Hexagrams compared to astrology planets

[jeanystar]

thanks candid.. and i understand, pagan, I hear you!

 

[omshante]

hi P

yes the i ching can have a rather numbing effect but it can also be a soft pillow, to rest ones head. is all relative and subjective. best of all you can leave it and return and it still feels like a friend. i have had times when i have completely abandoned it and times i was as mad as hell and yet it is still my best friend. the i ching resonates not 'dictates'. i could say the same thing about my work as an artist. to be able to sustain oneself spiritually and physically via a creative process is a real luxury. nowadays a successful artist is 'sane' with great wealth. insane and poor is archaic. there is a lot of loneliness about these days, isn't it great that one can have direct communication with the 'wise one within'......phew!

do you know who your best friend is?


you


now what about the aformentioned archetypes.......

martin, martin, are you still there?

omshante

 

[martin]

Uh, yes, I suspect I'm still here, or at least somewhere.
Hard to be sure though.

After all, even the here-and-now is just an idea ..

 

[omshante]

oh my gawd - existentialism!!!

 

[martin]

Existentialism? Awre you sure?
I thought it was just me, being confused and disoriented again.

 

[omshante]

tut tut, martin. did your teacher never tell you, 'if you have nothing to say, say nothing at all.......'

hee hee

O

 

[martin]

What are you saying?

 

[martin]

Interesting conversation, by the way.

 

[martin]

Let me ask you a question: if you paint, do you always paint SOMETHING? Or do you sometimes just paint?

 

[candid]

Everyone's an art critic.

 

[martin]

I was looking for dichotomies that can replace introvert-extravert and see, they pop up in this thread (clipart light bulb)!

The yang trigrams (I called them introvert) are focused and go with a sense of purpose. They are time oriented. Forward-backward.
The yin trigrams are more into freewheeling and drifting. Space oriented. Sideways.

Yin shows a sense of no purpose and that makes a lot of sense.

Critical remarks (yang?) are welcome.

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Martin-
Here is an old Western treatment of dichotomy.
Also, in the intro to my Xiao Xiang chapter I have a little cautionary note on mixing up the many types of dichotomy to questionable or ridiculous effect (such as: man is to woman as good is to evil as great is to small)

The Pythagorean opposites are recorded in Book Alpha 986a ff. of
Aristotle's Metaphysica:

"But others of these very philosophers affirm that first principles
are ten in number, denominated in accordance with the following
coordinate series, namely:

Bound - Infinity
Odd Even
Unity Plurality
Right Left
Male Female
Rest Motion
Straight Crooked
Light Darkness
Good Bad
Square Oblong

In the same manner seems Alcmaeon of Croton to have formed his
opinion; and this philosopher certainly either from those just named,
or they from this person, have derived this their theory; for Alcmaeon
had reached the age of manhood when Pythagoras was an old man, but he
enumerated his sentiments in a manner similar with the Pythagoreans.
For he affirms that the greater portion of things human may be reduced
to two classes, called them contrarieties; not distinguished as these
had distinguished them, but such as were of any casual sort whatever,
as for example:

White Black
Sweet Bitter
Good Bad
Small Great

This philosopher, indeed, then, has indefinitely thrown out his
opinions about the rest; but the Pythagoreans have declared both how
numerous, and which these contrarieties are." McMahon, John, trans.
Aristotle: The Metaphysics. New York: Prometheus Books, 1991.

 

[bradford_h]

Martin-
I don't know idf you have these two dissertations, but they are musts for serious students of the Zhouyi. These are two discussions of early dichotomy development in the Zhouyi.

Kunst I.2, The Structure of the Text, Arrangement of Low and High Words, p.38-43
Shaughnessy III.6, Intra-Hexagrammatic Relatonships, pp 158-168

 

[martin]

Thanks Brad. I love these ancient philosophers. They are so pure.
Unfortunately I don't have Word on this computer so I cannot read all your pages.
I also don't have the dissertations that you mention. Guess they are not downloadable? (is that an English word

)

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Martin-

It won't be long now until I have everything available in pdf's, the whole thousand pages in two volumes. Then everyone can see both the Chinese and English. About another month & I'll make an announcement.

No, the dissertations have to be purchased through University Microfilms (info on my onscreen bibliography). They're surprisigly cheap and you can even get them thru your library. If you're really into the structure of the Yi (Xiang Shu), consider the Fendos dissertation too. It's got a great survey of the Han speculations.

 

[martin]

Hi Brad,

"It won't be long now until I have everything available in pdf's .."
That's great! And I can probably get the dissertations through the library of the university.
Thanks!

 

[candid]

Brad, good stuff. LiSe recently turned me onto a link that you?ve posted elsewhere, which seems helpful:
Greg Richter?s Pin Yin translation

Looking forward to your release.

 

[pagan]

Hi Martin;
Someone posted this to another forum I am on:

"There is a whole class of men who at the moment of reaction to a given situation at first draw back a little as if with an unvoiced ?No?, and only after that are able to react; and there is another class who, in the same situation, come forward with an immediate reaction, apparently confident that their behavior is obviously right. The former class would therefore be characterized by a certain negative relation to the object, and the latter by a positive one . . . the former class corresponds to the introverted and the second to the extraverted attitude. (5)

In his division of extravert and introvert, Jung referred primarily to the psychology of the consciousness, or external components. This meant that a person described as either extravert or introvert displayed habitual reactions that were characteristic of their psychological type towards their environment and the people within it. Jung believed it was likely that the majority of individuals favored one attitude over the other, leaving the secondary type to operate at an unconscious or inferior level, manifesting it only as required. The differentiation between these psychological types seemed to be noticeable early in life, such as during the primary years. (6) "

Didn't you say Jung had a different interpretation of introvert and extrovert?

 

[martin]

Jung defines introversion as a kind of initial withdrawal from the object, like in the first part (that ends with (5)) of your quote.
Jung is talking here about an inner psychological process while the more popular meaning of introvert/extravert refers to behavior (more or less outgoing, spontaneous, etcetera).
I thought that Jung used introvert/extravert only to denote an inner process, but when I reread what he wrote about it in his book about psychological types it turned out that it is less clear than I thought it was. It seems that he sometimes does use introvert/extravert also in the behavioral sense.

Anyway, I think that space/time covers it better.
So we can forget about introvert/extravert.

 

[lightofdarkness]

Martin,

differentiate / integrate

AKA

XOR /AND
push away / pull together
pull along / push along
competitive / cooperative

The initial focus on a new experience can be to push it away if too close so as to see it better - reflecting the differentiation bias overall.

The dynamics of XOR/AND, their oscillation as we use them to process information means one sets the root context and all else follows. This gets into the notion of 'first impressions' where that impression can be hard to change once set!

Our brains, when experiencing something NEW or UNKNOWN will use "AND" dynamics through a focus on surrounding context to aid in developing a label and so a KNOWN state. This reflects the linking of things into a 'point' that is then labelled - and so a IMPLICIT knowing gives way to an explicit one.

From the realm of male/female 'differences', so the male responds to the direct expression, can take it literally, as the female can see past it and into the relational dynamics 'behind' the expression.

It is this ability to detect patterns in background that make females good at such Mathematics areas as statistics; pattern matching correlates with the more 'intuitive' natures where once we have the intuition we then have to work backwards to derive the formal details.

This is not restricted to females, just more common due to the intuition bias in most. That said, in the USA the MBTI types are 70% focused on S (sensing) and 30% on N (intuiting).

When we order the MBTI with the IC we have a social bias to water, wind, lake, and heaven (70%) vs earth, mountain, thunder, and fire (30%)

These will differ as you consider different collectives, but if we take the order and split it into two threads, yin and yang, then we have a pattern of:

000, 001, 010, 011
100, 101, 110, 111


First two columns in each row are 'intuitives' an so reflect 30% of population, last two columns in each row are 'sensing' and so reflect 70% of population.

If we generalise further then the USA is dominated by security seekers and sensation seekers (70%) with the remainder being identity seekers and solution seekers (problem solvers) (30%)

This 30/70 skew favours an overly positive perspective, can be fundamentalist, more YANG than YIN (and so skewed from the usual 50/50 perspective).

If you look at the yarrow stick derivation method it is in fact the REVERSE of the above 30/70 distribution, it is biased to YIN.

This reflects the overall development from yin-biased to yang-biased collectives and so a movement from AND to XOR.

Re the FUNCTION of introvert/extravert - it is not included in the IDM model of the MBTI in that it does not come into the picture until the level of 16s - and so the use of XNTP etc in the ICPlus/MBTI associations where X means 'undifferentiated I/E'.

The other dichotomies used in the MBTI are more of STRUCTURE than process

Chris.

 

[martin]

'differentiate / integrate'

Sure Chris, I hear you, but see my post in the other thread (Divination, etc -> Link to some more etymology).