Hexagram 45 changing to 19

[arabella]

Glad to be able to say Hello again to All. Really missed the forum while it was down. I've been waiting to ask this question in relation to a relationship. I've asked about him before, about a month ago, and those who replied thought the casting indicated it was just a matter of time before we would become more definite as a couple.

Since then there has been total silence between us as I've been trying to respect a prolonged grieving process he is in and let him take the lead from here. I should say, he's been grieving for nearly two years, and for the last year we've been friends. At times in the past year, he seems to have moved past his sorrow and wants to be closer and head toward the future together. Other times he grieves heavier than ever and shuts the door. I understand how this goes to some extent as I am a widow and he a widower, but time doesn't stand still and I'd like to know what to expect. When my husband died I had three children to raise and had to get on with it and not hold them back with sadness, so maybe I handled it differently. He has grown children and lives alone -- they are all at a distance. So I asked IChing about his "intentions in relation to me," and I got Hexagram 45, moving lines one, two, four, and five changing to 19.

Your interpretations are deeply appreciated.

 

[answeredquestions]

Hey arabella.

As I read about what you got I am going to throw out ideas that come to my mind.

Hexagram 45- The image is of a lake over earth. Right away I thought about how to me, water symbolizes emotions. and this lake might be in regards to his emotions gathering up in a place in the earth. The earth to me, symbolizes standing firm. So put those together, you get someone who is sort of stuck in a poll of emotions and in a rut. (all pretty obvious and what you have already said)

and I am reminding myself that you asked what HIS intentions were for the question.

In the Wilhelm translation it says, "human woes usually come as a result of unexpected events against which we are not forearmed. If we are prepared, they can be prevented."
That to me just strengthens that 45 is about his emotional state.

Line 1- There is talk of reaching out, calling out, and being sincere. After taking someones hand you can laugh again. I would say that is about him reaching out to you, and feeling better when he did so. It's as though communicating with you or reaching out to you would make him feel better and he could lighten his baggage.
It also mentions lacking a firm center inwhich to gather. That says to me that maybe you need more of a common ground. You said that you too are a widow though. So perhaps the common ground isn't as easy to see as something that simple. maybe it is a common emotional ground you are different on. You said you were able to be strong and move on. And he cannot. Maybe he alienates himself on that difference.

Line 2- this line speaks very good of you two being "made for eachother". And secret forces at work that make you understand eachother.

So far it is a roller coaster of good and bad things. Sort of like a wave. And like emotions can sometimes be.

Line 4- this line to me, says that he is living for a purpose that is unselfish. Perhaps thinking of his ex wife and thinking that she would be hurt by your guy's union.
I don't know where my thoughts exactly come from and I am not trying to affend. I am using the Wilhelm Traslation if you want to look it up. I just think this is maybe his mindframe. Like, he is living his life for someone who has passed away.

Line 5-this line talks about gathering and if it is sincere at the time. I am not sure if it is on your end or his that I should look at it. Based on the question, I guess his end. So, looking at why he gathers to see you: he could be sincerely gathering to see you because he wants to, or like the line also says, he could be gathering to see you because you are in an influential position or maybe he is just benefiting from it.



All these changing lines can be looked at, like they are how or why (his means of thinking or feeling) he is changing to the next hexagram.
Heagram 19- First off this Hexagram is linked with Jan. and Feb. and how the light is Aproaching. To me this says that he would have to make the best of the "light" times ahead to succeed. To me, this whole thing says that he WANTS to make things work but is just battling so much emotion. The best thing for him to do would be, when he is feeling his best, keep that momentum going. The image of the hexagram is opposite of the first one. This time it is earth over lake. That is interesting to me. Umm. is he a priest or anything? Or someone who spreads the word of something?



This is what I have so far. Does it help you in any way?
Tell me what you think.

 

[answeredquestions]

Also in line 1- How I said he lacks a firm center. Perhaps that is his heart. Your heart is at the center of your being. It is the core that makes you tick. Maybe it is saying that his heart needs some work and that he needs to strengthen his center.

 

[arabella]

Answered Questions ~ I think you've hit the situation dead on center and really picked up on what is so entirely frustrating. He liked his life the way it was, and seems to have so many emotions about it having changed. I think he felt secure and loved his wife and is having a real struggle seeing that he is now, in a practical sense, alone. When we spend time together he is right "there" and enjoying himself for a while, laughing and talking about the future and remembering all the things he could be doing if he weren't at home mourning. I realize that mourning is essential, but I sometimes feel he's making it into an Art form. At times he is living very much WITH her memory in the middle of the room and I've never discouraged him from discussing their marriage at all, they were married a long time, this is his past, which was apparently a happy one. But I see him also struggling, floundering, wanting to go forward and torn about how to do it and whether it is a betrayal. Having said that, how do you live, maybe for years, for someone who is dead? Especially when you are a person who is very sociable, interesting and attractive, who makes very good company and a kind friend? It seems to me we would both be missing a lot. Although I see all of this, it would be a mistake to advise him I think. It just seems very self-serving, which would be a terrible beginning to a relationship.

Lately I see him sinking a bit, looking very unhappy, even when out and about town. I haven't stopped to say anything, I'm more or less leaving him to it while he sorts through the possibiltiies and what he wants. Of course I hope our relationship will continue and blossom, but only if it is a whole-hearted matter, and I think that has to come from him since he is the one in turmoil. If he is stuck in his grief, then I think I'll have to keep a distance.

REALLY interesting that you picked up on his religious connection. He had considered becoming a priest. I've known a number of men who have said this, so maybe common among catholic boys, but amazing that you got that message.

 

[answeredquestions]

...I think that has to come from him since he is the one in turmoil. If he is stuck in his grief, then I think I'll have to keep a distance.

Yes. Real True Happiness can only come from within. I would not go as far as to say that keeping distance is the right thing to do, but I don't know the entire situation. Sometimes compassion is a wonderful tool, to help people see their inner happiness. This theme seems to be a very big battle in our world. Self awareness and happiness can sometimes battle being compassionate to others. And vica versa. How much compassion do you give before someone milks it? How much compassion is needed to get someone on their feet before they can realize their own potential? Sometimes people use compassion to help themselves. Maybe he is contemplating becoming a priest again. He could be living his life with his ex wife "by his side". constantly thinking she is with him. That to me, is saying that he is (maybe subconsciously) living his life more spiritually. He is more connected to the spiritual world simply because of his mind state and emotional state. Seems to me like the reading said with hexagram 19 ending it, that he wants to further himself in a spiritual way. Maybe that is his battle with you, because that would interfeir with your guy's relationship.

So, now what do you think?

 

[arabella]

In saying I'd keep a distance I'm thinking of past situations where I've been too compassionate, and in the end not made the other person in the relationship stand on their own feet. I've found they are standing instead on mine, so not helpful to either of us. It may sound off the wall, but since childhood I've had an empathic healing ability. Some say this doesn't even exist, but I can testify that it does. I can feel other people's hurt and, sometimes, remove it, which isn't ALWAYS a good thing, believe it or not. There are people, my deceased husband was one, who come to rely on that and don't get the inner strength to be responsible for themselves. And some people don't want to be relieved of their pain and prefer it to getting well. Go figure, but it's true. So it's complicated with my friend now, knowing that his pain is a lesson in life, and how he faces that lesson isn't up to me.

My husband didn't love me, which makes recovery from being left on my own a different subject. This friend of mine had it all. Who wouldn't miss that? I suppose what you contemplate spiritually on death depends on your spiritual orientation. I mean, it matters if you think a "wife" is awaiting you in the next world who will want answers about what else you did with your time on earth and who else you loved. Whereas, I think these roles are for this lifetime only. We don't forget the parts we played [husband, wife, child, parent] after we die, but they are for this world, the world of names and physicality. In the next world, our souls are the integral "being" and those human roles and even male and female don't exist anymore. I think this is why religious ceremonies that marry people specify this relationship holds "until death us do part." Because death creates all new rules for the departed, and leaves the human being they were married to in this world to continue coping and trying to take on new life lessons.

 

[arabella]

The other thing I'm in a quandry about with this reading, [and I think you've done an amazing job of interpreting the Hexagram 45 and all those changing lines] is what exactly does the Hexagram 35 connote? I always looked at Progress in a reading like this one to mean that progress in the relationship is intended and possible. Here I'm asking about him and his intentions toward me. So I'm thinking his intentions are that we will progress, or he will progress and come closer now. And I'm thinking fairly soon on this, because progress doesn't sound like there's any hanging back. The image of starting with a pair of horses, wanting a herd, and therefore breeding horses three times a day, for instance, is something fairly insistent!

 

[answeredquestions]

Did you ask the I Ching once more and get 35?

35 talks about 2 people. One who is greater than the other. But the greater person does not use this against the other and welcomes the lesser person in.

 

[arabella]

Oh SORRY. I'm looking at the wrong page here. NO I meant 19. Good grief. I was wondering about the core meaning of 19 at the outcome of this casting. And I guess this is what you are seeing as religious. Actually, it probably is. We are both religious people and try to live a spiritual life in our own way, just of different persuasions.

The 35 was for something slightly different where I was asking, if I leave this situation as it is and don't press anything further, would I be likely to hear from him anytime soon, on his own? And I got the hexagram 35, fated. Well, we both like horses, but I'm sure the symbolism is really something different. It sounds really daunting, to think of a "greater" and "lesser" person. I'd hate being a "lesser" one but I wouldn't want to think of myself as "greater" than he is. He's pretty great.

By the way, many thanks for all the thought and time you've put into these answers. I'm extremely grateful and so impressed with your interpretations here.

 

[answeredquestions]

I'm honestly new to the I Ching in my eyes and so I just type what I think. I am glad it has helped. I think talking about it sorts out what the meaning is. And that is just what we have been doing.

Yeah, I think 19 is about religous matters. Let me see...
So It is called Approach but is a loose translation because the chinese word that it came from is lin and they cannot completely translate that directly. Wilhelm says it is the idea of "becoming great".

In the actual hexagram, the lines that are yang(strong and unbroken) are at the bottom. And their power is due to that they are rising or approaching the top. It's as if it is better to be moving towards the top, than actually get there and then twiddle your thumbs.

It also talks about a person who is in a high position and their arrogance towards those who are not.

It says in the text: "Approach has supreme success. Perseverance furthers. When the eighth month comes, there will be misfortune."
This part points to good things. Like spring being on the way and happy and joyful times. And then in the 8th month, things go sour. It says we must take heed of this change in good time. Because if we meet evil beofre it becomes reality, we can master it.

The last part about the hexagram in Wilhelm's Translation is about the Image:
earth over lake. For some reason I think I focused on that part a bit much before. Not sure why. But that is where the religous stuff came in. It could be taken spiritually, or old school, and more religious. Either way.It talks of a man that wants to help and teach mankind.

I find it cool and interesting that the hexagrams are both comprised of trigram lake and trigram earth, just flip flopped. Maybe that in itself is a symbol of something.

What do you think?

 

[arabella]

So maybe flopping the first hexagram upside down means that through whatever process the lines in hexagram 45 indicate, the person has reversed their situation and overcome the difficulty? Which in this case is debilitating grief.

Okay, and then the eighth month, maybe you don't take it for granted that because things are on a better footing you've solve everything. If you just celebrate your "success" and let matters drift, you won't progress further and continued progression is essential. How about that?

 

[arabella]

Maybe a senior person here will come along and take a look at this discussion we're having and shed some more light. Meanwhile, I think you're amazing if this isn't something you've done for long.

 

[answeredquestions]

HELP senior members .. HELP!!

 

[arabella]

Well, THAT should get some attention!

 

[answeredquestions]

I know! Yeah, it would be great to get a different angle on this situation. I could try to step out of my normal thinking, but first I have to always go with what pops in my head directly. I guess to just stay true to myself. Someone else's take always amazes me.

 

[arabella]

Exactly. This forum is so useful just for that reason. I've learned a lot so far, and haven't been a member all that long.

 

[arabella]

Looks like nobody has noticed your plea. There used to be a member, Willow Fox, who chimed in whenever there was a question, but she has retired I believe. Several other astute members have their say from time to time, so sit tight, maybe one of them will have a comment or two!

 

[magg]

confused

He sounds confused - changes perspectives - one day this way, another day that way... gather together, stay away, get close...Anyway, I think it is difficult to understand another person's perspective - walk a mile in their shoes. Its worthwhile to try, I suppose, but especially difficult when you try to understand them so subjectively as in how he sees you.
It might be easier, to ask the I Ching about the best way for you to proceed in regards to the intentions of this man. You can make decisions about how you will proceed, but its a real task to understand the complex feelings of a confused person.
Also, religious or spiritual inclinations are so important. A relationship can endure almost anything if two people are of one mind and heart - in the same boat sharing weal and woe. I do not know of too many traditional religious thinkers who approve of the use of the I Ching. Be true to yourself.
Joy to you.

 

[answeredquestions]

You can make decisions about how you will proceed, but its a real task to understand the complex feelings of a confused person.

This could be a way to look at it for sure, because you cannot figure people out sometimes. But you can always work on you. (This is of course not to say you need worked on. Just that this is all you have control of)

Maybe try asking it a question like, (and i have asked something like this before)
What can I do to make the best possible outcome between X and Y? Instead of what is "other persons name" intentions in relation to me?

 

[arabella]

Okay. Taking the two suggestions above, I asked IChing, what's the best I can do in regard to this relationship? And I got 34 changing lines 3 and 4, becoming 19. The changing lines talk about minimal action, no? What is yours will come to you? And don't apply too much power, you'll only do damage? 19 is nearing, so is this saying that he will come closer on his own, don't push him?

Are we going in circles here? 19 was the outcome when I asked his intentions too? Hmmmmm.