Hexagram 45

[jesed]

wait, wait, wait....

Luis: I have no problem in adapting the Yi, or anything else. That's ok. That's not the issue I'm poiting. The issue is when one say that our nowadays comprhension is what the authors originally said.

Bradford: something similar. I agree with your (our) actual understanding "I would have to say coldly though that the heart is insecurity and of course a basic biological drive for fellowship (evolved out of survival-related parameters) that will use just about anything as an excuse to satisfy itself.".
We can explain in that way TODAY the need (or the usefulness) of religion. OK. I'm with you (and with Cris) in that. But I cann't find any textual or contextual element in Zhouyi and Zhou-culture to say: "they see it the same way than we"

Bruce: YES, maybe we better continue this topic in a new thread, and return in this to the practical question. Thanks for the reminding.

Modesty: Your last post is something like what I suggested in my email comments to you, time ago. I think that is the best path. And 6.5 points to reinforce: a third-party helper (psicological or legal help) would be better to start a new era in your marriage. My best wishes for you and your family

Best wishes

 

[willowfox]

Hi modesty,

BTW, my wife indicated that she is coming back (but did not say what she got in mind). I asked the Yi what would happen when she is back, I got Hex 6 + line 5 => 64.

Hex 6.5 says that you will need the services of a mediator, someone you can trust to give a correct judgement, very good.

Hex 64 says that you are trying to get your life/relationship back to normal but one mistake could lead to further chaos. Therefore, think and act very carefully in all dealings with your wife. Same as walking on thin ice, becareful or the relationship could break again.

 

[bradford]

Now Brad, that's Chris' bait...

Kinda sends a chill up yer spine, don't it?

 

[lightofreason]

Kinda sends a chill up yer spine, don't it?

tsk tsk - you live in fear grasshopper?

The realm of earth covers (a) FEAR and (b) DEVOTION TO ANOTHER/OTHERS ( we use the context, we blend in with it, to protect us)

The pair of 45,12 cover the exchange element, the five-phase metal element, of the earth octet of hexagrams. 45 is cooperative, 12 is competitive; 45 is unconditional, 12 is conditional.

From a strict emotional position, 45 reads "with/from fear comes love" - as compared to 12 that reads "with/from fear comes anger"

develop the themes and we have 45 as "with/from devotion to another comes intensity in expression" (a mirror doubled - lake in top - this is also reflective (!) of mimicry, replication, love, joy, adoration etc etc etc in that we have self-reflection (lake in bottom) doubled (lake in top))) - and for 12 we have "with/from devotion to another/others comes singlemindedness"

The Earth octet shares space with the Thunder octet in that they are variations on a theme - Earth covers social dynamics, Thunder more psychological - thus Earth focuses on some leader/guru/god (others) whereas Thunder is more focused on some idea, thing or person from a particular perspective (and so 17 shares space with 45 but the former is about finding/establishing a belief in someone/thing whereas 45 is past that in its focus on a congregation etc - the overall theme is the same, the bottom line gives the differences and so the variation on the theme covering cooperative exchange))

From the basic neurological perspective on 45 we have contractive blending (issues of wholeness) within which is operating expansive bonding (issues of sharing space with another/others) - these apply across the species (See the Species I Ching thread in the archives) and so the lifetime of such. LOCAL context will then add "colour'' to these universals - layers and layers of it! ;-)

From a post-modernism perspective, IDM covers the reducation of all agendas to one form - the core universals used in all specialisations to derive meaning. IOW all specialisations are metaphors/sources of analogy to describe reality (and ourselves)

The limitation of specialist perspectives - be they scientific or religious (humantities etc) aka science/philosophy - is that they act to filter and in so doing limit perspectives IF there are other perspectives sharing the same contexts. IDM is generalist in that it covers 'all there is' from the position of the neurological/sensory/emotional. THEN comes specialisations and we can choose which ones are our 'best fit' for our unique natures operating WITHIN our collective natures (particulars) operating WITHIN the collective that is our species ( and so the final, general, boundary)

From the scientific angle re self-referencing we can get the IC to describe itself through XOR-ing. Thus, for example, we have more details on 45 as:

Its infrastructure is described by analogy to characteristics of 25 - the generic vibe is in standing up in a crowd to express one's personal opinion etc (the variation on a theme here is to 12 where we fight against the attacks of others and so neutralise them) - from a religous perspective there is an evangelical aspect here (as compared to, say, an RC congregation where you sit and all is controlled, determined by the "priests" etc. Just as JC 'died for you' so even your formal prayer is organised/done 'for you'!)

45 gets its nourishment from a source described by analogy to 32 - commitment. It is commitement that 'feeds' and so sets the nature of the bone for the skeletal formation (the infrastructure) of 45.

45 start with, keeps coming back to, a nature described by analogy to 17 - following. Thus the core sense of celebrating a following starts with a following.

From the outside 45 has a 'look' described by analogy to 13 - likemindedness (loose association with others)

Look on the INSIDE and we see in 45 a state described by analogy to 07 - uniforming, uniformity ( "army of Christ" etc etc etc - we find the secular as well as in "army of Darwin" etc)

etc etc etc - for the summary of the full spectrum of 45 see:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/x011000.html

All fo the above comes out of understanding the nature of our being, our neurological/emotional make-up all derived from self-referencing and so all DETERMINED. THEN comes local context where we practice 'fee will' in link universals to context and deriving labels to represent that unique association.

Chris.

 

[autumn]

What was the practical difference for the querent either way? Understanding the beliefs or purposes of either the original authors or the translator isn't necessary as long as the structure of the concept is coherent. All readings are analogies. Any historical situation or historical understanding can be used to create an analogy to a present day situation.

It seemed to me Lily interpreted the hexagram as referring to the fact that when people are gathered together in the name of a common purpose, the group is strengthened by the common purpose, which becomes a third entity and source of bonding. How else would she interpret it? She can't remove herself from her place and time. Maybe the original authors would not translate the image sociologically, but the sociological translation doesn't detract from the essence of the image.

She translates given her knowledge and understanding of an image that may have had different specific connotations in its historical context, but the core concept of 45 remains. And that's enough for an oracle. It's an image being used to symoblize.

With an image described as "worshipping" or "engaging in pre-Enlightenment worshipping behavior", she can translate that image to the message intended for the querent without endorsing either understanding. Either way, the idea was to gather strength within his family by assembling together around a higher purpose for that family. Which was also congruent with 6.5, contending before the arbitrator.

 

[Lilly-La]

She translates given her knowledge and understanding of an image that may have had different specific connotations in its historical context, but the core concept of 45 remains. And that's enough for an oracle. It's an image being used to symoblize.

I share autumns opinion :bows: thank you

 

[Lilly-La]

Hi modesty,
did you ever ask the Yi what happens if you and your wife would stay seperate for another 'longer' time while visiting a mediator ?

 

[modesty]

Hi Lilly

Hi Lilly,

I did not ask the I ching this question because it is impractical in our situation, we are not dealing with a rational being (we go to the same extremely qualified therapist for months)and I guess I just have to play by ear. You woulxd probably hear from me again
modesty