line have nothing that would connect to yours...not even remotely. My experiences had nothing to do with petty arguments at all, hence our widely diverging view of the line.

Now, I respect that your experiences were different, but I can't deny my own. It's funny how discussions about a certain hexagram or line seems to take on the very nature of that hexagram or line.

I haven't asked you to deny your own..

Anyway I'm done...


Do continue with Svrenus and the boulders

 

[sooo]

I agree with your observation of our different views.

 

[svenrus]

Wilhelm, Bradford and LiSe (and I'm sure others) also use the number 100,000 in their 51.2 text. Does anyone really believe that's intended to be taken literally?

Whether using mounds, peaks, boulders, cowrie shells, time, or thunder itself, we're dealing with metaphor, which is merely a figure of speech to express an idea. The real question is, which idea?

The fact that more than one authority claims to know the meaning of a given metaphor does not make that meaning infallible and irrefutable. Or if it is irrefutable, so should the evidence to prove it also be.

I've merely presented my idea based on my personal experience with the line; nothing less, nothing more. I've said before that I may be mistaken. I'm still open to discussion on the matter, but I'm not interested in arguing.

I guess You'r right here.

(One thing about the study of the I that I like is it's ability to make You wonder, wonder....)

 

[Brendon]

what is it really, climb the nine hills, a name of a book and what it has to do with hexagram

 

[svenrus]

James Legge mention that seven days refer to a new line as there are six lines in a hexagram (*)

If imagined that this new line is the bottomline in the next hexagram, 52, it's Mountain over Mountain (Kán) and about mountains in general as seen in old China John Minford (**) mention ".... Mountains are numinous places, where mortals come close to the world of the Spirits, where they connect with Gods. Mountains mediate between the human world and that of Heaven.......".

Lookin at it this way mountains could be seen as a place for retreat and meditation as I see it.



(*) "....... On its use here ^ing-jze says : ' The places of a diagram amount to 6. The number 7 is the first of another. ....." (p. 175/pdf, 201 in This pdf ed.)

(**) John Minford, I Ching, Viking Penguin Group, N.Y 2014 p. 406

 

[svenrus]

what is it really, climb the nine hills, a name of a book and what it has to do with hexagram

Brendon: basically I ask the same question

 

[bradford]

It's just symbolic of going frantically all over the place, an exhaustive process.
億 yi4 in the original is literally 100,000, but also means uncountable.