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Hexagram 33

lienshan

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Here's one more of the diviner Lao Dan's incredible texts buried 312 BC
http://www.daoisopen.com/A1toA2Chapters1966.html (The Guodian Laozi chapter 66)

7 ==> : jiang1 hai3 suo3 yi3 wei2 bai3 gu3
7 ==> : wang2 yi3 qi2 neng2 wei2 bai3 gu3
7 ==> : xia4 shi4 yi3 neng2 wei2 bai3 gu3
<== 7 : wang2 sheng4 ren2 zhi1 zai4 min2 qian2
7 ==> : yi3 shen1 hou4 zhi1 qi2 zai4 min2
8 ==> : shang4 yi3 yan2 xia4 zhi1 qi2 zai4 min2
6 ==> : shang4 min2 fu2 hou4 qi2 zai4
<== 6 : min2 qian2 min2 fu2 hai2 tian1
<== 6 : xia4 le4 jin4 er2 fu2 yan2
<== 6 : yi3 qi2 bu4 zheng1 gu4 tian1
<== 6 : xia4 mo4 neng2 yu3 zhi1 zheng1

The main problem with this text is the translation of the two vertical columns of characters.
The first character of each line makes this sentence of 11 characters:

The inferior king of the river king uses superior people of superiors below because inferior.

The last character of each line makes this sentence of 11 characters:

In front Earth of Heaven is the influence of Heaven hating the arguement of Heaven.

My explanation of the three gu3 characters and the two min2 characters:

Shuo Gua (the eightth wing): "to Heaven they assigned the number 3, to Earth the number 2"
So the three gu3 characters mean "Heaven" and the two min2 characters mean "Earth"!

The river and the position of the sea use to rule hundred valley streams.
A king uses this ability to rule hundred valley streams.
Below is reason why the ability rules hundred valley streams.
The influence of in front people goes to the holy kings of man.
Because the bodies behind go to the people of their influence.
Superiors use words downwards going to the people of their influence.
The people of superiors is not behind their influence.
Heaven does not harm the in front people of the people.
Do not hate and advance joy below.
The former arguement of Heaven is not its reason.
Arguing goes to the ability of coorperation with no one below.


The hexagram number of the text is 777786
(the number of characters in the six lines read from left to right lines)

Zhouyi 777786 = 33.1 = TUN zhi TUNG JEN
Guicang 777786 = 33.2,3,4,5,6 = TUN zhi SHIH
Lianshan 777786 = 33.2 = TUN zhi FU
 

lienshan

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Zhouyi 33.1

Here the chinese text for 33.1:

遯 | dun4 | retreat | to conceal, to escape, pig, piglet
尾 | wei3 | tail | back guard, back, rear, to mate, to breed (1)
厲 | li4 } | dangerous | severe, harsh , hard
勿 | wu4 | must not | do not, not
用 | yong4 | undertake | to use, to apply
有 | you3 | ? | to have, there is, there are
攸 | you1 | ? | distant, far, a place, where?
往 | wang3 | ? | to go in a direction, towards
The rear of a misleaders whetstone never apply the existence of that which depart.

li4 does too mean "a whetstone" and I prefer the image of a misleader's tool,
that doesn't produce a leftover from that which should have been sharpend.
 

charly

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The rear of a misleaders whetstone never apply the existence of that which depart.

li4 does too mean "a whetstone" and I prefer the image of a misleader's tool,
that doesn't produce a leftover from that which should have been sharpend.

Hi Lienshan:

I don´t see any whetstone in my post that you quoted censored. Here the complete quote:

Getojack:

Here the chinese text for 33.1 whit W/B and other options:

遯 | dun4 | retreat | to conceal, to escape, pig, piglet
尾 | wei3 | tail | back guard, back, rear, to mate, to breed (1)
厲 | li4 } | dangerous | severe, harsh , hard
勿 | wu4 | must not | do not, not
用 | yong4 | undertake | to use, to apply
有 | you3 | ? | to have, there is, there are
攸 | you1 | ? | distant, far, a place, where?
往 | wang3 | ? | to go in a direction, towards

As you can see W/B had taken some licenses here:

1) «dangerous» isn't what the text says but what it suggests.
2) the rendering for the prognostication «wu yong you you wang» is an advice: «One must not wish to undertake anything» not a literal translation (2).

The commentary of W/B says:


A military interpretation, it is not healthy to be at back guard, better be quiet.

But if you keep still, how could you to retreat? Maybe W/B is ecouraging troops at the back guard to desert? Desertors also runs heavy risks, they can be executed from the back if officials caught him or can be killed by the foes depending of his humour.

The picture you (Getojack) post is telling us that the true danger is to have an exposed tail, folktales speaks of animals (3) cought for having forgot to conceal his tail. The advice could be «if you show your tail, any hiding place can help you» (4).

Yours,

Charly:bows:

______________________________
(1) the last two given as a possibility for Harmen.
(2) a literal translation could be: «useless to have where to go», looks unlucky instead of which «not wish to undertake anything» looks pretty more optimistic about the possible results.
(3) generally foxes.
(4) in a moralistic way it exhorts you not to show your bad aspects, not to show the raveled thread [«no mostrar la hilacha», «las patas de la sota»].

Ch.:bows:
 

charly

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...
The main problem with this text is the translation of the two vertical columns of characters.
The first character of each line makes this sentence of 11 characters:

The inferior king of the river king uses superior people of superiors below because inferior.

The last character of each line makes this sentence of 11 characters:

In front Earth of Heaven is the influence of Heaven hating the arguement of Heaven.

My explanation of the three gu3 characters and the two min2 characters:

Shuo Gua (the eightth wing): "to Heaven they assigned the number 3, to Earth the number 2"
So the three gu3 characters mean "Heaven" and the two min2 characters mean "Earth"!
...
Hi, Lienshan:

1st.: You posted a link to Guodian manuscript, being that there is no parsing at all, how do you know where is the first or the last character of each line?

2nd.: the number of times that a given character appears might be a function of the text lenght. For me is quite clear that GU = valley means FEMALE and maybe EARTH and that, althought less clear, MIN = PEOPLE / HUMANITY means MALE and HEAVEN.

Yours,

Charly
 

charly

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Dao De Jing Chapter 66

As a large river flows to the sea, it becomes the ruler over the hundreds of valleys it travels through.
Because of this, the hundreds of valleys have the ability to act as though they were below.
It's just natural this ability would allow the hundred valleys to be ruled.

The influence of a wise person promotes other people to advance, while keeping their own selves in the background.
Their influence places others on a higher level, while their own words remain below.
Their influence places people on a higher level, so the people don't feel like they're in the background.
Their influence promotes other people to advance, so the people won't feel like they're being criticized.
Everywhere in the world happiness abounds, yet won't prevent room for more.

Because there's nothing to argue about, that's why nothing in the world has the ability to argue with each other.

Trad. by Nina Correa
from: http://www.daoisopen.com/Chapter66.html

The begining could be understood so:

A man with a long life [LONG RIVER] always looks for his mother [SEA], hundreds of women [VALLEYS] knows in his journey. They are able to feign that they were below the man, so he can rule over them.

Rulers [WISE PEOPLE] encourage soldiers [OTHERS] to advance but they remain safe at the backguard.

I wonder who is the worst lier, if women leting men believe that men rule or rulers leting people believe that rulers fight.

Maybe LauZi spoke about SEX and HIERARCHY.

Yours,

Charly
 

lienshan

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Hi Lienshan:

I don´t see any whetstone in my post that you quoted censored.
Hi charly

I'm not able to write chinese characters from my PC,
so I quoted instead your post to show the characters of the Zhouyi 33.1 linetext.

li4 means "dangerous, severe, harsh, hard" but means too "a whetstone".

The headline of the diviner Lao Dan's philosophy was, that title "Son of Heaven" was a bluff,
and the number of characters structure of his chapter 66 points to the Zhouyi 33.1 linetext:

The rear of a misleaders whetstone never apply the existence of that which depart.
 

lienshan

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Hi, Lienshan:

1st.: You posted a link to Guodian manuscript, being that there is no parsing at all, how do you know where is the first or the last character of each line?
Very short: The Guodian Laozi is the proof, that there was no Laozi.
Dao De Jing is a collection of early daoist texts written by various authors.
Dao De Jing was composed as one text in Qin 221-213 BC.

One of the authors was the Grand Historian and Astrologer Lao Dan, who lived during the reign of Duke Xian of Qin (384–362 BC). Lao Dan was thus a diviner and his incredible texts are composed according to divinatory numbers, because each line (sentence) is made of either 6, 7, or 8 characters. That'll say the content of the text itself corresponds to the divinations of the number of characters. That'll say there is a hexagram hidden in each of his texts. The six lines (sentences) building the hexagram are either those that are meant to be read from top to bottom or from bottom to top.

Lao Dan used two different reading directions within a text. He lived at a time, where there was no freedom of speech. Lao Dan used the unusual from bottom to top reading direction, whenever he wrote about the King (the Son of Heaven), because his point of view was "lese-majesty". Lao Dan and those with copies of his text would be put to jail for years or probably be decapitated, if the imperial censors had been able to decode his texts. Examples from this chapter 66:

The influence of in front people goes to the holy kings of man.
Heaven does not harm the in front people of the people.
The former arguement of Heaven is not its reason.

Maybe I'm right? Maybe I'm wrong? That depends of the eyes reading. I look at all this from a diviners point of view and think, that I have a great opportunity to explore how a 375 BC diviner read some of the Zhouyi texts and how he used the Guicang to structure his texts. The Guodian texts were buried before the Qin and Han editors made his texts more readable in a from left to right reading direction, so they are almost original and easy to recognize among the other "flipsy-flopsy" daoist texts. T.ex. is Lao Dan's chapter 1 almost original in the Received version; there's only added two characters (ci3 and er2 in line 7).
 

bradford

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Very short: The Guodian Laozi is the proof, that there was no Laozi.

That's not a proof at all. Bad logic. It's just as likely that someone was buried with an altered, abridged or damaged text.
 

lienshan

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"altered"? The first Guodian Laozi "chapters" are 19-66-46-30-15-64b-37-63-2 and after a break 32
The "chapters" in bold contain the dao character, but brushed like footprints on a road and not as the usual dao character, as it is brushed on the following slips of the Guodian Laozi. The first "chapters" from 19 to 2 were therefore by logic brushed by a copyist listening to someone, who was reading aloud.
One cannot "alter" while stenographing.

"abridged"? How can a text be shortened and although contain two "chapters" 64b? Isn't it more logically, that the Guodian Laozi is a collection of various "daoist" texts, circulating among scholars? That explains the existence of a double-chapter, because the chance of hitting a double is rather fair in a collection containing almost one third of the later Dao De Jing.

"damaged"? A few of the bamboo slips are damaged, but most of the text collections are written straight-out in column after column of characters almost without breaks, but a little dot between the "chapters". The chinese Guodian scholars divide in three main collections, that'll say the Guodian Laozi comes from at least three various sources.
 

bradford

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Even if your arguments held your logic still sucks. One empirical or anecdotal instance does not constitute a proof of anything, except that you are easily convinced.
 

Sparhawk

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"altered"? The first Guodian Laozi "chapters" are 19-66-46-30-15-64b-37-63-2 and after a break 32
The "chapters" in bold contain the dao character, but brushed like footprints on a road and not as the usual dao character, as it is brushed on the following slips of the Guodian Laozi. The first "chapters" from 19 to 2 were therefore by logic brushed by a copyist listening to someone, who was reading aloud.
One cannot "alter" while stenographing.

Sorry, this is "logical" because_______________ (fill in the blank)... :eek:

So, it makes more sense to imagine a scene with a "reading aloud" party and a "bamboo slip brushing stenographer" taking down the words and because of the reading speed he wouldn't have a chance to "alter" the words? What about someone "copying" a text from another one or an "original" writing from memory?
 

lienshan

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What about someone "copying" a text from another one or an "original" writing from memory?
The utmost important character in Dao De Jing is dao.
By logic: The copyist brushing a wrong dao-character three times was not a daoist.
How could a non-daoist copywriter memorize seven or more chapters from a daoist text :confused:
 

charly

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Sorry, this is "logical" because_______________ (fill in the blank)... :eek:

So, it makes more sense to imagine a scene with a "reading aloud" party and a "bamboo slip brushing stenographer" taking down the words and because of the reading speed he wouldn't have a chance to "alter" the words? What about someone "copying" a text from another one or an "original" writing from memory?
Luis:

I always believed that the Guodian ms was an earlier stage of the DDJ composition, not a remained of the received text. Maybe I'm wrong.

...the Guodian version has major departures in organization and content. The arrangement of the passages differs significantly from the received version, and there are numerous variant and/or archaic characters. In terms of content, it is noteworthy that many of the polemical and anti-Ruist (Confucian) passages are absent. One explanation is that the “Bamboo Laozi” represents an earlier phase of composition. The Guodian slips point towards the fact that the organization and content of the received text was in flux at least as late as the end of the fourth century BCE.

Center for Daoist Studies
at: http://www.daoistcenter.org/daodejing.html

The hypothesis of accidental variation of characters requires that the memorious persons that dictated were iliterate, if they were reading a copy why would they don't verify what the scribe was doing ?

Abrazo,

Charly
 

lienshan

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Center for Daoist Studies said:
it is noteworthy that many of the polemical and anti-Ruist (Confucian) passages are absent.
I think that t.ex. the first (chapter 19) is very polemical:

http://www.daoisopen.com/A1toA2Chapters1966.html

The chapter is made of six lines. Four of the lines consist of 8 characters according to the dots.
I read the linebreaks as being 888858 characters indicating hexagram 7.2

In the midst of the army.
Good fortune. No blame.
The king bestows a triple decoration.


Corresponding to the san yan (three statesments) beginning of the polemical anti-King passage.
 

Sparhawk

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The utmost important character in Dao De Jing is dao.
By logic: The copyist brushing a wrong dao-character three times was not a daoist.
How could a non-daoist copywriter memorize seven or more chapters from a daoist text :confused:

That is your logic for it? OK...
 

Sparhawk

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The hypothesis of accidental variation of characters requires that the memorious persons that dictated were iliterate, if they were reading a copy why would they don't verify what the scribe was doing ?

Abrazo,

Charly

Charly,

That doesn't hold water either. Spoken word is not the same as the written word. "If" the text was being "dictated," which I seriously doubt, the scribe writing it down would not capriciously write different versions of the same character for a same spoken word. An "illiterate" scribe (biggest oxymoron of them all...) would rather lack a variety of characters to use, not exhibit more options to put down in writing. Scribes do not make accidental errors.

Abrazo,
 

lienshan

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"If" the text was being "dictated," which I seriously doubt, the scribe writing it down would not capriciously write different versions of the same character for a same spoken word.
"If" ... then there probably are more examples ... t.ex. within the 13 characters starting with san yan
and ending with sou shu of chapter 19. Try have a look at the two huo characters within the sequence.
The chinese Guodian scholars have interpreted them as huo , but they do too look very similar to yu,
that means region/area ... both huo and yu have the same oracle character as preceeding character,
that means the kingdom ... so huo and yu were perhaps pronounced almost similar before 312 BC ?
 

charly

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Charly,

That doesn't hold water either. Spoken word is not the same as the written word. "If" the text was being "dictated," which I seriously doubt, the scribe writing it down would not capriciously write different versions of the same character for a same spoken word. An "illiterate" scribe (biggest oxymoron of them all...) would rather lack a variety of characters to use, not exhibit more options to put down in writing. Scribes do not make accidental errors.

Abrazo,
Luis!:

Who did speak of ILLITERATE SCRIBES ?

I believe that if a learned person would have dictated the text would have verified the transcript, at least for different words with the same pronunciation.

A scribe copying from a text only would alter a character if having the intention of improving the original or of censoring it, but hardly would make a mistake based on pronunciation.

I believe that accidental mistake requires a sort illiterate AEDOS that learned the text by heart dictating to a SCRIBE not initiated in the matter of the text.

But scribes weren't also diviners?


Abrazo,

Charly
 

lienshan

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But scribes weren't also diviners?
Some were probably, but the communist scholars reading the Guodian texts were not diviners!
That's why they didn't knew to break chapter 19 into six lines of 888858 characters, which do
correspond to hexagram 7.2 when using the numerology of the Guicang divination method.

line 4: The doctrine of Heaven must be considered an envoy short of territory.
line 5: An order goes to a territory under one's command.

The other lines are easy to translate. The first three (three = Heaven according to Shuo Gua)
lines are the three doctrines. The two characters interpreted as "huo" by the scholars are instead
the character "yu" meaning "territory". The territory under one's command is the sixth line.

8 was thus an "unchanging line" in the Guicang divination method!
5 was thus a "changing line" in the Guicang divination method!
 

lienshan

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You posted a link to Guodian manuscript, being that there is no parsing at all,
how do you know where is the first or the last character of each line?
Here's one of the ways to read Guodian chapter 66 and 46 as one single text:

8: jiang1 hai3 suo3 yi3 wei2 bai3 gu3 wang2
8: yi3 qi2 neng2 wei2 bai3 gu3 xia4 shi4
8: yi3 neng2 wei2 bai3 gu3 wang2 sheng4 ren2
8: zhi1 zai4 min2 qian2 ye3 yi3 shen1 hou4 zhi1
8: qi2 zai4 min2 shang4 ye3 yi3 yan2 xia4 zhi1
7: qi2 zai4 min2 shang4 ye3 min2 fu2 hou4 ye3
7: qi2 zai4 min2 qian2 ye3 min2 fu2 hai2 ye3
7: tian1 xia4 le4 jin4 er2 fu2 yan2
7: yi3 qi2 bu4 zheng1 ye3 gu4 tian1 xia4
6: mo4 neng2 yu3 zhi1 zheng1 zui4
6: mo4 hou4 hu1 shen4 yu4 jiu4
6: mo4 can3 hu1 yu4 de2 hou4
6: mo4 da4 hu1 bu4 zhi1 zu2
8: zhi1 zu2 zhi1 wei2 zu2 ci3 heng2 zu2
yi3 (final particle denoting one has finished speaking)

The auxillary characters in red form a hexagram, but which one?

ye3 yi3 shen1 hou4 zhi1
ye3 yi3 yan2 xia4 zhi1
ye3 min2 fu2 hou4 ye3
ye3 min2 fu2 hai2 ye3
er2 fu2 yan2
ye3 gu4 tian1 xia4

Only looking at the characters 1-1-2-2-"2"-1 correspond to hexagram 32 HENG
Counting the characters behind 4-4-3-3-2-3 correspond to hexagram 55 FENG
Counting all of the characters 5-5-5-5-3-4 correspond to hexagram 44 KOU

The characters of the first six lines of the whole text 888887 correspond to hexagram 24 FU
The characters of the last six lines of the whole text 766668 correspond to hexagram 23 PO
 

lienshan

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The Guodian slips are 31.5 cm long and each slips contains about 28 characters.
Slips-mails were about 20 to 23 cm long and about 18 characters on each slip must have been max.
Maybe were the dictated texts known as the Guodian Laozi in fact mails from a diviner?
Maybe were there max 9 characters (one sentence) written on each mail-slip without "end-markings"?
That would explain, why the text copied on longer slips are so hard to break into sentences.
I've put single english words in the six "hexagram-lines" described in my previous post:

go-to influence people in-front ooo because body behind exits
that influence people on-top ooo because words below exit
that influence people on-top ooo people not behind ooo
that influence people in-front ooo people not abused ooo
Heaven under joyful advances and no hate
because they don't quarrel ooo therefore Heaven below

The number of characters in front of the blue characters are in every line: 5
The numbers of the hexagram might be the opposites of the blue characters in the magic square:

2 earth ........ 7 marsh ...... 6 thunder

9 mountain ... 5 fire ......... 1 mountain

4 water ....... 3 heaven ..... 8 wind

That'll say: 667787 corresponding to the (Guicang) hexagram 55 FENG line 2 (55.2)

The curtain is of such fullness
That the polestars can be seen at noon.
Through going one meets with mistrust and hate.
If one rouses him through truth,
Good fortune comes.


The subject of the linetext is a sun eclipse; the polestars can be seen at noon!
The first blue characters "because body behind exits" might describe an sun eclipse?
The last blue characters "therefore Heaven below" might claim, that the earth is round?
 

lienshan

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The characters tian1 xia4 le4 jin4 (Heaven under joyful advances) looks interesting.
Heaven under joyful corresponds to the two trigrams forming hexagram 43 KUAI

9 go-to influence people in-front ooo because body behind exits
9 that influence people on-top ooo because words below exit
9 that influence people on-top ooo people not behind ooo
9 that influence people in-front ooo people not abused ooo
7 Heaven under joyful advances and no hate
8 because they don't quarrel ooo therefore Heaven below

879999 corresponding to KUAI (43.1,2,3,4) occurs when counting all characters of each line,
but is if so viewed reversed, which is the matter discussed in the text. That Heaven (the sun)
is behind/under the moon during an eclipse and therefore too behind/under during the night.

The two trigrams Marsh and Heaven are neighbors in the Shuo Gua section four:

He gives them joy in the sign of the Joyous;
He battles in the sign of the Creative;


The text I'm exploring was written about 375 BC and I find it interesting, that the trigrams
already then were named in an official diviner's text, as they are named in the Ten Wings!
 

lienshan

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Even if your arguments held your logic still sucks.
One empirical or anecdotal instance does not constitute a proof of anything,
except that you are easily convinced.
One can actually see more indications of the fact, that the Guodian text was dictated. The one copying
use a little stroke above characters like qi, tian, xia, but these little strokes miss on the fourth slip and
on the top of the fifth slip. The one copying must have been a little tired loosing speed and in order to
follow the tempo of the one reading and the other copyists, he had to make his characters more simple.

The one copying did a mistake, when they arrived at the break of "chapter 46" and "chapter 30":
http://www.daoisopen.com/A2toA5Chapters66463015.html

He brushed a yi (final particle) but the reader said yi (the first character of chapter 30). Both characters
have the same phonetic, so that explains why the one copying brushed a unnessary dot under the yi.
That'll say, the text doesn't end with "chapter 46", but continues with "chapter 30" and ends at the dot
below the character hao; the dot represents the wrong character yi (final particle) above chapter 30.

The one copying was thus unconcentrated and missed three characters of "chapter 30", marked with
two dots. The two missing characters after the character jin must have been the two characters guo er
The missing character after qiang is yan according to the Fu Yi and Mawangdui versions.
http://www.daoisopen.com/downloads/CC30.pdf

8 yi dao zuo ren zhu zhe bu yu
8 yi bing qiang yu tian xia shan zhe
8 guo er yi bu yi qu qiang (yan)
8 guo er fu fa guo er fu jiao
8 guo er fu jin (guo er) shi wei
7 guo er bu qiang qi shi hao (yi/final particle)

888887 correspond to hexagram 24 FU

Addition: The number of characters on each slip are:

27, 28, 29, 28, 25, 27 (the first copyist is then substituted)
31, 32, 29, 30, 31, 29, 30, 32, 32, 31, 31 (the dictate ending with chapter 2 is finished)
24, 28, 26, 29, 32, 26, 29, ??, 29, 27, 28, 22, 26, 30, 25, 27, 29, 28, 9 (end of "Laozi A")

The substituting copyist had an remarkable avarage of over 30 characters on each slip.
 
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