...life can be translucent

Menu

Hexagram 18 and Wu Gu shamans

bexytea

visitor
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
Hey all,

I have always been a bit confused about the meaning of hex 18.

I understand it is the presence of toxicity, demons, worms, negative thought patterns, exogenous or endogenous pathogenic influence and/or parasites.

What I do not understand is whether or not this is coming or going.

Some translations indicate "Work on what has been spoiled" in the context of processing, dispelling, banishing and healing from these influences, where some just indicate that the toxicity itself is there.

So I would ask folks what their opinion is, and if you think it is relative (as are many other things in Chinese thought systems) to the context of the question. Also I would ask those who have the mystical powers of translation =) to please shed some light on this curious hexagram.

Also this link may be of some interest as it covers the history of Gu syndrome as well as explaining how and what it treats in the context of disease.

https://www.biroco.com/yijing/Gu_syndrome.pdf

Thanks in advance, your ideas are welcome, eagerly anticipated and awesome.

Bexytea
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
19,923
Reaction score
208
I took this as the question


What I do not understand is whether or not this is coming or going.

Some translations indicate "Work on what has been spoiled" in the context of processing, dispelling, banishing and healing from these influences, where some just indicate that the toxicity itself is there.

So I would ask folks what their opinion is, and if you think it is relative (as are many other things in Chinese thought systems) to the context of the question.
I thought she was asking whether 18 indicates the corruption is already there or is coming or is going, ie being rectified.

Bexytea I think it would depend on the context of the question yes.
 

moss elk

visitor
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
2,311
Reaction score
91
In general, it would mean the corruption is present. Whether it goes away is up to the choice and actions of the person it pertains to.
 

moss elk

visitor
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
2,311
Reaction score
91
Like how I just accidentally closed this thread.
The reopening clears the mistake.
 

bexytea

visitor
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
Haha irony.

Yes I was asking whether or not Hex 18 (as either primary or relating) is an indication that corruption is either festering in itself, or if it is an indication that corruption is in the process of being healed (eg doing The Work), as Trojina suggested.

But what you are suggesting Moss Elk is that hex 18 is the healing of the corruption in itself - eg the *de*toxifying rather than the toxicity?

What I am asking I guess is - Is it the arrival of toxicity or the detoxifying of corruption/worms/toxicity? Or can it mean both, or either, depending on the question.

Apologies I am fairly new to this and am trying to figure out how to phrase questions to human beings rather than the oracle spirits. =)
 

moss elk

visitor
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
2,311
Reaction score
91
18 means the corruption is present.

the advice of 18 is for you (or someone) to fix it, it doesn't fix itself.
generally speaking.
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
19,923
Reaction score
208
But what you are suggesting Moss Elk is that hex 18 is the healing of the corruption in itself - eg the *de*toxifying rather than the toxicity?

What I am asking I guess is - Is it the arrival of toxicity or the detoxifying of corruption/worms/toxicity? Or can it mean both, or either, depending on the question
I think it can mean both or either depending on the question, the tense of the question to start with. I mean if I ask about an intended action, in the future, that I have not yet undertaken, and get 18 I might understand that taking this action will in itself lead to toxicity, perhaps undertaking that action might indicate following an old toxic pattern of behaviour OR that by taking the action I might have the opportunity to rectify something. I don't think there is any cut and dried certain answer. That is I don't think, even after years of consulting Yi, I am any further ahead of you with this, indeed it is something that I'm often unsure of. I think you have to feel your way into it, there isn't an absolute answer to this IMO. I will revisit my 18 answers and see what I can discern from my own answers, if anything. I think only recently in Change Circle we were discussing this.

I guess any time you get 18 there is this toxicity there, but sometimes only potentially perhaps ? Trying to think of a hypothetical example. Say an ex smoker is always in slight danger of resuming the habit, which is a deleterious habit, a corrupt habit. In some questions, say about health/smoking 18 could possibly indicate the danger of falling into an old addiction yet that doesn't mean one will actually do so. Not a very good example, I'm just trying to think of times 18 as an answer could indicate there will be this corruption if path of action a is adhered to and so on.
 

moss elk

visitor
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
2,311
Reaction score
91
I have always been a bit confused about the meaning of hex 18.
...
What I do not understand is whether or not this is coming or going.
In 18 the corruption is Present.
examples:
Show me a picture of that person running for office: 18 unchanging.
Corruption is Present in this person. (He is amongst the slimiest, most criminal and corrupt, I won't name him.)
What if I start smoking again?
18 unchanging.
Corruption will be Present if you do that.
(you'll poison and diminish yourself)
What should I do about this recurring problem in my life? 18 un
Corruption is Present.(figure out what you are most certainly doing wrong, take a deep breath and get to work on changing your behaviour patterns. If you don't, the recurring problems will remain and keep coming back.)

It seems to me like bexytea wants to know if it is something bexytea needs to work on, or if the matter will care for itself. The image says the jun zi has work to do. So, the corruption doesn't clear itself, generally speaking.

And as Trojina said, the question is important to know to be able to answer it.
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
19,923
Reaction score
208
In 18 the corruption is Present.
But if you cast18 about a future event that does not mean corruption is present now in your life or ever will be. 18 is an answer to you about something and if that something will never be then you have an answer about corruption but it is not present in your life at this time.


What if I start smoking again?
18 unchanging.
Corruption will be Present if you do that.
(you'll poison and diminish yourself)
If you say something 'will be' present then it is not present right now and may never be unless certain things occur .Since what is not occurring now is not present the corruption in the matter we receive 18 about may not be happening right now. If I say it will rain tomorrow if the clouds go a certain way is not to say it is raining right now.

I think you are using the word 'present' in a different sense to how I mean. I'm talking about it as a tense as in past/present/future and you mean present as just existing there/being present. If it hasn't happened and never will then it is not happening in the present. Anyway that is not how I meant my smoking example. Obviously most of the time we will be dealing with the present, will see where the toxicity lies.....but bexytea is asking something more subtle I think

What I am asking I guess is - Is it the arrival of toxicity or the detoxifying of corruption/worms/toxicity? Or can it mean both, or either, depending on the question
.

I understand the question as asking is 18 in an answer referring to something becoming corrupt or is it referring to the remedying of what is corrupted. It can be either/both depending on the question.
She is actually asking about the sequence of events. She is asking if 18 can be the arrival of corruption or your attempts to deal with it...so there is a past/present/future all wrapped up in 18 and it isn't always at all clear where one is with it. It might be a case of something toxic developing in your life, might show you dealing with it, correcting it...but there is a sequence of events.

18 might show me buying a bad apple or me taking the bad apple back to get a good one. I think one can, in one's question be at different points along the line and I think that is what she is asking. You could say, as is often the case, the corrupt situation and it's remedy exist together. I buy a bad apple and I return it. But sometimes depending on the question, 18 as an answer can just show you 'bad apple' or other times, again depending on context and question, remedial action. If the apple is rotten I may just decide not to eat it, let it be, not want this 18 thing, rather than seek to put it right (not that you can put a bad apple right exactly).
 

moss elk

visitor
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
2,311
Reaction score
91
We aren't saying anything different from each other Trojina.

What I was picking up on was a sense that bexytea wondered: Do I need to do something about this 18 or just let it go on....

Maybe bexytea will clarify.
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
19,923
Reaction score
208
Yes. In practise I often share bexytea's difficulty with 18 answers.
 

cjgait

visitor
Joined
Sep 29, 2006
Messages
276
Reaction score
0
A draft of the judgment text for 18 from my book Zhou Yi Dao, Living the Yi Jing (the book included the Chinese but that doesn't seem to work on this board):


Hexagram 18

Old text:

Corruption. Great sacrifice. Beneficial to cross the great stream. Three days before the Jia day, Three days after the Jia day.

New text:

Corruption. Great success. Beneficial to cross the great stream. Three days before the Jia day, Three days after the Jia day.

Kong Zi once said: "While a man's father is alive, look at the bent of his will; when his father is dead, look at his conduct. If for three years he does not alter from the way of his father, he may be called filial." Analects 1:11

The inference is that after that three years of mourning he CAN begin to alter those ways, if needed. In physical things we get the cards we are dealt and have to make the most of them. As one old country doctor put it: The best way to have a long, healthy life is to be very careful who you choose as parents.

The Jia day represented the first celestial stem of the Chinese calendar. It shows a time at the start of an enterprise, when a dynasty is established or a new household is set up. It is very important to time such an event correctly, not just arbitrarily pick a date.

The term Gu was also used to describe a poison. Several poisonous creatures were enclosed in a jar for a long period until one had overcome and consumed the others. The venom of that ‘evolved’ vermin was used as a poison.

An interesting variant text of this hexagram is found in the Zuo Traditions of the Spring and Autumn Annals (Schaberg et al., 2016). In the commentary for the Duke Xi, 15.4a we find:

“Diviner Tufu divined with milfoil about this, and the result was auspicious: “Upon crossing the Yellow River, the chariot of the prince will break down.” The Liege of Qin questioned him about this, and the diviner responded, “This is greatly auspicious. After defeating them three times, you are sure to capture the Jin ruler. The hexagram encounter was Pest (18), which says,

A thousand chariots depart three times,
Among those who are left after the three departures,
One captures the male fox.

The fox is a ‘pest’ and surely signifies their ruler. The lower trigram of ‘Pest’ is ‘Wind’; the upper, ‘Mountain,’ The year being now in autumn, we will knock down their fruit and seize their timber. That is how we will prevail. If the fruit falls and the timber is lost, what would one expect but defeat?”
 

Freedda

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Nov 16, 2016
Messages
1,615
Reaction score
136
18 means the corruption is present .... the advice of 18 is for you (or someone) to fix it, it doesn't fix itself.
generally speaking.
I would amend this slightly by asking, when is corruption not present? I don't see it has having much to do with the comings and goings of corruption, or decay, or demons, or whatever ... but how to address it wherever you find it. After all, isn't seeking to end greed, hatred and delusion -- the heart/mind of the Buddha's teachings -- good advice any time?

Regards, David.
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,101
Reaction score
1
...
Some translations indicate "Work on what has been spoiled" in the context of processing, dispelling, banishing and healing from these influences, where some just indicate that the toxicity itself is there.

So I would ask folks what their opinion is, and if you think it is relative (as are many other things in Chinese thought systems) to the context of the question. Also I would ask those who have the mystical powers of translation =) to please shed some light on this curious hexagram.

Also this link may be of some interest as it covers the history of Gu syndrome as well as explaining how and what it treats in the context of disease.

https://www.biroco.com/yijing/Gu_syndrome.pdf
...
Hi, Bexytea:

Don't worry for the toxicity being present or not. In some degree TOXICITY / CORRUPTION is present EVERYWHERE. An we must manage ourselves with that fact.

Of course that all reading depends on the context of the consult an the Changes has not only one but many answers to give for a case.

About the GU SYNDROME:
... a desease known as gu ... is caused by «approaching the woman's chamber (jin4 nü3 shi4 近女室) excessively... » (1)

Source: Sex in the Yellow's Emperor Basic Questions, page 165.
by Jessieca Leo
Available in Google Books
I believe that one of the meanings of H.18 is LOVE MAGIC, which is not always bad. It can affect both women and men with strange results.

Maybe that's the reason why H.18 in general is very good.

As soon as possible I will post more about GU and a literal translation with glosses of the hexagram an its lines. (2)

All the best,

Charly
____________________________
(1) Literally NEARING THE LADY'S ROOM. We can imagine what for.
Say, making love too much can be fatal for men. I wonder if women do not suffer LOVESICKNESS.

(2) Meanwhile can see: Gu, a Charmed Love Story
http://www.twrglobal.com/en/OcBtmqYDh-GU
Gu_Charmed_Love_Story.jpg
In the source page there is a tube that you can watch​

On the picture can see the TREE (aka WIND) below the MOUNTAIN and an HOLOGRAPHIC PICTURE of the traditional character for GU with its THREE BUGS served on a DISH. It can be deciphered as «triple bug, a bug three times bigger than the normal, served at the table for being eaten».
I'm affraid it be almost obscene.

Ch.
 
Last edited:

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,101
Reaction score
1
More about 《蛊》Gu:


«Gu» was an ancient spell practiced by the girls in the Southern China Mountains to secure their lover's fidelity. One girl, desperate for love, decides to bring this forbidden art back to life…
Source: http://www.mask9.com/node/164677
Ch.
 
Last edited:

rosada

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
7,132
Reaction score
141
Einstein once said something like "a problem cannot be solved on the level at which it manifests."
It's interesting that hexagram 18 is full of references to the father and the mother as if to say one works on what has been spoiled by going to a higher level, crossing the river and contacting the ancestors, finding out where this manifestation started from and correcting the original idea that led to the current situation.

And how does one do this? I note that hex. 17 advises that at nightfall the superior man goes to sleep. Could 18 be a reference to what happens next - how much healing happens - how much work on what has been spoiled happens when we sleep? Perhaps 18 is advising a great deal of problem solving can be accomplished by praying to our father who art in heaven before going to bed. How often we then find the problem clears up over night or a solution comes to our minds first thing in the morning!
 
Last edited:

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top