Hex 8>39 and 8>64 - relationship with parents

[kkappa]

Dear everyone,

I have been on a very intense spiritual journey for a little while now and have been turning to I ching (again after many years) for answers. I know they are somewhere inside me, I just haven't been listening hard enough. Though in the past I did not know of this community, I am forever grateful for the insights you have been sharing with each other as they have helped me understand the answers I seem to get for my questions in the last month. But there is one I REALLY can't wrap my head around.

Long story short, I have realised that I have been carrying a deep emotional pain around me my entire life related to my parents' attitude towards me. This, I have come to realise, has led me to belive that I am unlovable and has resulted in a number of emotionally unavailable relationships+trying to fix the broken birds around me for self-validation. That's another story though. The key lies in my relationship to my parents.

I asked -
What do I need to understand about my relationship to my mother? 8.3>39
This one I understand completely now and do not have any objections to. I have been clinging to her for advice and insight and caring and whatnot like mad. But this entire time (even before I was born), she hasn't really cared and given me (tough) love as of out of duty. I am on my way to forgiving her for that and realising that her choices have nothing to do with my value as a person. On the bright side, she taught me to be self-reliant (but at what cost, right?).

Then I asked -
What do I need to understand about my relationship to my father? 8.2.4.5.6>64
And this is where I completely lose track about what I am supposed to get out of this. For background information, my father is mentally deeply ill and was probably that way before I was even born. Until I was 11 I worshipped the ground he walked on (of course when the mother didn't give me the attention I so wanted), but then I realised what an emotionally manipulating, self-absorbed man he really was and that he only took me for a nice accessory to be discarded at his pleasing. It was never about me. It was always about him, everybody else in his world were irrelevant. Maybe I am already explaining what this casting is telling me, but I am really struggling with connecting the dots.

Your insight into what I am unable to see right now is so very much appreciated. I am done carrying around this useless emotional baggage that should have had no place in my life to being with. But we live to learn, so let's learn some more.

 

[pocossin]

In the two castings you have every line in 8 except 1, which stands out by its absence:

Wilhelm:
Six at the beginning means:
Hold to him in truth and loyalty;
This is without blame.
Truth, like a full earthen bowl:
Thus in the end
Good fortune comes from without.

Bradford:
Be true in joining with them
Make no mistake:
Being true more than fill this plain clay vessel
The end will come to hold even more promise

Hilary:
‘With truth and confidence, seeking union,
No mistake.
With truth and confidence to overflow the vessel
An end comes – further good fortune.’

Legge:
The first SIX, divided, shows its subject seeking by his sincerity to win the attachment of his object. There will be no error. Let (the breast) be full of sincerity as an earthenware vessel is of its contents, and it will in the end bring other advantages.

I think you want a reconciliation with your parents (or their memory if deceased or remote). There is always some discord between parents and the child who is a distinct individual. All humans experience limitations. They parent as they learned to parent. If you think about the context of your parents' early lives, you may recognize the truth they could not see.

 

[Trojina]

Dear everyone,

I have been on a very intense spiritual journey for a little while now and have been turning to I ching (again after many years) for answers. I know they are somewhere inside me, I just haven't been listening hard enough. Though in the past I did not know of this community, I am forever grateful for the insights you have been sharing with each other as they have helped me understand the answers I seem to get for my questions in the last month. But there is one I REALLY can't wrap my head around.

Long story short, I have realised that I have been carrying a deep emotional pain around me my entire life related to my parents' attitude towards me. This, I have come to realise, has led me to belive that I am unlovable and has resulted in a number of emotionally unavailable relationships+trying to fix the broken birds around me for self-validation. That's another story though. The key lies in my relationship to my parents.

I asked -
What do I need to understand about my relationship to my mother? 8.3>39
This one I understand completely now and do not have any objections to. I have been clinging to her for advice and insight and caring and whatnot like mad. But this entire time (even before I was born), she hasn't really cared and given me (tough) love as of out of duty. I am on my way to forgiving her for that and realising that her choices have nothing to do with my value as a person. On the bright side, she taught me to be self-reliant (but at what cost, right?).

Then I asked -
What do I need to understand about my relationship to my father? 8.2.4.5.6>64
And this is where I completely lose track about what I am supposed to get out of this. For background information, my father is mentally deeply ill and was probably that way before I was even born. Until I was 11 I worshipped the ground he walked on (of course when the mother didn't give me the attention I so wanted), but then I realised what an emotionally manipulating, self-absorbed man he really was and that he only took me for a nice accessory to be discarded at his pleasing. It was never about me. It was always about him, everybody else in his world were irrelevant. Maybe I am already explaining what this casting is telling me, but I am really struggling with connecting the dots.

Your insight into what I am unable to see right now is so very much appreciated. I am done carrying around this useless emotional baggage that should have had no place in my life to being with. But we live to learn, so let's learn some more.

They are big questions and I can't really hope to address them but what leapt out at me is your relationship with your father, whatever is has been, whatever it looks like now, is still alive and developing. I referring to hex 64, things nowhere near being complete in any way and the lines.....it's as if you do have a deep belonging with your father that you don't have with your mother.

I think we have a tendency thanks to the big business of 'therapy' to think the back story is the story but it isn't . At least my impression is that with your father you are on an ongoing journey. We aren't fixed beings...maybe you don't even know the best of him yet and maybe he doesn't know the best of you ? 8.6 shows a situation where one just cannot hold it together....and you know what to me it looks like a half finished piece of knitting (strange imagery i get ) As a metaphor its like starting to knit a scarf...it unravels a bit....we can't be bothered with it though it did promise to be a beautiful one if we we could finish it...but we just leave it in a tangle in the cupboard, where it remains unfinished. I wonder if you can apply that peculiar metaphor I have conjured to your unfinished relationship with your dad.

As he is the adult I guess it was his role to nurture and complete what he started....you loved him deeply for the first 11 years of life. He didn't live up to that love......and yet thisisn't all about the past...unless he's dead ?

I'm wonderingif instead of thinking the past is this big burden to carry it might help to see it that in actuality this is still a living relationship....going into the future. I think therapist culture has given far too much power to the past and neglected the reality of now and tomorrow....and what things will be. You can't summarise your relationship with him yet because its not finished growing.

Re your mum that does look like a relationship thats sort of stunted, too difficult to pursue. If you do meet her soul to soul one day I think you'd probably be well out of this mother/child dynamic that doesn't work well for With that it looks like its best to let it go at least inwardly. Of course if she is alive you probably still must see her etc but perhaps inside you can let her go her own way. You don't need to cleave to her.

But your dad ? Hmmm. Sounds like he has been selfish to you and yet to me it doesn't look like the story is over. What if you thought of your relation with him as a present ongoing thing, no final chapter yet ?

 

[Trojina]

Actually even if your parents are dead I still think you have an ongoing relationship with them even if in terms of your inner relationship with them and what they represent to you.

 

[meng]

I think the Yi is speaking to intense emotions that are behind these questions, which is hard to do because there is no head for holding together (line 6), and line 3 says you're hanging with wrong people, which for my readings I usually apply to a poor attitude, misconception within myself. In order to "keep it together", 39 turns you back upon yourself to work through, and since there's this work yet to be done, you've also received 64. However, 64 can mean implied, referred or alluded to, which is what you are doing here.

Of course those lines could possibly point to your father, based on your descriptions. One translation, discussed here once, is the term "no people" or "non-people" for line 3. There's several ways one can interpret that, but inhumane is what comes to my mind. Line 6 could refer to his mental illness: no head for keeping himself and others together. Or... does that refer to you?

At the end of the day, these things are for you only to decide, regardless what I or anyone else has to say about it. That's keeping yourself together.

 

[kkappa]

Wow. I'm so very sorry for not having reacted before! I have just finished my Bachelor (yup, I am actually doing all this soulsearching while getting a degree - but worry not, I got the best results and the most reassuring comments with re. to future goals!) so I have been away from reality for a little while.

Absolutely fascinating what you have all said to me, and I know these are not easy questions to find answers to, but at the same time, trying to understand at least some part of it is a step further from denial. Since I did that casting I have been, perhaps for the first time, at ease with myself because I can at least see a little bit clearer now that no good can come of this reconciliation that I have so desired. It is the most curious feeling. People have said that I even walk differently!

But to reply - both of my parents are alive, so of course, both the relationships go on, but that it would be ongoing with my father is puzzling. Maybe on a spiritual level? At least I have no intention of making myself available to him, nor do I look for him. Yet... it is very much an unfinished scarf kind of a situation. How could it not be? If the other person has never been able to see the forest through the trees without blaming everybody else for his own mistakes or short-comings (definitely the "no head for keeping himself and others together" kind of a person), how could you want to pick up and finish that scarf? I have really taken on the attitude that some things (people) are just better left alone. So there you go, perfect metaphor! There will never be rational, logical answers from him, so why bother asking him and how about just finding some sort of ... ANY kind of peace about him within ME instead? I'm not overjoyed to hear that I may have to pick up and finish that scarf one day after all.. He would bring so much chaos into my life. Maybe this is why it isn't unfinished, the thought just hit me - because HE is always looking for me via internet? I have had to hide my name from popping up anywhere because of it because he has been a nasty little person writing emails to all my colleagues that I've ever worked together with and telling them how I have been brainwashed by my mother into not talking to him and so forth. Not to mention the non-stop flow of suicide threats if they don't talk some sense into me, which for any normal person is just TOO much to take in. So you see what I'm up against.

Which brings me to my mother. Meng, the word you used there - "inhumane" is shocking for me to read.. somewhere very deep in my heart I have always described her like that. I don't share many values with her, which has been strange for me to admit, but liberating at the same time.. SO liberating! I am on a holiday with her, her father and her partner right now and words cannot describe how differently I behave around her. I'm standing on my own two feet and she seems to be approaching me in a way that communicates that she can sense my boundaries, but she doesn't quite know how to handle it yet. Well, we will have to deal with each other for two more weeks, so there is plenty of time to learn the steps to the new dance.

Forever many thanks for your replies, they have given me much food for thought!

K

 

[kkappa]

In the two castings you have every line in 8 except 1, which stands out by its absence:

Wilhelm:
Six at the beginning means:
Hold to him in truth and loyalty;
This is without blame.
Truth, like a full earthen bowl:
Thus in the end
Good fortune comes from without.

Bradford:
Be true in joining with them
Make no mistake:
Being true more than fill this plain clay vessel
The end will come to hold even more promise

Hilary:
‘With truth and confidence, seeking union,
No mistake.
With truth and confidence to overflow the vessel
An end comes – further good fortune.’

Legge:
The first SIX, divided, shows its subject seeking by his sincerity to win the attachment of his object. There will be no error. Let (the breast) be full of sincerity as an earthenware vessel is of its contents, and it will in the end bring other advantages.

I think you want a reconciliation with your parents (or their memory if deceased or remote). There is always some discord between parents and the child who is a distinct individual. All humans experience limitations. They parent as they learned to parent. If you think about the context of your parents' early lives, you may recognize the truth they could not see.

I had to pull this one out of the thread, because the funny thing is that lately, as I've been going through many of my relationships and seeing whether I need to re-evaluate them based on my misguided ideas about relationships anyway, I have gotten 8 a couple more times.. without the first line.

I hope you can help me understand this - how should I understand "truth" and "sincerity" in this context? Should I see it as, if I am true to myself first and what I stand for, all of these relationships have a better chance of not being such a burden for me and instead will find a natural way of working out in the end (if they are meant to in the first place?).

 

[pocossin]

how should I understand "truth" and "sincerity" in this context?

I take them to be recognition of and action according to the reality of the situation. The truth of the situation with your father is that he is trying to manipulate you by threatening suicide. It is a form of deceit, and if you acquiesced to it, you would be insincere. Your greater understanding of you parents' limits seems to be freeing you from the trammels of the past.

Is this the idea behind the unfinished scarf reference?

http://www.patriotledger.com/lifestyle/family/x2019334914/Holiday-memories-of-moms-unfinished-scarf

 

[kkappa]

Hehe, that article was spot on. I've been thinking about this unfinished "unfinished business" - I think that's what I need to understand about him - that it'll always be unfinished between us and I should make peace with it. In fact, I think I have. The steps to the new dance between mother and I is also starting to find a nice flow. So all is slowly balancing itself in the world again.

Meng, Trojan, Pocossin - I wish you all a successful 2013 and thank you for your help in understanding the answers to these complicated questions (not to mention the input you keep offering in other threads - you put words to my intuition!)

Forever grateful,
K