hindsight

[dobro p]

Hey, have you ever done this? Got so worried or frustrated or baffled about something that you did a toss about it, then worked out an interpretation and done something (or nothing), and then a few weeks later... you look at the situation and your question and what the Yi gave you and you go 'well, of course...it's so obvious...why did I bother asking the Yi? It's so obvious.'

 

[elvis]

The I Ching is a language and manifests what is already in you but as CLASSES of meanings - the trick is mapping the correct class to an instance. Going to the YI first of all refects a lack of trust/development of your 'inner' nature realising things immediately - but the EIC shows you can develop that inner nature and so reflect classes quickly together with the loads of data available (accessed in the EIC through XORing).

Binary sequence rules dude! all else follows!

 

[elvis]

Foresight -> 16 (imagine future achievements/POVs)
Hindsight -> 09 (stand on past achievements/POVs)

 

[dobro p]

Way ahead of you, Elvis. I don't need a 'new improved' either. I watch me unfold, and occasionally I let my mind check in with the Yi, roots, warts and all. Then I compare, and reflect. Which is what I was doing when I asked the question 'you ever notice that what you asked was somewhat unnecessary in retrospect? You see what's less useful, and you're de facto onto what's useful. Your mind can take you to the point where you have to let go of what it offers, but no further.

 

[elvis]

Way ahead of you, Elvis. I don't need a 'new improved' either. ....You see what's less useful, and you're de facto onto what's useful. Your mind can take you to the point where you have to let go of what it offers, but no further.

your serial, directed, thinking operates recursively. Thus initial focus will cover basic classes - reflection will then elicit more recursion and so more classes and a finer level of understanding. The
sudden realisation mentioned covers the basics of associative memories that can start off
rigid and lacking connection to develop unconsciously into rich connections you then, and so LATER, notice and wonder how you missed that in the first place.

The more you develop your associative memory skills the less it takes to reach the rich connections, the more intuitive your understanding.

To DEVELOP your associative memory through use of the I Ching etc is achieved through the contributions of emotional assessments of situations where such will give you a holistic 'object' that can give you details never before considered possible. GIVEN those details so one can develop associative memories easier/quicker since the work covers the realm of the parallel, not just the serial.

 

[dobro p]

Ah, I see. But have you ever gone through that associative process you describe and later on gone 'it's so obvious to me now what I needed to know then'?

 

[elvis]

Ah, I see. But have you ever gone through that associative process you describe and later on gone 'it's so obvious to me now what I needed to know then'?

sure - it is a process employed in psychotherapy work where a past event is reconsidered given one's understanding of current toolset available compared to the past. It allows for re-assessment of those past events and to remove existing tension that those past events may still be creating (manifest in our continued re-run of those events as if still valid) and in doing so making richer associations that can then be instinctively set-off by some new, similiar, event and so better managed.

 

[dobro p]

Sure, of course it's a psychotherapeutic tool. It's also used in ice hockey, business, and wondering why you had a falling out with your girlfriend. But I was wondering if anybody here experiences what I described earlier specifically in their use of the Yi.

 

[cesca]

Yes, I experience that all the time. And it's obvious that things get more ... obvious ... as they unfold from implicate to explicate. It's not just hindsight, it's that possibilities are taking form and coming into 'ordinary' view.

Is that what you meant?

 

[rodaki]

I watch me unfold, and occasionally I let my mind check in with the Yi, roots, warts and all. Then I compare, and reflect. Which is what I was doing when I asked the question 'you ever notice that what you asked was somewhat unnecessary in retrospect? You see what's less useful, and you're de facto onto what's useful. Your mind can take you to the point where you have to let go of what it offers, but no further.

hi dobro,

hmm, not sure either about what you are referring to . . a similar thing that happens to me sometimes is when I get advice that seems a bit strange . . and then some time later I can read into the situation the reasons for the reading I got -I guess I could have read the contours of the situation already in the facts back then with my limited view but I wouldn't trust myself so much with it . . but is this what you mean? a kind of retrospective 'aha' moment?

i still have plenty of 'unnecessary asking' moments tho

 

[maremaria]

Hey, have you ever done this? Got so worried or frustrated or baffled about something that you did a toss about it, then worked out an interpretation and done something (or nothing), and then a few weeks later... you look at the situation and your question and what the Yi gave you and you go 'well, of course...it's so obvious...why did I bother asking the Yi? It's so obvious.'

Ummm… :bag:errr… :bag:It happens very often, usually when I’m “worried or frustrated or baffled about something” as you also said.

Funny , because when I first read your post , I read the word hindsight us hide-sight ( )
And this is how it fell when those questions are asked. Its like being in a dark room and you need a torch because you can’t see, can’t find the thing you are looking for. I don’t believe that the obvious is not always “obvious”, visible, understandable, etc..

My office is full of paper because the nature of my work. There are time I lose my calculator , stapler or punch. Sometimes I take my punch in my hand , put it from one place to other, while I’m looking for it rolleyes: ) lol. you know that .... I think, if I have understand well your question, its something like that .

 

[dobro p]

Yes, I experience that all the time. And it's obvious that things get more ... obvious ... as they unfold from implicate to explicate. It's not just hindsight, it's that possibilities are taking form and coming into 'ordinary' view.

Is that what you meant?

I'm not sure exactly what I meant, and that's why I asked about it. I know the symptoms, though. Something seems terribly important, so I do a toss about it. Later on, I go: "Now, why was it so important to do a toss? It seems so obvious now what was going on then and what I needed to do, and I wouldv'e done it anyway probably, with or without the consultation." If I'm right, the situation's like this: something seems important enough to consult the Yi on, but if I restrain that urge and just wait, two weeks from now I can look back at the 'terribly important question' and go: 'Oh, sure, I see now - that wasn't so important, and I just needed some time and distance to see what's what.'

 

[dobro p]

hi dobro,

hmm, not sure either about what you are referring to . . a similar thing that happens to me sometimes is when I get advice that seems a bit strange . . and then some time later I can read into the situation the reasons for the reading I got -I guess I could have read the contours of the situation already in the facts back then with my limited view but I wouldn't trust myself so much with it . . but is this what you mean? a kind of retrospective 'aha' moment?

i still have plenty of 'unnecessary asking' moments tho

It's the unnecessary asking moments that I'm asking about, yeah. And I'm wondering about the possibility of moving beyond them by being able to spot them as they arise and then just have the patience to wait it out. Or is it that asking the Yi actually helps the process of seeing what's what, that asking the Yi actually *changes* the way we see things so that in hindsight we go 'Oh yeah, I see it now; I didn't really have to ask that question."

 

[dobro p]

Ummm… :bag:errr… :bag:It happens very often, usually when I’m “worried or frustrated or baffled about something” as you also said.

So if it's emotional dissatisfaction or pain that's driving a lot of consultations, I've got two questions:

* Does the consultation help calm you down?

* Is the Yi actually designed to deal with people when they're emotionally torqued?

 

[maremaria]

that wasn't so important, and I just needed some time and distance to see what's what.'

Yes, this way works for me too.

So if it's emotional dissatisfaction or pain that's driving a lot of consultations, I've got two questions:

* Does the consultation help calm you down?

* Is the Yi actually designed to deal with people when they're emotionally torqued?

Does the consultation help calm you down?

Yes, most of the times... (i'm a scorpio, lol ) . its like i said above. The time I spend to see what the line means in a way its not a time i have to deal with the issue concerns me. there is a shift of my thoughts. Its like I disengage myself from my thoughts. Looking from a distance. Line 20.6 comes in my mind.
My lack of experience, re Yi helps me a bit, because i try to see the reading as I don't know anything about hex and lines. Its like studying, doing my homework. Consciously there is not a question seeking for an answer but I'm seeking for a story between the lines. Its like playing a game. This gives me the space to breath.

Is the Yi actually designed to deal with people when they're emotionally torqued?

Well, I can't tell .

There are some lines that I can’t say there is a profound wisdom into them. They talk about simple , common things. Some times when I talk with my nieces, some lines comes in my mind and they are just kids. Big deal!!! Yet, there is that question in my mind: “who/ what has written that book? What makes it so special? Is it the texts only or the way it works ? Those coincidences?

Someone in the past told me : “The river is sitting on its bank, sad because its didn’t know how to flow”. Obviously the river knows how to flow, but is it obvious always ?

For me, this is when the Yi comes, to remind me the obvious.

 

[steve]

Maybe you are in a state of mind at the time, then you take a good look
and you are now in in a different state of mind all together

my question on the subject i guess is "was it really a waste of time or did you achieve what you set out to do?"
i have to say that when no-one answered my question i dig deeper, I am glad in a way no-one did

an interesting question if you are familiar with the Yi ching

Steve

 

[rodaki]

my question on the subject i guess is "was it really a waste of time or did you achieve what you set out to do?"
i have to say that when no-one answered my question i dig deeper, I am glad in a way no-one did

Steve

I really like that and I think it agrees with what Maria wrote about Yi readings opening up a space for us to encounter what we know already . .
I've been trying to find the best way to approach those 'unnecessary' questions but the more I think abt it, it gets increasingly harder -I don't know if my thoughts are fuzzy or there's nothing to find there . .

the thing is, my own belief is that there is nothing 'unnecessary', nothing redundant . . if i start seeing actions of mine as such then that says something about the expectations i have from myself and the reasons i have these expectations -the standards according to which I 'measure' myself . . how do we deem an action 'unnecessary'? is it accompanied by regret? does it reveal a certain lack or want? and is this lack a thing to be rectified or an empty space, an opportunity to explore my 'weaknesses'? . . if so, unnecessary asking serves loads in getting to know myself -nothing redundant about it
. . or do i take 'unnecessary' as a sign of failure? then it gets even better cause that means that my engaging with Yi does not rob me from the natural process of learning (which is accomplished through mistakes), does not lock me up in whatever notion of 'proper' (but see, i have a built-in reaction system to given 'rights' and 'wrongs' so it's more important for me to discover how i set up my values rather than trying to fulfill any standard ones)

i guess the questions that i find most worrisome are those asked in order to not see, to not encounter myself with all my flaws, to patch up my own judgement with positive or negative directives and be done with questioning (kind of like checking my watch to make time pass instead of accepting its flow - tried it, it doesn't work )

so having said that, having asked 'unnecessarily' and having encountered a futility in it, would i want to avoid it? . . no, not really, unless questioning itself goes by unexamined, effecting a smokescreen to avoid the harder questions . . is this making sense?

anyway, excuse me if i babbled to much about how i see things, there is something i came across recently and stuck with me, which i think answers better the question of a way to recognize what is what:

texts read:

the carved stone receptacle into which water continuously flows is the tsukubai (蹲踞?), which translates literally as "crouch;" and the lower elevation of the basin requires the user to bend a little bit to reach the water.[2]
-The kanji written on its surface are without significance when read alone. If each character is read in combination with 口 (kuchi), (the form of the central bowl), then the combined characters become 吾, 唯, 足, 知 which reads clockwise as 'ware tada taru (wo) shiru'.
- and translates literally as "I only know plenty" (吾 = ware = I, 唯 = tada = only, 足 = taru = plenty, 知 = shiru = know). The meaning of the phrase carved into the top of the tsukubai is simply that "what one has is all one needs" . .
-Water trickles into the basin and if you are lucky enough to visit on a quiet day you will be able to hear the peaceful sound of water flowing in various locations within the grounds.

this tsukubai thing reminded me of hex.48, the gesture necessary to reach it hex.15 . . I'm not saying I know how to achieve that state but it seems like a great idea to live by . .

(more on the inscription at the end of this)

 

[dobro p]

my question on the subject i guess is "was it really a waste of time or did you achieve what you set out to do?"

Exactly. That's what's at the heart of my question. And near as I can tell, there's no way to find out.

 

[dobro p]

the thing is, my own belief is that there is nothing 'unnecessary', nothing redundant . . if i start seeing actions of mine as such then that says something about the expectations i have from myself and the reasons i have these expectations -the standards according to which I 'measure' myself . . how do we deem an action 'unnecessary'?

It's unecessary if you already have or know whatever it is you're foolishly reaching for. Like that Dogen quote you added to the end of your post. If you know it already, there's no need to go asking a book about it, right?

so having said that, having asked 'unnecessarily' and having encountered a futility in it, would i want to avoid it? . . no, not really, unless questioning itself goes by unexamined, effecting a smokescreen to avoid the harder questions . . is this making sense?

There's the difference between you and me. For me, if something's unnecessary, it's unnecessary.

 

[rodaki]

There's the difference between you and me. For me, if something's unnecessary, it's unnecessary.

at what point did it become so? I took it as a premise that since one does something, there is a necessity, at that moment, even of the unproductive kind . . but even then it's not redundant because it provides a chance to see things more clearly . .

hmm, I think I used the chance of your thread to understand better my own thoughts about this .. thanks for opening this up!

 

[dobro p]

Okay, I'm doing a poll. (Or does one 'take' a poll?) Anyway. I've got a question I'd like to ask the Yi. It involves about $200 and hours of time depending on whether (and how) I proceed with this. So, do you think I should NOT consult right now, and instead wait a couple of weeks to see if the unfolding of my life makes the question less necessary than it seems right now?

 

[elvis]

.. So, do you think I should NOT consult right now, and instead wait a couple of weeks to see if the unfolding of my life makes the question less necessary than it seems right now?

Make an EIC emotional assessment now, there is no specific question, there is a holistic assessment of the situation and so returning the class to which the instance best represents.

The assessment will contain the outcome of the development of that assessment. If things unfold without interruptions/distractions then the outcome will emerge as predicted. Implicit in that is your emotional assessment 'knew' the outcome before your rational consciousness did where consciousness will only see it all unfold and then realise asking was not necessary.

The differences will be between the generality of the emotional assessment compared to the precision that can come out of consciousness and so suppress emotional expression. IOW at times there will be congruence between conscious and unconscious but at other times consciousness will repress unconscious expressions due to being either lacking in precision and so 'wrong' or else 'inappropriate'. Picking up the incongruence is useful in planning actions based on emotional assessments.

 

[rodaki]

Okay, I'm doing a poll. (Or does one 'take' a poll?) Anyway. I've got a question I'd like to ask the Yi. It involves about $200 and hours of time depending on whether (and how) I proceed with this. So, do you think I should NOT consult right now, and instead wait a couple of weeks to see if the unfolding of my life makes the question less necessary than it seems right now?

i would consult Yi -just like I would ask a trusted friend for their opinion

:bows:

 

[dobro p]

I'd ask a trusted friend too, but not if I thought I was wasting their time and my own.