Hexagram 45

[modesty]

Hi my wife just sent me an email saying she was missing our child very much and could not sleep. I asked the I Ching what is happening right now. I got 45 no moving line.
Does this mean I should try to persuade her to come back?
modesty

 

[willowfox]

Hi modesty,

I asked the I Ching what is happening right now. I got 45 no moving line.

You can try but like I said in the other thread, she needs time to resolve the issue of this marriage in her mind. Saying she is missing the baby is one thing but being with you and the little guy in the same room is an entirely different story.
Okay hex 45 means gathering the clan together but this is what you want. What does she want? Gathering together is good, but?
Again, I don't really see her coming back at the moment.

 

[modesty]

Hi Willowfox

What can I do right now? or at least what sort of question can I ask the Yi? SHould I just stay put? I simply told her that our little baby is missing her terribly but made no suggestion as what she should do.

modesty

 

[willowfox]

Hi modesty,

I am afraid that the decision of what to do lies with your wife, she is the person who will get on the plane and return, when she feels better, therefore I would leave her to find the answer. The only thing that I can suggest for you to do, is to get on with your life, accept that she is not with you, get yourself a baby sitter, look after yourself and the baby. You have asked many questions already about this situation, and basically they are saying have patience and let your wife sort out her problems, her inner conflicts.

 

[luz]

And maybe don't put too much pressure on her.. Tell her to take her time, that the baby and you will be fine for now and you will both be waiting for her when she decides to return. I know that is not how you feel but I don't think that putting pressure on her helps at all.

 

[modesty]

hi Willowfox, Lightangel

Yes, I think you are right. I have taken the approach you guys suggested. Let the wife have a bit of space and in the mean time, I try my best to look after the little one.
Thanking you all,

modesty

 

[bradford]

The core meaning of this hexagram is Security.
If you read the text with this in mind a lot of the
puzzlement goes away.
In this case it's about Reassurances

 

[lightofreason]

The core meaning of this hexagram is Security.
If you read the text with this in mind a lot of the
puzzlement goes away.
In this case it's about Reassurances

the focus is more on security in numbers, the celebration of faith is done with others, the context elicits reassurance. 45 pairs with 12 where we fight a particular attack on one's faith. 45 is unconditional, 12 conditional.

to flesh out 45, the infrastructure is described by analogy to the general traits of 25 (express one's personal perspective in a crowd), as is its source of nourishment described by analogy to the general traits of 32 and so commitment issues.

from the OUTSIDE 45 takes on a 'look' described by analogy to traits of 07 - uniformity, uniforming (all 'painted' the same and associations to a 'higher' authority). On the INSIDE
we see a look described by traits of 13 - likemindedness.

The summary of the full spectrum is in http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/x011000.html

Chris.

 

[bradford]

the focus is more on security in numbers, the celebration of faith is done with others, the context elicits reassurance.
Chris.

That's certainly a big part of it at least. In fact, the old asian image of the arrows
"gathered together" into a bundle so as to be unbreakable fits the Chinese word
Cui4 pretty perfectly.
But personal preparedness and equilibrium are just as important here. The gestalt
of 45 needs also to incorporate the image of the lake over the earth. That water
can just as well be the "collectedness" of an individual alone.

 

[lightofreason]

lake in upper covers more so intensity in expression (self-reflection doubled). Emotionally it covers joy/love and we can get two emotional patterns:

negative root : with/from fear comes joy. (the focus on security through numbers)
positive root: with/from devotion to another/other comes joy. (the focus on celebration of that devotion)

the sexual element in joy covers the focus on mimicry, mirror, replicate and so a many-from-one aspect.

the 25 XOR link to infrastructure brings out the personal contribution to the collective where one's personal involvement comes out combined with the personal involvement of each of the others in the group - as it does with 12 in that the neutralising of the attacks of others is from both a collective position as it is from as personal one.

the outside look of 07 covers a collective perspective, but INSIDE we see 13 where it covers individuals being unique minded but each sharing some aspect to be likeminded. The associations are 'loose', we meet for the celebration etc but not necessarily outside of that.

If we employ 24-ness and so identify the 'beginning' of 45, what it keeps coming back to, is described by analogy to 17 and so the focus on personal finding of someone/thing to follow.

Note, if we focus on 12, so ITS 24-ness is described by analogy to 25 - one keeps coming back to asserting one's perspective free of considerations of others and in so doing is prepared to fight for it, neutralise any attacks. In the IC focus on change, this nature can lead to stagnation, sterility etc but for the individual the action solidifies the faith. Thus the PAIR of 45,12 (as they are in the binary order) sets a structure that includes the context mentioned by bradford of reassuarance where the dark roots of earth in fear is defended against through devotion to another/others and a preparedness to be competitive about it just as being cooperative about it (the METAL natures, the EXCHANGE natures of lake and heaven)

Chris.

 

[Lilly-La]

Just a note on the topic:

the yi says in 45:

"Where men are to be gathered together, religious forces are needed. But
there must also be a human leader to serve as the center of the group. In
order to be able to bring others together, this leader must first of all be
collected within himself."

I had the feeling it means: you (& your wife) should see a consultant (a spirtual leader) - you need someone who brings you and your wife together.

Just a thought....

 

[rosada]

If it is impossible to connect with a "spiritual leader" you may also get value from reading a marrage self-help book together.

 

[bradford]

Just a note on the topic:
the yi says in 45:
"Where men are to be gathered together, religious forces are needed. But
there must also be a human leader to serve as the center of the group. In
order to be able to bring others together, this leader must first of all be
collected within himself."

Hi Lilly-
Just to be a little more clear, the Yi doesn't say that.
The author of your book on the Yi says that.
Nor does the Yi advovate religious forces.
This is the author's missionary agenda
It merely describes religious practice as one of the
main ways that human beings find security.

That said, I assume this comment is on line 5, where
t'were indeed best the leader first collect himself or
gather his wits about him.

 

[jesed]

Hi Bradford

Devil's advocate

1.- Didn't you wrote in your comment to 45.0, based on what the Yi did says (notice that the quote of Wilhelm doesn't belong to 45.5, but also to 45.0):
a) The sovereing prayed to come back infused wit new strengh? (Isn't this some kind of "spiritual force")
b) The goal of this was create and maintain the tribal bonds (isn't this some kind of gethering man together?)

2.- Didn't you include on your work what the Tuan Zhuan (part of what the Yi did says) says about
a) "The sovereign aproaches to the temple" implies to convey the filial offering...
b) "Rewarding to encounter a mature human being making an offering" (this person is the same sovereing, isn't? beacuse is the one making the offering) implies concentrating with dignity (somemething alike "collected within himself")

3.- What you had in your work is REALLY so diferent from the quote of Wilhelm?

You are right about point the XX century misionary agenda... but what about the actual XXI posmodernist agenda to reject traditional undertandings just beacuse are rooted in traditional religious ideas?

Best wishes

 

[Lilly-La]

Hi bradford,

i cited from the Yi:
http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#45

i did not think or liked to advise modesty to seek a 'christian/religious spiritual leader'.

A spiritual leader can be a doctor or a phsycologist or a pastor...
I had the feeling the Yi says to modesty: seek someone who can help you and your wife. A third person (Yi: a spiritual leader) is needed.

 

[bradford]

m advocatus diaboli
There is a big difference between advocating religious belief
and describing religious behavior. The Yi does the latter.
Not the same as saying "religious forces are needed".

 

[jesed]

Indeed, describe a religious practice, and understand that practice is a "need" are 2 diferent things.

Now, in a religious-based society (like the society where the Yi was wrote), what would be more likely to be in the mind of Yi's authors?

Isn't it a probably fact (I mean, not probed "once and for good"... but more likely to be a fact) that Zhou-society thought that religous practice was needed to reinforce the unity and sovereign-ness of the Zhou?

Wasn't religious burocracy a mayor-importance realm to remain ruling?

Wasn't a "need" to justify the new dinasty with a religious belief ( the Mandate of Heaven)?

That is was I was talking about with posmodernist agenda.

I can agree (from the actual cosmovision) that making a religious practice is not a need to be advocate.... but is this actual cosmovision the same than the auothors?

Best wishes

 

[Sparhawk]

You are right about point the XX century misionary agenda... but what about the actual XXI posmodernist agenda to reject traditional undertandings just beacuse are rooted in traditional religious ideas?

Hmm... A Postmodernist agenda should be that there should be NO such agenda, any. "Agendas", of any type, and by definition, have a tendency to be narrow in scope and wide in ambition. They are one-dimensional entities and people who walk through life tied to them, be it by faith, conviction or carried-in-the-lot (as in the case of war), remain their eternal slaves. Agendas are the human justification for pack animal behavior in beings that should be far above it in the evolutionary ladder.

The prefix "Post" should indicate a natural evolution over something that was part of a common past in the case of defined cultural parameters. The pursuit of "agendas" is a timeless one and do not belong to any particular cultural parameter. As for your personal view that there is a "postmodernist agenda" that rejects traditional religious ideas, well, I don't know where you get your news from but, from where I observe the world, it is going to hell pretty much along a few cracking lines that can be all traced back to a number of given religions. So much for rejection of traditional religious ideas.

BTW, have you read the book you were asking about the other day, "Yijing and Chinese Politics: Classical Commentary and Literati Activism in the Northern Song period"? I'm reading it. I find it a great insight into Chinese political traditions. What's surprising to me, and makes me chuckle more often than not while I'm reading it, is how many parallels I find between the described period of history in China, the struggle of the people and government, and what's happening today. The time span described in the book is big enough to have included their equivalent "modern" and "postmodern" periods, and small enough to enable the reader to find easy parallels. If you were asking for opinions before buying it, you should.

Agendas may change but the constant is that they exist.

L

 

[jesed]

Hi Luis

Great comment, thanks

Yes, posmodernism (as cultural ideology) would say that his attempt is to avoid agendas; but as any other ideology, it is rooted in some interest and decisions wich are hidden but presented as "natural" facts (you can see the book "El vuelo de Anteo", I guess you'll like it). So, agendas exist... even in posmodernism.

Of course, I agree with "The pursuit of "agendas" is a timeless one and do not belong to any particular cultural parameter", but every particular cultural parameter stablish the contents of it's own agenda. So, both modernism and posmodernism pursuit it's agenda... but the particular agenda of modernism and the particular agenda of posmodernism are diferent. They both share the reject to religious believes, but from diferents theoretical justifications and (most important) from diferent hidden interests.

Now, about religious foundamentalism... in the way I see it, it is the other face of the coin of reaction to modernist agenda. I mean, facing the ilustrated agenda of modernism (based on rational thought), there are 2 reactions: posmodernism (a light-thought, against heavy-thought's as structuralism or marxism, for example) and religious foundamentalism.

This explain why NOW, the Catholic Pope makes a defense of modernism (when historically, the Catholic Church fought against modernism), as a way to confront both posmodernism (he reduces posmodernism to moral/religious relativism) and islam (he reduces islam to religious foundamentalism). See the speach of Ratzinger in Ratisbona. (You could find interesting this article: http://www.atrio.org/?p=380)

I'm still waiting to receive the book about Northen Song period. Your comment increases my interest in it.

Best wishes

 

[bradford]

Now, in a religious-based society (like the society where the Yi was wrote), what would be more likely to be in the mind of Yi's authors?

Isn't it a probably fact (I mean, not probed "once and for good"... but more likely to be a fact) that Zhou-society thought that religous practice was needed to reinforce the unity and sovereign-ness of the Zhou?

Excellent questions. Indeed. I would suggest that the thing most on the mind of Zhouyi authors was to shed some light on the nature of religious practice for the benefit of the Zhou court and most particlualrly the young nobility or Junzi, who were still learning the art of rule. Certainly the religious beliefs of the time were commonly known, and not in need of preaching. So too were the nature and the steps of the rituals and forms that the nobility had no choice but to go through. What remained to be taught to the rulers was an understanding of Why things were this way, what was the psychological dynamic of religion, what were the people looking for. What would measure success in religious practice? Certainly, like you say, unity and the sovereign-ness of the Zhou. But if you recall, the Zhouyi authors also incorporate an inderstanding of the emptiness of ritual (the top line of Marrying Maiden, for instance). They had an ability to see through the superficial aspects and get to the heart of the thing. They were not simply followers of the religion - they had a demonstrable sense of the psychology of religion, which to my mind puts them a few steps above Preacher or Priest.

 

[jesed]

Hi Bradford

The fact that a religious belief is commonly known doesn't make the conclusion that there is no need to preach it. Example: the religious catholic belief on the virginity of Maria is commonly known... and you can hear preach about it all the time

"What remained to be taught to the rulers was an understanding of Why things were this way". Agree.. Now (again, devil's advocate). If explaining why things were that way, the authors used religious practice to explain the gathering together......

About the emptiness of the ritual... of course. But that was part of their religious belief. But if you recognice in them "an ability to see through the superficial aspects and get to the heart of the thing"... then religious practices were the heart of the "gathering together" thing... isn't?. So, they wasn't just describing a practice.. they was describing that religious practice was the way gethering together works.

About preacher and priest vs someone with sense of the psychology of religion.. well. THAT is an actual concept of preacher and priest. The fact is that in the religious burocracy of the Zhou they called priest to some of the officials.

Best wishes

 

[jesed]

Talking about the heart of the thing

The heart of the thing on my "devil's advocate" participation is:
It is OK to understand an ancient text at the light of our nowadys culture. But, to say that the text is saying X, when X belongs to our culture and is in oposition to the culture where the text was written, is an excess.

I had pointed to this issue with Ewald and with Bruce, in 2 diferent threads.

Best wishes

 

[bradford]

But how do you know if something belongs to only one culture and not to a neurological or psychological substratum held in common by human beings as a species.
I would submit that this is precisely the problem with the modernists - they overestimate the importance of culture with regard to the very typical human behavior patterns described in the Yi. The Yijing resomnates with Us today precisely because of the universality of these behavior patterns across cultures. Memes are important parts of the puzzle, but we mustn't neglect the staying power of genes. This is also a huge problem with the deconstructionists - they reduce out all of the threads tying our common humanity back into antiquity, back to people who had pretty much the same sort of brains and feelings and human relationshipsas we do.

 

[jesed]

Hi Bradford

Well.. I'm not saying that "religious as heart of gathering together" belongs only to Zhou culture.

In fact... this same thought belongs to the mayority of cultures, except "western" culture.

But the diference between the idea of a) "religious as heart of gathering together" and b) the idea of "religious not as heart of gathering together" is indeed a cultural diference and not based on "neurological" issues.

Now, would yo say that both ideas ("a" and "b") represents equally the kind of thought of Yi's authors?

Or would you say that one is more likelly to belongs to Yi's authors ideas?

Best wishes

 

[bradford]

But the diference between the idea of a) "religious as heart of gathering together" and b) the idea of "religious not as heart of gathering together" is indeed a cultural diference and not based on "neurological" issues.
Best wishes

I mean neurological in the same sense as Jung meant archetypes - species-wide inherited tendencies of behavior and preception.
Religious is often the look of gathering together. I would have to say coldly though that the heart is insecurity and of course a basic biological drive for fellowship (evolved out of survival-related parameters) that will use just about anything as an excuse to satisfy itself.
There was psychoogy of religion back then, as well as religion itself, and I think our authors were starting to understand it. I do think that they had taken at least one step back from mindlessly believing what they were told was true by the masses. They were instead advising the rulers on how best to work with this pressure from the masses in order to optimize their rule, why they needed what they needed, and how to deal with these insecurities.

 

[bradford]

Here's a concrete example:
We have English sayings:
Pull yourself together
Gather your wits
Collect yourself
Come together, right now, over me....
But a bundle of ten arrows is not so easily broken
Where two or more are gathered....
I take reguge in the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha

Is it some pure accident that the Chinese, in Cui4, use the same metaphors to describe people and parts of the self coming together for strength and security? Or might it not be a common way of perceiving that crosses all tribal boundaries across the great stream?
You have to be a real modernist to say "well, that's their primitive culture, not our modern one".

 

[bruce_g]

"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."

 

[bruce_g]

To the original question(er) on this thread, I have for 45:

Gather

Gather your wits and your means. Both will be needed.

 

[Sparhawk]

But how do you know if something belongs to only one culture and not to a neurological or psychological substratum held in common by human beings as a species.

Now Brad, that's Chris' bait...

Jesed, with all due respect to the creators of the Yi, a few millennia ago in some remote mountain or obscure dungeon, the Yi doesn't belong to the Chinese anymore. Although we can "study" the text and the history of the classic to the most miniscule detail we can muster, it is only empirical information. Its practical use, however, can be adapted to any other culture. The fact that it has reached our present time with such force and actuality attest to that fact. Nobody can pretend to know what exactly was the intention of the creators. On the other hand, we can still benefit from what can interpreted.

L

PS: Now, don't come back to me saying that a "practical use" of a divinatory system is also "empirical information". Whole empires and dynasties have been built over the advise of the Yi...

 

[modesty]

Hi all

I did not visit this thread for a few days and was overwhelmed with the responses. I am not too sure if I got a lot out of the later comments as they are a little above my head.
My take is that hex 45 says there is a need for us to do something to keep the family together. I will try to see if, when my wife comes back, we can get back to therapy together and resolve any issues. If not, at least we know that we have tried all and go for a clean cut.
BTW, my wife indicated that she is coming back (but did not say what she got in mind). I asked the Yi what would happen when she is back, I got Hex 6 + line 5 => 64.

Any thoughts on Hex 6+5=>64?

Modesty