Hexagram 2 as a Consistant Resultant Hex

[yxeli]

Hey all,

I have been searching for an old thread here which I think asked a similar question to the one I'm posting here, for the sake of continuing the discussion i was going to add to that thread, but seeing as I cant seem to find it, I start a new one

I think Bradford wrote something about the significance of all yang lines changing in a hexagram to result in hexagram 2 , but might be wrong re; authorship! sorry if so. Was hoping some of you Yi masters could shed some light, because for the last couple of weeks, i'm consistantly drawing hex 2 as the resultant.

I have this way of working with hex 1 when i get it as first hex drawn, which might be a bit naive so do let me know if you think this way is bonkers, but I read it as great action/power in the resultant hex, so if i get 1>33, I read it as retreat now, put all your energy into retreat? Does that seem like a sound way of interpreting?

But when it comes to hex 2 as a resultant, would i be right in interpreting this as Yi asking me to re-analyse the meaning of the first hexagram? be receptive to that meaning?

Just seems to me that Yi is coaching me through the basics at the minute with all these hex 2's!

Thanks for any thoughts,

Bests,

Yx

 

[meng]

I have this way of working with hex 1 when i get it as first hex drawn, which might be a bit naive so do let me know if you think this way is bonkers, but I read it as great action/power in the resultant hex, so if i get 1>33, I read it as retreat now, put all your energy into retreat? Does that seem like a sound way of interpreting?

Sounds great to me.

Part of what makes it a perfect fit in your example is that trigram heaven retreats upward, while trigram mountain ain't movin'. I can get there via your action/power model. I like it.

It's more or less like an on/off light switch. The power is always potentially there, available, and in 33 the switch is off.

 

[yxeli]

Part of what makes it a perfect fit in your example is that trigram heaven retreats upward, while trigram mountain ain't movin'. I can get there via your action/power model. I like it.

Thanks for that Meng,ah yes! the trigrams-- i see the way theyre working in that example above, thanks for pointing that out, im still not reading the trigrams as a reflexive thing to do when consulting, i'll endevour to do so in future. It's great to post here to just make sure that my way of reading isnt completely off the wall

I'm wondering though what happens when its hex 2 in the resultant position. I think I may be using the same formula, only backwards with the receptive. The last instance of this was yesterday with 50>2, I'm thinking now that the receptive in this fertile field waiting for something to be 'planted' in it, so the recepetive kindof envelopes the first hexagram and just 'allows' the first hex to 'grow' ?

I understand that this obviously cant be a a decisive model with every case, but i'm just interested in ways others might read hexagram 2 as the relating hex, especially if its a recurring thing?

Yx

 

[meng]

As I see it, 2 is often mistaken for passivity, no action, just be dumb as a post and wait to be led. But earth is anything but passive. Earth carries her children 24/7, it is she who does the majority of the work, takes the majority of action. That's why a mare is used as an image for 2; she pulls and carries the weight of life upon her. The value of a bowl is in its emptiness, not to remain empty but to be utilized.

So I see no problem with 2 as a relating gua, as the power, while the primary gua, 50, is the action = to refine the mare, or to honor earth, for example.

Your concept is a bit like Nietzsche's will to power. It's interesting.

Btw, my endorsement does not include a not bonkers certificate. Sorry.

 

[yxeli]

'My idea is that every specific body strives to become master over all space and to extend its force (its will to power) and to thrust back all that resists its extension. But it continually encounters similar efforts on the part of other bodies and ends by coming to an arrangement ("union") with those of them that are sufficiently related to it: thus they then conspire together for power. And the process goes on.''

Thanks for the introduction to this Nietsche concept- I hadn't known of it before, just a quick look through the wikipedia page , seems quite dense, and alot of different theories as to what nietsche was getting at with it, but Its definitely turning on a light somehow, especially the above quote. It helps to understand my own process of interpreting, or more specifically, the way my head works with hex1 in the first position and hex 2 in the relating position, I dont apply this to other hexes i draw, but when hex 1 or hex2 is involved i often take this 'overview' approach of how it all fits together.

That's why a mare is used as an image for 2; she pulls and carries the weight of life upon her. The value of a bowl is in its emptiness, not to remain empty but to be utilized.

thanks for this. I have a feeling i'll be referring back to this again and again

Btw, my endorsement does not include a not bonkers certificate. Sorry.

Ha well i still appreciate your thoughts a great deal over here! feel the need for other yiers to throw out their ideas at me, just so i feel like im somehow still on the straight and narrow with the way i'm reading things over here

Thanks!

Yx

 

[meng]

I don't see will to power as a Nietzsche concept so much as a force he gave a name to. His predecessor, Schopenhauer, offered the same type of idea but called it will to live. I think each person can fill in the name for themselves, depending upon their own nature. Action to power seems the missing link, making it Will to Action to Power. Or how about, will to change? I don't think there's power without changing or shifting dynamics. Even a battery has a + and a 0. How 'bout a zen approach: no will to power? Or, will to no power. lol

 

[Trojina]

I could be wrong but isn't it the case that hex 2 is more likley to be the relating hexagram most often ?

I have no head for numbers and probabilities I just thought I'd read it somewhere. Lots of answers become 2 where for example fewer answers can become 39 simply because of the probability ratio wotsit.

I think I get hex 2 as relating hex quite alot and maybe everyone does more than other hexes becasue of this probability factor. I could well have imagined this.

 

[gene]

There is an element of receptivity in hexagram two. One must be sure however, of what it is to be receptive to, and what it is to be receptive. Just taking one aspect of a hexagram and trying to fit that aspect into any given situation will lead to shallow and incomplete readings. I strongly suggest that one lead ALL the commentary in books one and three of the W/B version in order to fully understand the meaning. I recommend Alfred Huang and Ni Hua-Ching as well.

I must make this clear however, it is best to read it not only in the context of the question asked, but in the context of an answer that applies to all situations at all times, and then contrast it to the commentary on hexagram one. Then read the meanings of both hexagrams as a unified whole. There is way too much emphasis in the western world on "literal" meanings and oversimplification.

In terms of hexagram 50 changing to two. In order for that to happen, four lines must change in hexagram 50. All of the yang lines must change. When four lines change, the meaning of the interaction of the lines become very important, more so than just the commentary on each individual line. Since all the changing lines are yang, they do not relate to each other very well, at least not in a general context. They may in the context of a specific question. Therefore, in this case I would recommend reading the judgment of hexagram fifty first, and seeing how that relates to the question overall.

A couple of important things about the commentary on the judgment. One, "All that is visible must grow beyond itself, extend into the realm of the invisible." Two, "The truly divine does not manifest itself apart from men..." We are being given hints here about how yin and yang work together to form a comprehensive whole. It is only when they cooperate and they do not compete that they become healthy and prosperous situations. Therefore yin must yield to "the will of heaven." (The higher powers - and here is why and how the I Ching becomes mystical, we must strive to understand it in its highest context, not just as we wish to acknowledge it.) In yielding it deprives itself of nothing. But in yielding it receives (receptive) the seed of yang (heavenly) energy. Only then does it become truly productive, and fruitful. Only when yin and yang combine PROPERLY can it be said, "Supreme good fortune. Success." This hexagram tells us that we are capable, if we act properly, of truly transforming our lives. (hexagram fifty is the hexagram of transformation.) The trigrams are of fire over wood. The burning of the wood transforms our food into something edible. It transforms our lives into something of great use, and puts us into a position where, as the image says, "consolidates his fate by making his position correct." The various lines would give examples of where we need to "consolidate our fate."

Gene

 

[gene]

There is an element of receptivity in hexagram two. One must be sure however, of what it is to be receptive to, and what it is to be receptive. Just taking one aspect of a hexagram and trying to fit that aspect into any given situation will lead to shallow and incomplete readings. I strongly suggest that one lead ALL the commentary in books one and three of the W/B version in order to fully understand the meaning. I recommend Alfred Huang and Ni Hua-Ching as well.

I must make this clear however, it is best to read it not only in the context of the question asked, but in the context of an answer that applies to all situations at all times, and then contrast it to the commentary on hexagram one. Then read the meanings of both hexagrams as a unified whole. There is way too much emphasis in the western world on "literal" meanings and oversimplification.

In terms of hexagram 50 changing to two. In order for that to happen, four lines must change in hexagram 50. All of the yang lines must change. When four lines change, the meaning of the interaction of the lines become very important, more so than just the commentary on each individual line. Since all the changing lines are yang, they do not relate to each other very well, at least not in a general context. They may in the context of a specific question. Therefore, in this case I would recommend reading the judgment of hexagram fifty first, and seeing how that relates to the question overall.

A couple of important things about the commentary on the judgment. One, "All that is visible must grow beyond itself, extend into the realm of the invisible." Two, "The truly divine does not manifest itself apart from men..." We are being given hints here about how yin and yang work together to form a comprehensive whole. It is only when they cooperate and they do not compete that they become healthy and prosperous situations. Therefore yin must yield to "the will of heaven." (The higher powers - and here is why and how the I Ching becomes mystical, we must strive to understand it in its highest context, not just as we wish to acknowledge it.) In yielding it deprives itself of nothing. But in yielding it receives (receptive) the seed of yang (heavenly) energy. Only then does it become truly productive, and fruitful. Only when yin and yang combine PROPERLY can it be said, "Supreme good fortune. Success." This hexagram tells us that we are capable, if we act properly, of truly transforming our lives. (hexagram fifty is the hexagram of transformation.) The trigrams are of fire over wood. The burning of the wood transforms our food into something edible. It transforms our lives into something of great use, and puts us into a position where, as the image says, "consolidates his fate by making his position correct." The various lines would give examples of where we need to "consolidate our fate."

Gene

 

[gene]

One more thing I might add here. The final yang line in hexagram fifty informs us of the results of allowing ourselves to be transformed. In book three of W/B the commentary says, "It is possible for the sage to impart his teaching because the six in the fifth place meets him halfway with the proper 'receptivity.'" It is only when we can admit that we know nothing, nothing at all, that we can even begin to be taught by the sage.

And here is the rub. None of us, and I mean none of us, have the proper receptivity to learn from the sage. We refuse, we absolutely refuse to let go of our pride, our defensiveness, and our rose colored glasses to really determine the message of the I Ching. None of us know it. None of us understand to any great degree the depth of teaching in the I Ching. We REFUSE to be receptive. In the western world we are so blinded by oureducation it is not even funny. It serves us well in getting better jobs and making our way in society, but beyond that it is nonsense. We cannot admit or even conceive of the fact that we know nothing. Therefore we cannot be receptive. And I submit to all of you that the understanding of the I Ching for each of us is minimal at best. That is why I see myself as a controversial figure here, because I try to get people to take the next step and they just will not do it. We are so blinded by pride.

There IS a mystical side to the I Ching, and without it it will not serve us well. It is a cool stream of water useful to nourish us, but we do not come to it except to "shoot fishes." As hexagram 63 line five in the commentary says, "Inner seriousness is lacking."

If we think we know the I Ching, we don't. If we think we understand life, we don't. We don't even come close. And we will not until we develop that "inner seriousness," and can come to the I Ching with fresh eyes, and instead of being the "one eyed man, (hexagram fifty four) we learn to see with both eyes, the spiritual and mystical as well as the phsyical.

Gene

 

[yxeli]

There is an element of receptivity in hexagram two. One must be sure however, of what it is to be receptive to, and what it is to be receptive. Just taking one aspect of a hexagram and trying to fit that aspect into any given situation will lead to shallow and incomplete readings. I strongly suggest that one lead ALL the commentary in books one and three of the W/B version in order to fully understand the meaning. I recommend Alfred Huang and Ni Hua-Ching as well.

Gene, Thanks for the above. I definitly do not think in any given reading I fully comprehend Yi's message to me, its always a cross reference of a selection of my yi books, this site and now this fantastic compendium which is really opening doors with yi for me, http://www.jamesdekorne.com/GBCh/GBCh.htm ,especially the spiritual aspect of what you also talk about above. I very much am involved with yi on a spiritual level.

I use huang alot , w/b was my first version, which i find i use now much less often because ive collected a load of yi's now, some rubbish but some quite amazing. I dont have ni hua ching version, thank you for mentioning it, I hadnt heard of this version so i'll definitely put it on my list.

i tend to ask questions that arent leading, as in simply 'advice'. This i then try to look at from the macro to the microcosmic, and its something i do everyday. I am not one to use the yi to exclusively fix my mundane world problems, or assume that I have a response pinned down, I know through my meditation practice ( something which the i ching was the catalyst for) that i have a very long way to go before i could call myself a Jun Zi! but i have a very sincere wish to follow through on this journey with the book.

I must make this clear however, it is best to read it not only in the context of the question asked, but in the context of an answer that applies to all situations at all times, and then contrast it to the commentary on hexagram one. Then read the meanings of both hexagrams as a unified whole. There is way too much emphasis in the western world on "literal" meanings and oversimplification.

I agree. I recently got a new translation published my shambhala, 'the celestial i ching', and one by lillian too, which seems pretty far removed from any indepth translation, both of which are just gathering dust around here. I very much appreciate your synopsis on how to approach uncovering the message in a casting. I do tend to do this, fan yao, transitional fan yao and nuclears, especially when its a very complicated issue, when i really do need advice about a very specific 'worldy' problem.

In terms of hexagram 50 changing to two. In order for that to happen, four lines must change in hexagram 50. All of the yang lines must change. When four lines change, the meaning of the interaction of the lines become very important, more so than just the commentary on each individual line. Since all the changing lines are yang, they do not relate to each other very well, at least not in a general context. They may in the context of a specific question. Therefore, in this case I would recommend reading the judgment of hexagram fifty first, and seeing how that relates to the question overall.

Thank you, I will do all of the above. I hesitated from posting this thread because I knew that it was an oversimplification of sorts, but theres just been so many hex 2's over the last month or so, all in the same relating position, that I thought that i must be missing something in my way of understanding the meaning with them all, like when yi throws you the same UC hex or hex combination again and again until you get the jist.

When four lines change, the meaning of the interaction of the lines become very important, more so than just the commentary on each individual line.

Is this the lines moving from 'correct' to 'incorrect', as i've seen it called? Is this the line position in relation to the host line of the gua, and where it ends up in the relation to the relating guas host? (sorry if that doesnt make any sense :E)

A couple of important things about the commentary on the judgment. One, "All that is visible must grow beyond itself, extend into the realm of the invisible." Two, "The truly divine does not manifest itself apart from men..." We are being given hints here about how yin and yang work together to form a comprehensive whole. It is only when they cooperate and they do not compete that they become healthy and prosperous situations. Therefore yin must yield to "the will of heaven." (The higher powers - and here is why and how the I Ching becomes mystical, we must strive to understand it in its highest context, not just as we wish to acknowledge it.) In yielding it deprives itself of nothing. But in yielding it receives (receptive) the seed of yang (heavenly) energy. Only then does it become truly productive, and fruitful. Only when yin and yang combine PROPERLY can it be said, "Supreme good fortune. Success." This hexagram tells us that we are capable, if we act properly, of truly transforming our lives. (hexagram fifty is the hexagram of transformation.) The trigrams are of fire over wood. The burning of the wood transforms our food into something edible. It transforms our lives into something of great use, and puts us into a position where, as the image says, "consolidates his fate by making his position correct." The various lines would give examples of where we need to "consolidate our fate."

this entire paragraph is golddust. thank you.

And here is the rub. None of us, and I mean none of us, have the proper receptivity to learn from the sage. We refuse, we absolutely refuse to let go of our pride, our defensiveness, and our rose colored glasses to really determine the message of the I Ching. None of us know it. None of us understand to any great degree the depth of teaching in the I Ching. We REFUSE to be receptive. In the western world we are so blinded by oureducation it is not even funny. It serves us well in getting better jobs and making our way in society, but beyond that it is nonsense. We cannot admit or even conceive of the fact that we know nothing. Therefore we cannot be receptive. And I submit to all of you that the understanding of the I Ching for each of us is minimal at best. That is why I see myself as a controversial figure here, because I try to get people to take the next step and they just will not do it. We are so blinded by pride.

Yep. This is exactly why i started meditating, i figure that i bring so many sides to the i ching, my own ego can be very persuasive in blinding me, both to the question im asking and to yis response.

There IS a mystical side to the I Ching, and without it it will not serve us well. It is a cool stream of water useful to nourish us, but we do not come to it except to "shoot fishes." As hexagram 63 line five in the commentary says, "Inner seriousness is lacking."

yea, as soon as i get that line in 48 i know ive gone astray

If we think we know the I Ching, we don't. If we think we understand life, we don't. We don't even come close. And we will not until we develop that "inner seriousness," and can come to the I Ching with fresh eyes, and instead of being the "one eyed man, (hexagram fifty four) we learn to see with both eyes, the spiritual and mystical as well as the phsyical.

yes, I hope someday i can do this!

Thank you gene for all of your thoughts, they realy are very much appreciated over here- I needed this re-alignment with the way i interpret.
:bows:

Yx

 

[Trojina]

And I submit to all of you that the understanding of the I Ching for each of us is minimal at best. That is why I see myself as a controversial figure here, because I try to get people to take the next step and they just will not do it. We are so blinded by pride.

well as that is something you submit to all of us FWIW I think what you fail to appreciate is that spiritual understanding comes in many forms and that those whom you say you attempt 'to take the next step' may actually be far more spiritually advanced than you are.

You say somewhere we know nothing and it's true we certainly know nothing of other people's spirituality. Certainly it would be presumptuous and prideful to imagine that we can take them a step up the spiritual ladder so to speak since we don't even know where they actually are.