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Hexagram 19 from Confucian perspective

tuckchang

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In Chinese culture the approach of Lin (臨) is usually taken for an action which is from an honored position or a higher position. The hexagram Lin is a scene that the masculine lines, the superior or large ones, are gradually ascending and approaching the feminine lines, the inferior and small ones. From the prospective in viewing its line texts, it also refers to those above, i.e. the lines of the upper trigram, approaching those below, the lines of the bottom trigram. Additionally Lin (臨) is very often linked up with ‘bravely facing challenges’, as femininity of the hexagram Lin is still the majority; on the other hand its changed hexagram, Dun (hexagram 33), signifies to retreat and escape.

The hexagram Li possesses an enlarged image of the trigram Zhen (quake, the thunder); Zhen is the eldest son who inherits the long-standing malpractices left over from his parents, and to whom legitimacy is entailed, which signifies the sovereign descending to the world after Gu (18) having been removed. The approach of the hexagram Lin can be also paraphrased as supervision and management from the viewpoint of the one above ruling the one below, nowadays in terms of democracy, to lead and serve the people. It is quoted from Tuan Zhuan as saying: Misfortune will come in the eighth month; this won’t be long before it is overpowered. This proves an old Chinese saying: the will of the people is like water; it can lift the boat but also overwhelm the boat, especially those below, lines 1 and 2, of the hexagram Lin are masculine.

Thus, Lin, great and smooth progress; it is advantageous (or appropriate) to persist; misfortune will come in the eighth month. Misfortune in the eighth month can be also interpreted as misfortune in August (of the moon calendar), as once the hexagram Lin is reversed or reaches the end, the hexagram will become hexagram 20, Guan: those above to present a model (for those below to follow), which represents August and implies a review or trial on the performances of those above.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
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rosada

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Thank you for these explanations, Tuck.

I think the "misfortune in the eighth month" bit has always caused confusion. It makes sense that after the superior man has been "inexhaustible in his will to teach" (Wilhelm), there would be a test at the end of the course.
Or you mention the water could rise up and overwhelm the boat so this could also indicate students stuck in a classroom listening to some pedantic teacher droning on will rise up and stage a rebellion.
Would you assign a specific line to the eighth month warning? One might assume it would be the last lines but they all are positive. Maybe 19.3? It being the top of the lower trigram could it be the masses rising up and saying, "Come on, get on with it!"

Hmm..as I write this out I have the lyrics of Show Me Now from My Fair Lady running through my head: "Words, words, words, first from him now from you, is that all you blighters can do?...Don't talk of Love, lasting through time, make me no undying vows, show me now!"

-rosada
 
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charly

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...
I think the "misfortune in the eighth month" bit has always caused confusion...

Hmm..as I write this out I have the lyrics of Show Me Now from My Fair Lady running through my head: "Words, words, words, first from him now from you, is that all you blighters can do?...Don't talk of Love, lasting through time, make me no undying vows, show me now!"

-rosada
Hi, Rosada:

I always wondered about the ominous 8th month. Seeing the lines of H.19 I believe that the MISFORTUNE cannot be absolute:

19.1: Lucky
19.2: Lucky and no without profit
19.3: No wrong
19.4: No wrong
19.5: Lucky
19.6: Lucky and no wrong



lin2: to look down /to overlook / to visit / to come /to arrive / to aproach, depicts an EYE meaning MINISTER of the KING at the left and MAN bent over THREE MOUTHS, meaning, I believe the FAMILY of the COMMONER.

It's a picture of the KING approaching the PEOPLE through the visit / inspection of his MINISTER. He verifies the conditions of life of the subdits and defend them against possible abuse of local aristocracy.

BUT THE VISIT OF THE MINISTER DON'T LAST FOREVER, the commoners return to be held, exposed to abuses of local authorities.

Paraphrasing W/B I've translated H.19 so:



lin2
COMING
[TO JOIN PEOPLE]
Knowing people.

yuan2 heng1
MAIN CELEBRATION
Great Feast

li4 zhen1
PROFITABLE OMEN
Not only appropriate but also profitable.

zhi4 yu2 ba1 yue4
COMING AT [THE] EIGHT MONTH
But, after a given time,

you3 xiong1
THERE WILL HAVE MISFORTUNE.
Fortune changes


I'm thinking tha's maybe hard not to associate the warning on the eighth moon with the nine moons of human pregnancy.

Yours,


Charly

__________________________
(1) P.D.:
Rick Sears needs a little help for continuing with his labour of 20 years.

Source: http://www.chineseetymology.org/

Ch.
 
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sooo

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The approach of the hexagram Lin can be also paraphrased as supervision and management from the viewpoint of the one above ruling the one below, nowadays in terms of democracy, to lead and serve the people.
Tuck, nothing personal, but I think your association between ruler-ship from above as a method of serving the people is not representative of the meaning of democracy; nor can I equate it to Confucianism, which I understand to be closer to merit-ism than authoritarianism.

democracy: A political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them.

Further, I think a ruler is someone who puts the plow to his own landscape. The eight months brings misfortune only if someone relies on something beside themselves to grow and sow a harvest, before winter arrives. Even one day or cold night too late meets with misfortune.
 

tuckchang

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Would you assign a specific line to the eighth month warning? One might assume it would be the last lines but they all are positive. Maybe 19.3? It being the top of the lower trigram could it be the masses rising up and saying, "Come on, get on with it!"

-rosada
In my opinion the norm of Lin, the big one approaching the small one as well as the one above approaching the one below, is appropriately carried out from start to finish at every line step of hexagram 20 as the word of Lin (臨) exists in every line text, thus all the lines are teeming with fortune and no calamity.

The fact is that the hexagram text is provided with a warning of misfortune in the 8th month. Is the hexagram Lin doomed to end with some kind of misfortune?

From the perspective of the natural rule of the mutual increase and decrease between masculinity and femininity, the internal hexagram of Lin is Fu (24), wherein masculinity starts to recover; the masculinity, the large one, of the hexagram Lin continues to expand and approach femininity, the small one. After eight steps the hexagram will arrive at Pi: blockage and stagnation (12). However, before it reaches Pi, it will experience the hexagram Dun (33), the changed hexagram of Lin, wherein femininity, the villain or evil, starts prevailing, and Dun suggests retreat.

According to the commentary on the small image, i.e. the line performance, I would like to submit followings of how the lines behave in accordance with the norm of Lin for your reference. They are a bit moral teaching but can't help :D since it is my way to understand what those texts intend to tell me and why.

Lines 1 and 2 are of telepathic approach (咸臨, 咸xian2, the name of hexagram 31, is derived from 感 (the feeling) but without 心 (the heart), i.e. an unintentional feeling, I say: telepathy); telepathy is a reaction between masculinity and femininity, and it here mainly refers to the masculine as the big one approaching the feminine as the small one.

The masculine line 1 approaches the feminine line 4 by virtue of righteousness instead of bully, as it stays at its right position. The masculine line 2 approaches the feminine line 5, like a talented and reliable courtier serving a lenient but dignified king; although this is the big one approaching the small one, contrarily line 2 behaves moderately, i.e. it doesn’t count on its largeness but the principle of moderation as it stays at the middle position of the bottom trigram. Thus, line 1: telepathic Lin (approach); it is auspicious to persist (in acting according to righteousness), and line 2: telepathic Lin (approach not in accordance with largeness), auspiciousness and nothing unfavorable.

The feminine line 3, the representative line of the bottom trigram Dui: joy and the mouth, stays at the bottom trigram and has no correlation. As it is neither the one above nor the one big, its sweet talk receives no response; thus, sweet Lin (approach), nothing is favorable. On the other hand, it rides on masculine lines 1 and 2, and stands in the way of their moving upward; it becomes worried as the masculine is large. Now that (one) has already worried about this, (there is) no calamity (or fault), signifying if line 3 can reflect upon itself due to its worry, and changes to the masculine, the hexagram will become Tai: a smooth & unobstructed, harmonious & peaceful state (11).

Lines 4, 5 and 6 are those above that approach those below of the bottom trigram. Line 4 stays next to the bottom trigram and correlates with line 1, the bottom line and the commoner; thus it has close contact with those below and very cordially approaches them; it is intimate Lin (approach), (with) no calamity (or fault) is taken for granted, as it acts righteously, i.e. it stays at its right position and acts according to what is right (even though it closely condescends to those below). The feminine line 5 at the king’s position intelligently approaches those below and employs the masculine (i.e. talented and reliable) lines 2, and it acts at the core position and according to the principle of moderation (although it is feminine); thus, it is intelligent Lin (approach), and it is the appropriateness of the king; auspiciousness. Even though there is no link, line 6 always remains honest and reliable in approaching those below, lines 1 and 2, like the one above untiringly condescending to the virtuous persons; thus, honest & reliable Lin (approach), auspiciousness and no calamity (or fault), as great virtue won’t miss anything which requires its reception, and nothing will withstand being cultivated by the long approach and influence of great virtue.
Remarks: 至zhi4 of 19.4: 至臨 (intimate Lin) originally means ‘to come from a higher position and arrive at a lower position', signifying the one above condescending to the one below, in other word, to be close to and get friendly with the one below.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
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rosada

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Thank you very much for writing this all out Tuck!
Thinking more about the calamity predicted in the eighth month. Charly mentioned that perhaps this would be some reference to the eighth month of gestation. That makes a lot of sense both literally and symbolically. When a woman reaches the eighth month of a pregnancy she typically becomes particularly careful so as to not initiate a premature birth. Or perhaps the warning is symbolic, suggesting the idea that life is short, we thought we had nine months but it turns out we have only eight.

As the hexagram following is 20.View, perhaps the 8th month warning is that when one does move up into higher circles they will see things from an entirely different perspective than they did before they got involved. Like you see your parents from a totally different perspective after you have a child yourself.
--

Just found notes on a reading I did several years ago. At the time I couldn't make any sense out of it and hadn't reflected on this it again until today. Certainly gives one further thoughts about the warning...

My son had bought a house in New Orleans and was in the process of renovating it with the intention of opening a bed and breakfast. I had asked, "How to make this project a success?" I received 19.2.4 > 51.

19.2 Joint approach, good fortune. Everything furthers.
Wilhelm notes, "everything earthly is transitory."

19.4. Complete approach. No blame.
The day he completed the renovation and had everything in order including insurance...

51. Shock.
Katrina hit.

Because he had insurance he actually came out ahead but it certainly wasn't the "success" he had been aiming for.
Maybe 19 predicts not misfortune but a Surprise Ending!

rosada
 
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charly

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Thank you very much for writing this all out Tuck!
Thinking more about the calamity predicted in the eighth month. Charly mentioned that perhaps this would be some reference to the eighth month of gestation. That makes a lot of sense both literally and symbolically. When a woman reaches the eighth month of a pregnancy she typically becomes particularly careful so as to not initiate a premature birth. Or perhaps the warning is symbolic, suggesting the idea that life is short, we thought we had nine months but it turns out we have only eight.
Hi, Rosada:

If you look in my former post, in the chinese text there is a particle that changes the sense with respect to the Wilhelm/Baynes translation:

The received text says:
至 zhi4 于 yu2 八 ba1 月 yue4
COMING AT EIGHT MONTH

Some authors interprete coming the eighth month or coming august, but why to use the word yu=at/to?

I understand that sometimes the word LIN is used meaning just the moment when an event is for happening.

Coming a child at the 8th month prospects pretty bad.
The advice would be DON'T HURRY or things can turn against. (1)


My son had bought a house in New Orleans and was in the process of renovating it with the intention of opening a bed and breakfast. I had asked, "How to make this project a success?" I received 19.2.4 > 51.

19.2 Joint approach, good fortune. Everything furthers.
Wilhelm notes, "everything earthly is transitory."
xian2: all / full /
lin2: to come / to arrive / to be (just) about to / just before /
ji2: lucky / fortunate /

wu2: without / not / no / avoid /
bu4: (negative prefix) / not / no /
li4: advantage / benefit / profit / sharp /

FULL COMING [TO JOIN]. FORTUNATE.
Full contact, strongly beaten, but lucky.

About the double negation, the more literal might be:

NO UNPROFITABLE.
Not a promise of great success, but a promise of some profit.
It might be applied admiratively: NO BAD! NO FEW! if speaking of a capture, not of a promise.

19.4. Complete approach. No blame.
The day he completed the renovation and had everything in order including insurance...
zhi4: to arrive // the most /
lin2: to come / to arrive / to be (just) about to / just before /
wu2: without / not / no / avoid /
jiu4: blame / to blame / mistake / wrong /

TO ARRIVE COMING. NO BLAME.
Arriving [to a] contact: no wrong.

51. Shock.
Katrina hit.

Because he had insurance he actually came out ahead but it certainly wasn't the "success" he had been aiming for.
...
Whose was the hand that led him to the insurance agency?
Whose was the han that send Katrina?

THE HAND OF CHANGE.

Who made the promise of great success?
NOT THE CHANGE, OF COURSE.


Yours,

Charly


______________________
(1) An X-ray: A PICTURE THAT ADVANCES (Wimpy)
Don't advance too much.
Ch.
 

rodaki

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a couple of other things that may make sense in terms of the 8th month:

-Persephone, queen of the Underworld and daughter of Demeter, goddess of agriculture rises each year and brings to her mother joy which makes the lands prosper-the time for farming arrives. After 8 months though she has to return to Hades causing wintertime to arrive

-the story of the ant and the grasshopper, again misfortune strikes so better be prepared
 

anemos

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19.1: Lucky
19.2: Lucky and no without profit
19.3: No wrong
19.4: No wrong
19.5: Lucky
19.6: Lucky and no wrong


Ch.

that is really interesting. Never noticed before. Says a lot about the nature of 19.

Just as the lake is inexhaustible in depth, so the sage is inexhaustible in his
readiness to teach mankind, and just as the earth is boundlessly wide,
sustaining and caring for all creatures on it, so the sage sustains and cares for
all people and excludes no part of humanity.
Tui seems to give life to Earth, gives feelings. What a nice guideline for managers ,parents, rulers, etc. The king leaves its throne and goes where he should be, down there.

from LiSe
LIN: The character is composed of a man bending over (1), with a vertical eye (2): a slave, vassal or officer (GSR 377). Bending makes your eye vertical.
 

tuckchang

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Hi Rosada,

Thanks for sharing your experience. I do agree with you and admire what Charly is doing, word by word, and makes use of a life example.
Very often A Chinese will paraphrase an ancient Chinese writing completely differently from what B Chinese does, and the comprehension of a I Ching text can be for granted completely different from A person to B person due to different life experiences and …....

My first I Ching class was to study the basics of hexagram; therefore I always interpret the text from its images, the line performance and so on; of course, many Chinese do the interpretation as Charly does.

To me, the Lin of hexagram 19 means the two Yang lines, lines 1 and 2, approaching four Yin lines above. Yang recovers at Hex 24, it reaches position 2 at the hexagram Lin and will continue to ascend and expand. Hex 11 is the even point and Da Guo of Hex 28 literally means large excess (i.e. Yang is excessive), and indeed Yang and Yin will come to a showdown at Hex 23. Hex 12, Pi, signifies blockage and stagnation in Chinese culture and is 8 steps from Lin. Or it can be understood: the hexagram Lin represents December, while Pi is July, eight months from December.

八月 (the eighth month) can be also interpreted as August and Guan of Hex 20 is an image that those Yin lines below look up at the two Yang lines on top. Therefore according to Tuan Zhuan, the approach of Lin should be: the Yang line 2 in the middle of Dui (joy) correlates with the Yin line 5, the representative line of Kun (submissiveness) and move toward to position 5 (where is right to it). While masculinity is approaching femininity, it is with joy and responded by submissiveness, as well as aims for righteousness (the right position for masculinity). Therefore the commentary on the small image always mentions righteousness and the principle of moderation during approaching.

To me, the eighth month or August is just a guide to tell me: do not count on one’s largeness and do not overdo it.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
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tuckchang

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Hi Dear Charly,

I am awaiting you. :D

咸xian2 of咸臨 can not be interpreted as: all or full .
It is normal that your dictionary only provides you with these two common explanations.
Wilhelm translated 咸, the name of Hex 31, as influence (wooing) but I think better to call it telepathy as it is between the masculine and the feminine without physical contact, and it is before Hex 32, the marriage. 19.1 is a telepathic approach from the masculine line 1 to the feminine line 4, this must be done by heart instead of force.

至zhi4 of 至臨 does means: to arrive and it is from a higher position to a lower position, like line 4 approaching line 1. Due to its proximity to the bottom trigram, such approach is taken for a close and friendly action to those below, i.e. a people loving and intimate approach. Most likely sooo won’t agree at this, but Confucianism does promote so called benevolent policy to the people, which is the way to avoid misfortune in August of Hex 20, i.e. losing their votes.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
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charly

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that is really interesting. Never noticed before. Says a lot about the nature of 19.
...
Tui seems to give life to Earth, gives feelings. What a nice guideline for managers ,parents, rulers, etc. The king leaves its throne and goes where he should be, down there.

from LiSe
Hi, María:

Nice of course, although I don't trust too much in that angelical kings. I believe that kings didn't leave the throne very often. They used to send a minister or an officer.

In the character LIN I see the chain of CARE or the chain of VIGILANCE.

The commoner takes care of this family, the minister takes care of the commoner, the king takes care of the minister. The king is out of the character but, I believe, implicit, because the minister is minister of a king.

The chain follows so: the heaven takes care of the king, if the king goes astray the heaven replaces all the dynasty. Of course, heavens use to be tolerant with the majority of the kings, they are partners.

All the best,

Charly
 

charly

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a couple of other things that may make sense in terms of the 8th month:

-Persephone, queen of the Underworld and daughter of Demeter, goddess of agriculture rises each year and brings to her mother joy which makes the lands prosper-the time for farming arrives. After 8 months though she has to return to Hades causing wintertime to arrive

-the story of the ant and the grasshopper, again misfortune strikes so better be prepared
Hi, Dora:

Maybe you believe that the upper trigram EARTH is the representative of DEMETER and lower trigram DUI the representative of PERSEPHONE?

Good idea, the cycle of vegetal life always was associated to de cycle of human life.

LIN can be translated as ADVENT maybe with the same religious sense.

Upper EARTH, generosity, condescending with lower POND, joy, pleasure.

Pleasure at the service of reproduction. Low drives at the service of high goals.

I continue thinking that H.19 has to do with CHILDBIRTH and its conditions. H.19 has to do with LOVE.

Yours,

Charly

P.D.
I love the folkstories with animals.
Ch.
 

charly

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Hi Dear Charly,

I am awaiting you. :D

咸xian2 of咸臨 can not be interpreted as: all or full .
It is normal that your dictionary only provides you with these two common explanations.
Wilhelm translated 咸, the name of Hex 31, as influence (wooing) but I think better to call it telepathy as it is between the masculine and the feminine without physical contact, and it is before Hex 32, the marriage. 19.1 is a telepathic approach from the masculine line 1 to the feminine line 4, this must be done by heart instead of force.

至zhi4 of 至臨 does means: to arrive and it is from a higher position to a lower position, like line 4 approaching line 1. Due to its proximity to the bottom trigram, such approach is taken for a close and friendly action to those below, i.e. a people loving and intimate approach. Most likely sooo won’t agree at this, but Confucianism does promote so called benevolent policy to the people, which is the way to avoid misfortune in August of Hex 20, i.e. losing their votes.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com
Thanks, Tuck:

I had a response for a previous post of you, but I will let it for tomorrow.

I didn't find FULL at any dictionary, although I use to consult four or five, maybe not the better but the most affordable.

It was a reminiscense but I don't remember where I read it. I believe that it fits well with Rosada's consult.

It's not strange that Wilhelm/Baynes translated WOOING, both had the brain full of sexual images that permeated not only their commentaries but even their translations. If you highlight the text of W/B you will see it with your own eyes.

Wilhelm and Baynes were friends of Jung, and jungians are so: hidden sexomaniacs. Be said with all my affection.

"至zhi4 of 至臨 does means: to arrive and it is from a higher position to a lower position," as is depicted by the bone character where an ARROW gets his TARGET in the SOIL.

The archer is shooting the eart! A lost arrow?

Not, I believe, but a symbol of hierogamy rites. Kings were fond of such performances and is well know the association of arrows and shooting with sex and marriage.

Please, wait a bit, I have more.


Yours,

Charly

P.D.
"masculine and the feminine without physical contact" If you say that it's possible...
Ch.
 

anemos

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Hi, María:

Nice of course, although I don't trust too much in that angelical kings. I believe that kings didn't leave the throne very often. They used to send a minister or an officer.
of course !:)

what I said is influenced by a old icon called "our Lady of Perpetual Help" which is very popular here in Greece under the name Theotokos of the passion.
 

rodaki

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Hi, Dora:

Maybe you believe that the upper trigram EARTH is the representative of DEMETER and lower trigram DUI the representative of PERSEPHONE?

Good idea, the cycle of vegetal life always was associated to de cycle of human life.

LIN can be translated as ADVENT maybe with the same religious sense.

Upper EARTH, generosity, condescending with lower POND, joy, pleasure.

Pleasure at the service of reproduction. Low drives at the service of high goals.

I continue thinking that H.19 has to do with CHILDBIRTH and its conditions. H.19 has to do with LOVE.

Yours,

Charly

P.D.
I love the folkstories with animals.
Ch.

hi Charly,

the meaning of the trigrams was exactly what I was thinking of, glad you like it :)

I too believe that 19 is about pregnancy and new circles of life and I loved that Tuck's first post brought to our attention how this is made out of the doubling of Zhen, the first son, the heir, the rejuvenating energy . . . maybe the warning is similar to that of 51's? don't drop the chalice, don't let the danger overwhelm you, keep on with your work despite the shock?

Aside form that though, I also think that this is the yin way of getting-in-charge and for that it carries within it an earthy knowledge of the cycle of things -hence the warning on the 8th month . . and that for me, is one of the most tender and wise things a mother -or, maybe better still, a grandmother- can say to those under her wings: seize the day, go out to the world but beware that sorrow follows joy -let none of the two come before its time . . . imagine what happens when they fail to do so and get stuck in the fears of the dangers of the world . . young ones grow up in fear and might miss their moments afraid of what may come (see end of post)

And I find it's also a great thing to say to our selves at every new endeavor that seems shaky: don't let the worries of yesterday or tomorrow hold you back, live it as much as it lasts, but be prepared for the dark days . . .

Another thing that I find extraordinary about this hex is related to the meaning I've read in a thread here (sorry can't find it now) that R. Kunst gives to its character: the meaning of 'mourning' as I find that that also relates to bringing new life . .
As people have started to admit openly in recent years, pregnancies are very intense times for the female body and psyche and can involve a 'mourning' period for the mother, in the form of post-natal depression and other psychological symptoms . . I think women in the older days knew very well about this and other dangers of pregnancies but passed this knowledge to their daughters in subtle ways so as not to deter or scare them . . . a wise lesson in taking the good with the bad (or vice versa)

All this reminds me of a wish we give to people who've just lost someone dear to them, along with condolences we wish 'Life to you!' as in 'life to the living!' . . as if to soften the pain of loss by reminding them not to lose their life in grief. Keeping in mind that lake is not just about joy but about strong emotion, I find it very similar to the warning of the 8th month: 'Live out the joy but don't forget that all good things end/ Honor your grief but don't get stuck in the past'

. . what do you think?


_______________________________

Even some Gaulois had trouble with this despite their druid's filter:

source
 

charly

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Hi Rosada,

Thanks for sharing your experience. I do agree with you and admire what Charly is doing, word by word, and makes use of a life example.
Very often A Chinese will paraphrase an ancient Chinese writing completely differently from what B Chinese does, and the comprehension of a I Ching text can be for granted completely different from A person to B person due to different life experiences and …....

My first I Ching class was to study the basics of hexagram; therefore I always interpret the text from its images, the line performance and so on; of course, many Chinese do the interpretation as Charly does.
...
Thanks, Tuck:

After reading your kind concepts I'm feeling better with my work.

I understand that you begin with the images and the lines while I begin with the received text. It's reasonable that both arrive to different conclusions.

Even more you are speaking from a philosophical point of view, I interpret my reading associating the text with the context of concrete consults or in relation with some much general folklore.

That's why it's not my intention to polemize with you althoug I would like much more you apports if less related with male superiority, female submissiveness, political correctness and the like. But nobody's perfect.

Besides the idiomatic weakness of not being chinese I must recognize another: I'm not able for following your line engineering along all its complexity.

That said, I believe that both belong to the community of Changes amateurs and that we must have more things in common than the things about we don't agree.


Yours,

Charly
 

tuckchang

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Hi Charly,

As I said, my first I Ching lesson was to study the basics of hexagram. In fact most of I Ching schools here commence with the basic study of the hexagram. I personally believe that the hexagram originally existed without the text and the texts of Zhou Yi were derived from images and line performances; therefore to analyze them is the way to attain the true significance of the text.

There are indeed lots of interpretations without involvement of the image and the line performance, and it is one of the reasons that there are so many different interpretations available. Very often those hardly provide the cause and effect of what is said in the text and the worse thing is the paraphrase going around and around without the key point.

Yin and Yang are two opposite but symbiotic subjects; they are brightness and darkness in the sky, and exist on the earth in the form of solidity/emptiness, largeness/ smallness, stiffness (or rigidity) and strength/softness (or tenderness) and weakness, as well as the male/ the female and the gentleman/the villain. Righteousness and the principle of moderation are the way recommended for their association. The reader doesn’t need to like the morale teaching approach like what I am doing but can make use of the obtained conclusion of my interpretation.

Zhou Yi was written approx. three thousand years ago, wherein the society did exist with the masculinity representing superiority, as well as the king and the courtier …... Additionally the I Ching is regarded as 經jing like 聖(sheng4: holy)經, the Bible, because it is a philosophy of life to Chinese. Therefore it is paraphrased according to the different roles that people play at each level in that society and the era of that hexagram. Although it is based on an old society, it depends on how we utilize the spirit of each hexagram and its text, and adopt it for our life today.

For the example of Rosada’s case, Kun, the name of Hex 2, according to Shuo Gua, is annotated as submissiveness like the earth sustaining the sky, and like Yin submissive to Yang, and what Hex 2 suggests is ‘to be the follower and assistant (i.e. the employee) instead of the leader and founder (the employer, i.e. the investor)'. Hex 19 means ‘can do it but don’t count on the largeness (which is that the Yang line, the one approaching the Ying line, possesses, i.e. success). Hex 19.1 must do it righteously (i.e. according to the norm of Hex 19 as mentioned above) . …… Although our reading method and our understanding of the text are different (In China, usually we only read either Hex 19, or Hex 2, or Hex 19.1, or Hex 19.2; even some people might also read others but just for side evidence), the answer or the result is similar to her experience.

Dear Charly, you don’t have to agree with me or accept my interpretation. But I have to say, most of my interpretations are according to the books made by a professor in China who passed away at the age of 99 and had devoted his entire life to the I Ching, and had studied, and made comparison among, various argumentations, and according to the principle of the book, 周易集註彙編 (Zhou Yi Ji Zhu Hui Bian: the compilation of Zhou Yi annotations made by the ancient masters from the perspective of image and line performance) which was written in the Qing dynasty, and from the class held by a I Ching master in Taiwan who was the I Ching teacher of the former President of Taiwan and who are trying to convert the I Ching for the modern business operation or company management, of course, as well as my own comprehension after years study.

I do not mean what I interpret is correct, and actually I am still making corrections on my website, but what I am trying to do is to make a presentation to the western world what is the I Ching and the I Ching study usually Chinese mean.

Best regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com
 
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sooo

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Most likely sooo won’t agree at this, but Confucianism does promote so called benevolent policy to the people..
Oh, but I do! I'm no Confucian expert (one of the reasons I appreciate your contributions), but I've always perceived the ultimate goal of Confucius' teaching being to serve the people through exemplary leadership.

What I was pointing out was the difference between the ideological concepts of Confucianism and Democracy. Though I can see where one may slide into the other, merit-ism is not the same as entitlement, though ideally, they should be. :bows:
 

charly

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...

Zhou Yi was written approx. three thousand years ago, wherein the society did exist with the masculinity representing superiority, as well as the king and the courtier …... Additionally the I Ching is regarded as 經jing like 聖(sheng4: holy)經, the Bible, because it is a philosophy of life to Chinese. Therefore it is paraphrased according to the different roles that people play at each level in that society and the era of that hexagram. Although it is based on an old society, it depends on how we utilize the spirit of each hexagram and its text, and adopt it for our life today.
I know. But I believe that to put the interpretation in historical context is not the same that make it compliant with the dominant ideology of that times.

That's the reason why I put enphasis in the more common meanings of the words. Ancient texts have been often resignified according to dominant ideologies without changing the literal text way repeated interpretation, way translation or way modernization.

I believe that an almost literal translation is necessary before to do a more fluent version.

More often ancient texts have remnants of earlier cultures whose memory results a little uncomfortable for later ideologies.

It happened with the Bible, with the Odes...

Shamans always were strange people. Diviners were not kings and often were women. I believe that the Changes survived first for its profitability for diviners.

Diviners were always in risk of losing the head. They were in close contact with rulers and nobles whose main feature was not always being goodhearted, being generous or intelligent.

Why the Changes has to be 100% compliant with the ideology of its time? Even more, in all times there were alternative ideologies, subcultures, hidden rebels, resentful people.

Why the Changes could not have some hidden messages from that sort of people? Maybe not so hidden.

Probably there was an illiterate yarrow divination prior to the Book of Changes, guided by numbers, lines or words and not by written texts. In that case I believe much probable interpretations in terms of sexuality instead of morality.

Dear Charly, you don’t have to agree with me or accept my interpretation. But I have to say, most of my interpretations are according to the books made by a professor in China who passed away at the age of 99 and had devoted his entire life to the I Ching, and had studied, and made comparison among, various argumentations, and according to the principle of the book, 周易集註彙編 (Zhou Yi Ji Zhu Hui Bian: the compilation of Zhou Yi annotations made by the ancient masters from the perspective of image and line performance) which was written in the Qing dynasty, and from the class held by a I Ching master in Taiwan who was the I Ching teacher of the former President of Taiwan and who are trying to convert the I Ching for the modern business operation or company management, of course, as well as my own comprehension after years study.

I do not mean what I interpret is correct, and actually I am still making corrections on my website, but what I am trying to do is to make a presentation to the western world what is the I Ching and the I Ching study usually Chinese mean.
I know that you have study much. Glad that you are open to change.

I would like to see you replacing only some words like...


MALE AMBITION instead of MALE SUPERIORITY
FEMALE GENEROSITY instead of FEMALE SUBMISSIVENESS
LOW PEOPLE instead of VILLAINS
TENDER instead of WEAK​

Not exactly these, of course. All replacement should be compliant with Confucian point of view, which is the yours. Don't you dare to try?

Thanks for your attention.

Yours,

Charly
 

diamanda

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What an interesting thread. I'll have to add just a couple of thoughts.

Zhou Yi was written approx. three thousand years ago, wherein the society did exist with the masculinity representing superiority, as well as the king and the courtier
The historical context is invaluable. And yet, I've lost count of how
many times I got, eg, 29:4, or 55:2, related to the internet, and very
clearly so. Or even 55:5. After all these years of using the I Ching and
I'm still amazed in what 'modern' ways it can 'speak'. Much as the context
and traditional translation are strongly needed, the I Ching seems to
also contain lots of weird modern twists and turns, as I'm sure many
others have noticed.

I would like to see you replacing only some words like...
MALE AMBITION instead of MALE SUPERIORITY
FEMALE GENEROSITY instead of FEMALE SUBMISSIVENESS
LOW PEOPLE instead of VILLAINS
TENDER instead of WEAK
And yet, modern as we all may be, there are some elements of human
nature which just cannot be eliminated (at least not yet), and are still
there, very much alive, and very much widespread. On very many
occasions we witness the male/female dichotomy (and element of
superior/submissive), and there are pretty many villains and weak
people too (as well as low or tender people as well, of course).

In my opinion both traditional and modern approaches are very much
needed, and then it's up to each of us to draw conclusions (modern or
not) out of a particular reading (and good luck to us all with that.. lol).
My sincere thanks to Tuck and Charly, and everyone else, for your
inspiring posts.
 

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Dear Diamanda:

Glad to see you writting again.

Of course I don´t believe that all is matter of replacing words, but maybe after doing it, we would be aware that the old words and concepts were not in the received text. In the original only God knows.

The meaning of words is related to the use. Some of it can be used as curse words or not, depending on the intention, the gestures or the context. Philosophers and scribes didn´t use curse words, but I´m sure that diviners did it.

Why not curse words in the Changes? Or why yes instead of not?

About the use of the book, a good translation doesn´t warrant a good use.
A regular translation is not a barrier for a good use. The same, I believe happens with traditional and modern.

I don´t like too much modernist translations. And there are modern translations although traditional, even conservative.

Before all I do appreciate the good intention and the fair use. No matters if true or not. After all things change, nothing lasts for ever, any prediction can be true all the time.

Nobody´s perfect and that´s the good. Diviners less than anybody.

Please, continue connected.

All the best.


Charly
 

tuckchang

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Hi Charly,

I can't understand exactly what is the meaning of the following. Could you please give me an example.

to put the interpretation in historical context is not the same that make it compliant with the dominant ideology of that times.
In my opinion, from the perspective of truly interpreting an ancient article, it is essential to go back to that period of time, stand at the position of the writer and think. Are we trying to seek the true significance of the I Cning or not? It might be difficult to you but it is of less problem to me since those histories are part of my life, and I am trying to do my best and by all means.

I had wondered why a bandit is linked up with the marriage at Hex 3.2 and why the education must be the student looking for the teacher at Hex 4, and then I looked backward and I realized: most likely it was still quite normal at that time one tribe would attack the other and capture young females to be their woman. In the era of difficulty to initiate, to make a breakthrough (i.e. to give birth or be given the birth by Chien and Kun) is the commitment (of the bride) and the mission will be accomplished eventually since after having moved forward ten steps from position 2 of Hex 3, it will arrive at position 5 of the hexagram Meng (4), wherein the ignorant child (is given the birth and) condescends to the teacher for education, since there was no promissory school at that time but various schools of thought such as Confucianism, Taoism and Legalism coexisted …...

Have you ever thought of why the text of Hex 19 said the 8th month (or August) instead of the 7th month (or July)? Why not is it 6th month (or June)?
I also study the text, word by word, but together with the image, the line performance and a holistic view in order to find out the most appropriate translation of each word and the meaning behind them.

In my opinion, one of the reasons that the I Ching can become so great and exists up to now is: each hexagram, each line of a hexagram, each sentence of the text and each word of a sentence are so well organized in such a precise and tight layout; it is a piece of art and a great art.

It is not a matter of whether I dare to make the replacement as suggested by you or not. It is the point that I don’t have that wisdom, since the I Ching is a crystal of thousand people and hundred years.

By the way, up to now what I have been talking about is the study of the I Ching rather than the divination. As of that issue, I will respond to Diamanda’s post later.

Best regards
Tuck
www.iching123.com
 
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sooo

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In my opinion, one of the reasons that the I Ching can become so great and exists up to now is: each hexagram, each line of a hexagram, each sentence of the text and each word of a sentence are so well organized in such a precise and tight layout; it is a piece of art and a great art.
Neither art nor nature are perfectly symmetrical.

Tibetan Lama sweeping away meticulously created symmetry of a sand mandala. The sand pile is traditionally sacrificed to a river, lake or sea. Then, at the appointed time, the monks create another, taking neither loss nor gain to heart.



http://tibet-incense.com/blog/two-sand-mandala-pictures-sets/

I appreciate all you say, Tuck, speaking from a strictly Confucian school of disciple and thought. But outside of that, the black/white strict dualistic thinking leaves me cold, which is why I had to move on and expand from also Wilhelm's Germanic interpretation of the Confucian I Ching interpretation. No disrespect to Confucius intended, but his approach to the IC never was the only one.
 

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Hi Diamanda,

Thanks for your comment.

Indeed, according to my experiences sometimes it is very difficult to see an answer (suited to the question of divination) in the text or the interpretation directly or indirectly, sometimes even no answer. Maybe it is the reason that you felt twisted while you were trying to convert the text or the interpretation into what you were looking for. In fact and in my opinion, this should be the problem that a single text or interpretation can’t cover various and different questions from divination. Maybe there was an answer in the text or the interpretation but it was opposite to what happened later. A local diviner once paraphrased Hex 1.5 as the bad future under the condition of that person and at that moment since the line next is 1.6. I mean, if people believe in divination and believe that there must be an answer; they look around and seek it; it is not common but the hexagram sequence or the line sequence is indeed taken for one of the alternative reading methods for the future (or the past). I am not discussing the accuracy (the accuracy is another big subject) but just how to locate the answer. It involves people’s understanding of the text, enlightenment and many other things, for instance, some people take Hex 1 for a bad omen of marriage or an expected love story since Kun, Hex 2, hasn’t appeared yet, and take Hex 50 (innovation) for the recovery of a sick chlid but the death of an old, sick man (since Din was a ritual vessel in the shrine) .

Some corporations in Taiwan do divine for their big decision. Those corporations provide the I Ching lessen to the employees concerned. The trained task team will divine repeatedly for the same issue from different approaches and study the answers to see whether they are well prepared for the subject and covers all unforeseen risk, and then …….. In my opinion, it is the right way to do divination, good to the self judgment when the objective issue is concerned.

Divination is a very complex subject, especially with involvement of accuracy. It must be treated case by case, sometimes, person by person. A local diviner has converted all the hexagrams into the term of company management and business operation, for instance, Hex 19 and 20, something like giving and to be given from the perspective of a successful leadership, very good conversion from the spirit of these two hexagrams but in my opinion they don’t work with the texts and are limited to one application. Anyway it is a good job and a very difficult job; I believe this took him many years to reach this.

Please kindly excuse me for not possible to talk too much since it is really difficult for me to express myself precisely, and also I might not be right. I hope somehow I reply to your post and all are for reference only.

Best regards
Tuck :bows:
 

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Hi Sooo,

I thank you very much for your comment and I like the way you did. I don’t like argument, but I don’t feel comfortable if you make a change because of the way I have approached. I know what I am doing is different form that of most of you. I always believe that the I Ching or Zhou Yi can be interpreted in different ways. However I still would like to take the opportunity to make the following explanations.

In fact Yin and Yang are the two basic elements of a hexagram. I thought that maybe it is because I use the words of femininity and masculinity, which make you feel a conflict of sex and discrimination. 陰 (Yin) and 陽 (Yang) are two self-explaining characters to Chinese, cover lots of meanings and are less human. I had a long thought of what should be the right English words to use for 陰 and 陽 while I was interpreting the I Ching in English, since Yin and Yang are two words of no life to me and I thought that they might be the same to English speaking people. Additionally because lots of 陰 and 陽 must be put in my interpretation, and masculinity and femininity are much easier for me to express what I intend to say and make the article alive, at least, to me, as well as less difficult for a beginner …... finally I decided to use masculinity and femininity, and I made some description on the first page of my interpretation on my website but I always have a question mark in my mind whether they are the appropriate words. I apologize if this makes you uncomfortable.

Another thing that I would like to explain is: Zhou Yi commences with the hexagram Qian, which is taken for a sign of its leading position and designates it as the sky; its component, Yang, therefore is regarded as to be superior to Yin of Kun, the earth (again a trouble of translation since there is no equivalent word in English culture for 尊zun卑bei). Kun does signify submissiveness; therefore the earth sustains the sky and Yin submits to Yang in Hex 2. However this doesn’t mean that Yin must always be submissive; actually 19.5 is dignified and 19.2 submits to it. ………...In fact Yin and Yang are not always in conflict, most of time it is a good omen when they correlate with each other.

When I was interpreting the I Ching in English, I thought that to introduce how the I Ching is studied is something meaningful to my life after I had struggled only for livings for years, but gradually, more and more I feel the job so difficult like a kid driving a big car due to my English and the cultural difference. I am pleased in doing this because I found out my expression in English much easier than before; maybe some day I will find a solution for all these.

Best regards
Tuck :bows:
 
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sooo

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Hi Tuck,

The terms you use for primal opposites are terms I've been familiar with since the mid 1960's, from Wilhelm/Baynes IC and from Jungian dualistic concepts. So long as I think within the context as I understand it to be intended, I'm comfortable with it. I know in what contextual field the terms Superior and Inferior or Creative/Submissive exist in, I know what to do with them, how to use them and apply them. I have no problem with them, but I do find them lacking in organic warmth, when used alone, or when terms become stridently interpreted. That applies to all schools of thought, as I think you implied earlier.

Wilhelm is still my automatic go-to version, and much of it can be quickly accessed in my head from memory. I believe Wilhelm's IC gets as close to Confucian ideology as most westerners will ever get. By current standards and language, it is horribly politically incorrect, archaic, and repressive toward the female gender. That's not how I interpret it, but it's easy to understand how Superior could be interpreted as good, and Inferior as bad. "Say good, and evil is born", is another thing to consider.

Daoist thought doesn't oppose Confucian thought. They are two different fields, with different laws applying to each. Confucian thought seems organized and idealistic. Absolutes in traditional, unwavering meaning cuts through any trend of a given time.

I can dig all that. I just find it missing the mids, to use a musical tone analogy. The mids are found in other ways, often deeply personal ways, where absolutes blend together with less tangible evidence, but evidence nonetheless.

I really like how Diamanda said it, how both ways are important to us today. You get the highs, the lows, AND the mids. Mids could include personal experience, noted collective experience, a correct understanding of natural, cycles and of sound structure, but a poor understanding of practical application, and so forth. The IC seems to have a large following, many groupies, who chase after the touring bus. Some are very smart, some are dumb but intuitive. There's lots of room, and possibilities of legitimate meaning that can come from structure, but there's also pastel in the earth and sky, not only black or white. A score may be so near perfect as to be played repeatedly the same through centuries, but classical training does not necessarily preclude license to ad-lib on a theme.



Jung really helped me to work with these diametric dynamics as they are integrated into ones own personality. That neutralized any politically incorrect resistance to it. Jung filled in, blended, integrated and personalized both opposites in me. That filled much color into the landscape and gave it further dimension. Work, such as LiSe's, was also a huge revelation to me, to break outside of strict linear structure and meaning, and delve more into the lucid soul of an individual. There is no opposition between them. I accept each on its terms, interpreted as they apply to me and to life in general.

I do not place the Yijing in the center, but among those which surround the center. To quote an interesting phrase (from 1 Cor 14:32): "the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." That means answers are born of questions, which means the student is the master, and the master is the student. Both exist in 4. Anyone who assumes one school only is correct (not only Confucian, but any), is only fooling themselves, and probably not understanding others well either.

But all that aside, I hope you continue sharing your Confucian insight. :bows:
 

diamanda

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Tuck thanks so much for your post, especially for the following two very
enlightening points:

...but just how to locate the answer. It involves people’s understanding of the text, enlightenment and many other things, for instance, some people take Hex 1 for a bad omen of marriage or an expected love story since Kun, Hex 2, hasn’t appeared yet, and take Hex 50 (innovation) for the recovery of a sick chlid but the death of an old, sick man (since Din was a ritual vessel in the shrine)
..........
Divination is a very complex subject, especially with involvement of accuracy. It must be treated case by case, sometimes, person by person.
You put it all in words so nicely. It all is indeed a very complex matter.
And as about accuracy, oh dear, i won't even start on that matter :) :bows:
 

rosada

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Sooo..I think your photo post #24 would be perfect for illustrating 11.6!

When it comes to interpreting references to male and female I find it useful to substitute the words Conscious Mind and Unconscious Mind. Thus lines like 3.2, "The maiden is chaste, she does not pledge herself," translate to "The unconscious is clear, it doesn't agree with everything it hears" or 44. "The maiden is powerful." can be meaningful read as "The unconscious has powerful drives."

Great thread!
rosada
 

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