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Hexagrams of sleeping and dreaming?

peter

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Hello all!

Just a thought came to me: what hexagrams reflect processes of sleeping and dreaming? While in a sleep, a man is "excluded" from the daylight reality. Maybe these hexagrams have to contain Kan trigram? And also it is interesting to examine awakening and getting to sleep: have these hexagrams to be opposite? Or inverse?

I suggest only, that sleeping may be Hex. 62, it is like Kan trigram made of "4 images", not of "2 poles". But what are hexagrams for changing from being awake to sleeping (and vice versa)? Do you have suggestions?

Sorry if there already was a topic with these question, but I couldn't find it with "search board".

With best regards.
 

hilary

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Great idea for a thread, thank you, Peter!

Associations I've gathered from experience:

20, Seeing, for incubating a dream - to 'see all that's there', invite the spirit in.

36, Brightness hidden, for the way understanding forms in dreams - when conscious awareness is hidden, and you're removed from active struggle with the world. Release, solutions, can emerge from this (hexagram 40 is the nuclear hexagram). And it's a night-time hexagram, of course.

I don't know about falling asleep and waking - how about 33 and 34? But that's not based on experience , just the idea.
 

peter

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Hilary,

It seems to me that #20 is an active seeing, contemplation, observation. You concentrate on your senses. Dream, as I feel, is a free floating - that's why I suppose hexagrams must have Kan trigram.

36 - yes, I feel the same, it's a night hexagram when unconscious reveals itself in some strange forms.

Maybe also hexagrams 56, 9, 59 have some relation to these matters?..

With best regards.
 

hilary

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I was thinking about 31, too. I suppose any hexagram could point to any theme, in one way or another. Wonder what our choices say about our dreams...


'Incubating' a dream means asking for a particular dream as you fall asleep - asking to be shown something or to have some question answered. In that it seems to me very like making the ablutions and then watching for what comes.
 

peter

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31 - "Interacting"? Hmm... What interaction is supposed in a dream? Mountain in the bottom, Lake on the top, "mountain and lake exchange qi".

Yes, a dream may point at any theme, but what is a dream itself, what's its essence?

So #20 can be viewed as an "conscious dream" (sorry if I used an incorrect term), as I remember, in "Yoga of dreams" such a "conscious dream" is conditio sine qua non, so to say. Maybe Chinese use this hexagram to achieve consciousness in dreams.

Here a related question also arises: what is a hexagram for illusions? 22?

Maybe also 5 marks "falling asleep", while on king Wen's circle of trigrams passing from Qian to Kan means finishing "conscious actions", as I understand.

With best regards.
 
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bruce

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Illusions are also manifestations. I think that's contained in 16, also. Dreams are both. Lucid dreaming might be 16.4, through a process of 45? Though 16.5 is what changes to 45... perhaps the opposite or reflection. hmm
 
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bruce

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16.4 changes to 2 - openess.

Peter, this is a tough one for so early in the morning!
 

lightofdarkness

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They all apply. Take ANY notion and the IC applies in describing it since the IC reflects how our brains categorise, conceptualise, symbolise, metaphorcate.

What makes difference will be the particular language generated in using the IC to describe sleep. Zoom-in and it will describe dreaming etc etc etc
 
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bruce

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true, b u t .... not all connect as well. I mean, you can make anything fit if you have to. The question is: what is the best fit?
 

peter

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Chris,

I just pointed it out: of course, you can link all with all. But I asked: what is the essence of these processes? IOW, what hexagram reflects processes in brain while sleeping? And also - in falling asleep and awakening?

========

Bruce,

Can you explain a bit more, why you believe 16 belongs to sleeping? Is it about "uncontrolled actions" (Kun under Zhen)?
 
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bruce

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Peter,

16 not to sleep but to dreams, is what I meant. LiSe uses "weaving images" for 16. I think that's an overlooked aspect of 16.

I see 24 as sleep - returning to a state of rest, not traveling on foot, rejuvenating the body system.

However,

A couple thoughts on 31 as dreams.
? lake dances above the sleeping earth
? dreamer takes a maiden
? influence works through mutual attraction and interaction between conscious and subconscious/unconscious

31.4 is interesting as a nightmare, I think.
31.5 a 'spiritual' dream?
31.6 as a superficial dream?
 

lightofdarkness

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Bruce, Peter,

from the regular network, universals, position they are all linked together and serve as potentials - waiting for a local context to ground them.

Finding the 'best fit' for the LOCAL context is fine, e.g. selection of hex 16, but due to the integration, if you XOR 16 with all of the others and you will get a description of the 16-ness, and so sleep-nature of each hexagram - demonstrating how all of them will give you 'meaning' re the subject you have selected for analysis.

16 for me is about the use of foresight, planning etc and it shares space with 35 (bringing something into the light). 16 is the unconditional, 35 the conditional. They both 'look ahead' and as such have aspects of the imagination at work (what could be) so I can see the possibility of some link to dreaming etc - but my point is given whatever hexagram each of you select as the 'best fit', it serves as a key to unlock its expression across the whole of the IC using XOR-ing.

Chris.
 

lightofdarkness

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BTW 16 is the 'controller' of line position 4 and so the position associated with the senior minister in their service to the king (line position 5). The purpose of that service IS to plan, to forsee, and so give advice to the ruler. You can interpret this as the unconscious serving the conscious, or a hierarchy of self serving psyche, psyche serving ego etc etc.

Hex 35 combines qualities of 16 (line position 4)with 23 (line position 6) where the 23 aspect is on bringing out a particular, favouring one over many, and using that particular to establish meaning (in its natural form, 23 has a spiritual element in housekeeping/devotion-to-another). Thus the 16 aspect and the 23 aspect unite to give the focus on bringing a particular into the light, as foresight can do, as planning can do etc.
 

lightofdarkness

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NOW use XOR as in :

how does hex 30 plan/foresee/enthuse, what is its 16-ness?

000100 16
101101 30
----------
101001 22

22 covers (!) facading, gloss over, pretty-up to draw attention. That act can elicit enthusiasm etc and covers advertising 'what could be' etc etc. through use of attractive images that elicit desires/needs/wants even if behind the facade is 'space' ;-)

If we interpret 16 as the unconscious or as dreaming etc then we see here the use of 'beautified' images etc... which is what the psyche does in that it is more vision oriented than the ego that is more audition oriented.

30 focuses on the use of guidance (lower position of fire) in which is operating direction-setting (an ideology - the upper position of fire, guidance doubled) so I think you can see the 16-ness expression THROUGH 30 being described by analogy to 22.

35 has fire in the top position and this elicits the conditional focus, the focus on a particular. With the earth bottom we have a hexagram that reads - with devotion to another/others comes a sense of direction/ideology; this covering the bringing of 'something' into the light.

Chris.
 

lightofdarkness

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BTW - since 16 maps to line position 4 and so to the position of the senior minister, so we can flesh-out the traits of that minister for each hexagram by XOR-ing the hexagram with 16.

Thus the basic traits of the senior minister in 30 are described by analogy to 22.

Implicit in this is that the exaggerated traits would be described by analogy to 47 (22s "opposite").

To work with the line positions we XOR hexagrams with:

23 - sage, line 6
08 - ruler, line 5
16 - senior minister, line 4
15 - local lord, line 3
07 - supervisor, line 2
24 - worker, line 1

We can change the labels to reflect hierarchy and so use the same methodology to extract the single line position 'natures' within each hexagram. From there we move on to more than one line. E.g. the characteristics of line position 5 and 2 give us hex 08 + hex 07 = hex 29 and so showing the main focus of this pair in containment/control. THEN XOR that with all of the others to get the LOCAL forms of containment/control etc etc etc

I shall make the above into another thread as well in that it takes us into different areas than sleep/dreaming ;-)

Chris.
 

heylise

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I like 16 a lot for dreaming. One of its meanings is 'sight-seeing'! The trigrams make sense too, thunder emerging from the earth, or from the darkness of total yin, total surrender.
I don't think 'foreseeing' only means to look into the future, it is rather 'seeing beyond the facts-now', and that can include a future, but just as well past or present. Its meanings include also "pleased, comfort; travel, a trip; to cheat, lie, hesitate, indecision". All of them can be applied to dreams. Dreams are lies - or a way to 'see' things, they can be clear - or one mess of undecided things.

I really like 16.4, both the image and the hex it changes into. Line 4 is the most active of the mind-lines, the minister taking care of all the affairs. The one who has to be silent in order to sleep or dream. But 16.6 is not bad either: very much like the moment just before or after I wake up. With some tangled images lingering in my mind, or a heavy head from something which seems to have no coherence at all.

How about 27 for sleeping? Again thunder, but now inside, renewal and new growth: REM-sleep. Inside of mountain, the body, the self. Sleep as a means to restore energy and to nourish the body. All lines which have to do with the human world are yin. Only the two 'outside the world' are yang. When I see my dogs sleeping, it looks like that: busily moving their feet (line 1) and their spirit (top line), everything else is surrendering itself to sleep, is yin.

Hex.20, wind above earth, the stirrings coming from the earth. It is contemplating, but the trigrams seem also to tell what is being contemplated. Guan Yin, the goddess of compassion, listens to the sounds emerging from the earth (kun is also the masses). Good image for listening to the meaning of dreams, looking for the message. Even when you do that still sleeping, not aware of it.

Thinking about 31.. makes sense as your 'self' exchanging with you, or making itself heard and felt. Lake, exchange, above mountain. Yes, maybe the kind of dreams you hope for in order to find insight in something. "Please tell me what he thinks of me", the famous 31-question.

Personlly I cannot really connect with water and dreams. Water and sleep, yes. But dreams and thunder makes a lot of sense to me. Especially thunder and earth combined. Mm, 24. Is thunder within the earth. Maybe the dreams you cannot remember, but which restore your mental balance? Or the origin of dreams? A dreaming period starting with 24, and slowly developing into 16..

LiSe
 

peter

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So - 16 means "some very active images that pop out from your unconscious"? Well, I have to agree that lower Kun fits more to matters about dreams, so the whole row may represent some dreams: 12 (nightmares which origin from strong suppression of unconscious), 45 (joyful dreams), 35 (dreams-insights, clarifying dreams), 16 (lively dreams), 20 (still dreams, contemplative dreams), 8 (dark dreams, like flying in tunnels), 23 (eclectic dreams, with many strange leaps), 2 (deep dreams, very little or no images at all).

There also appear Gen and Zhen trigrams... I thought about 27, but I rather incline to 62 - it is like 16, both Ken and Gen at the bottom represent Earth element.

Maybe 31 is "a kind of dreams", but I still can't see why it can represent dreaming as itself. As was said, all hexagrams can represent this or that sort of dreams, no wonder.

I just mean "sleeping" as an "everyday activity", in King Wen's circle it is represented with Kan trigram in the North and midnight.

Maybe I'll try to ask I Ching using yarrow-stalks or something else. And report any significant result.

==================

Chris,

I don't like your non-traditional imaginations. You go in very different and very own areas finally, so try to use less words at least.

With best regards.
 

lightofdarkness

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Peter, I could not care less if you like it or not - the traditional material is 'out of date' -- too restricted in its perspectives, too limiting in enabling the IC to move on and become more accepted and used. IOW one needs to move into the 21st century AD, not remain stuck in the 10th century BC.

To make that move we have to recognise the research that has come out of Science re neurosciences, psychology, cognitive science etc etc etc. Now of YOU find that a problem it is YOUR problem, not mine.

Perhaps you want to keep the original to form a 'secret society'? you can feel you belong to some 'special' group and so maintain your identity that way? - IOW your identity is wrapped up in the traditional and to go beyond the traditional is too much for you? too hard?

LOL! Get real Peter, the species is in need of 'updating' re its belief systems etc and understanding the universal IC can aid in doing that - sticking with the traditional just smacks of elitism, old-boys societies etc all mixed with fear.

Most traditionalists have spent a lot of time in their devotions to the IC and so can find what the universal IC presents as 'upsetting' in that it can show a LOT of material they failed to see and/or bring out. Furthermore, the traditional perspective is one of MANY, a small world network of many small world networks, IOW there is a LOT you are missing with your current approach. Now, if you WANT to remain cocooned in that traditional realm, that is up to you but for me we need to move on and so I will continue with my perspective, as I assume you will continue with yours ;-)

In the long run, the law of requisite variety holds, the system with the most choices will take over in the end ;-)

Chris.
 

lightofdarkness

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Now, to get back to 16 and LiSe's comments. I think these are LOCAL and thats fine, but from the UNIVERSAL position, the nature of 16 is set by identifying its '27-ness' (its begin/end if you like in that it covers lines 1 and 6). The 27-ness of 16 is described by analogy to hex 21 - a hexagram associated with problem solving in general and the use of foresight/planning stems from exactly that.

In return, the skeletal form of 21 is 16, reflecting the 'soul' of 21 being in planning/foreseeing etc and that moves us into the setting-down of 'preferred' perspectives, laws, rules etc, algorithm/formula creation etc - all properties of 21 where we chew over problems to find solutions.

We can map-out the full set of aspects of 16, we derive its spectrum as given in:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/x001000.html

.. and in working through that spectrum get a very good sense of what 16 is all about, in terms sourced in the IC structure itself, not just in external interpretations.

Given these universal relationships, it is EASY to project into those general forms such notions as dreams/unconscious etc 'serving' consciousness - as we have the senior minister serve the ruler.

IF we go way down to the beginnings of categories, 16 is expansive binding (sharing TIME with self/another/others) in a context of contractive blending (acquiring wholeness by drawing something/someone 'in') - IOW ANYTHING that touches on those qualities will 'fit' 16 and we can map-in the use of imagination/dreaming etc as part of the 'problem-solving', use of foresight, use of enthusiasm etc.

IF we focus on the line POSITION issue, where 16 ties to the senior minister line position, then we can see the nature of that minister well covered in the spectrum of 16, and from there, XOR-ing 16 with other hexagrams brings out that ministerial nature in every hexagram.
 

peter

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Chris,

I really wonder where you get so much time to write all this.

I don't want to form any sort of "secret society", I simply want to find out why Chinese chose just this way from all possibilities. I myself invent some things that are non-traditional, but I don't write about them on every corner. I asked people on this forum just about their view of "I Ching", but your particular view is too far from anything that has traditional sense. Why don't you play with bytes, for example? Why are you bound just to "I Ching" while you don't respect the huge pack of its traditional knowledge collected for 3000 years? This lack of respect you call "to be real"?

Hilary and all, sorry for this reply. I can't bear such irresponsible playings of words and symbols.

With best regards.
 

hilary

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Let us for heaven's sake keep discussing dreams and hexagrams, and steer well clear of discussing whether a) Chris uses too many words or b) the rest of us are out of date. I'll take my thoughts for Chris over to his 'tracking down the senior minister' page.

Do we all have dreams from different elements? Peter's might be watery, mine might be more associated with li, Bruce and LiSe seem to dream in thunder and elephants
.

Odd that no-one's mentioned 38 yet - 'seeing differently'?
 

hilary

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I think maybe I think of dreams as li or seeing because what I most remember from dreams is the pictures. (That's odd in itself, as sound and rhythm are far more important to me when awake.) Bruce, LiSe, do you dream more sounds?
 

heylise

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Feelings mostly. Feeling alone, or fear from being chased, or flying and enjoying it hugely - or the trouble of not being able to get high enough to escape whatever awful tries to get me. Lately the bad feelings seldom happen anymore.

Pictures are a close second. They are always there of course, but not always the most important part.

36, inside light, or night. Makes sense.

LiSe
 

peter

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Yes, I remembered that 16 (by R.Wilhelm at least) refers to music and melody. Possibly that's why "audial" people recognize 16 as dreaming - "dreaming in sounds". So for "visual" people it must be 35, and for "tactile" people... Let me touch... 45?

Hilary recalled 38, and I - with that my idea about Kan, and also involving Gen - thought just about the opposite: Kan on Gen, 39, "Obstacle" in usual translation.
 
B

bruce

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Hi Hilary,


"Bruce, LiSe, do you dream more sounds?"

mmm, no, but neither is sight/vision most predominant for me. In my dreams, all the sensuous stuff are excitements the inner world harbors. So I guess it is the excitement of the inner world that brings 16 at least close to the foreground of dreams. One of the fascinating things to me has always been the question "where does surprise come from in dreams?" If we are the dreamer shouldn?t we see things coming? But rather we dream in a state of unknowing or openness, shaken by what is appearing - the element of shock and/or surprise immerging from the earth.
 

luz

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I know! Sometimes I've dreamt that I'm playing cards (
) and I'm always amazed that I have no idea what the next card looks like until I turn it over!

There are a few dreams, though, where you actually see yourself planning out the plot. It happens seldom to me but I think it happens to everybody.
 
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bruce

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Hi Lightangel. The ole plot-a-dream, ey?


Lucid dreaming is fun, and can be a developed. It's not that hard to program or ready consciousness to awaken in dreams. You just tell yourself to awaken in a dream, before you fall asleep. It happens by accident but it can also be programmed to happen.

A trickier mental gymnastic is catching yourself at the exact moment you fall to sleep. If you fully awaken at the precise second you lose consciousness, you are in a state of observer. Ceasing thought flow during meditation is, for me, impossible, as 'secret of the golden flower' also determines. But catching consciousness as the lights go out to the outer world is a perfectly still place. The only thoughts you have are the ones you choose to have. The usual steady flow of thoughts, inner dialogue and vision stops, yet you are mentally awake and alert. It's a nice semanti.
 

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